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I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/14/2008 10:54:00 PM   
JudgeDredd


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I'd appreciate "more experienced" players pointing out what I'm doing wrong.

I'm doing the first boot camp mission in the boot camp campaign...infantry only. My specific points are...
I am finding, generally, the command options very limited. I am new to this system of orders phase and reaction pohase and whilst I like the idea, the implementation is rather annoying.

Particularly, if I give my units a rush order, when they get to their destination, they simply stand still until the phase is over...whilst under intense fire...no kneeling...no return fire...just standing there.

Another thing in this particular battle, I've only ever seen the HQ unit able to request mortar fire once. How is it calculated when the HQ unit can request mortar fire? Seems to me, I should be able to call on it whenever and, when I do, only then does it come out of command unteil ready again...it seems everytime I want to call mortar fire, I am not in contact with it.


In general, as stated above, I find the command options very limited. Especially for the sub units under the command unit. In fact, you cannot move units individually of the HQ unit.

Some pointers on how to adapt to this very rigid and restrictive command structure would be appreciated. I'm getting nowhere fast.

Thx
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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/14/2008 11:11:45 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
Particularly, if I give my units a rush order, when they get to their destination, they simply stand still until the phase is over...whilst under intense fire...no kneeling...no return fire...just standing there.


Part of that is an animation issue. In actuality, they should kneel. Once they stop moving, you are no longer getting the game penalty for moving in terms of being targeted but it seems we could do a better job of showing that. Also, as soon as they phase ends, they will auto-switch to Defend orders and start firing as long as they've reached their Rush destination. The concept of the Base order and the Reactions means that you are locked into your Base Order for at least 40 seconds until you get your Reaction.

The Rush Base order trades speed for the inability to fire so it's not ideal for short distances where you'll get there in 10 seconds and spend 30 seconds sitting around. Conceptually, the men are running in their combat gear, then dropping to the ground and recovering before popping back up to start shooting. In time, we'll be able to animate all that and I think it will help the suspension of disbelief considerably.

quote:

Another thing in this particular battle, I've only ever seen the HQ unit able to request mortar fire once. How is it calculated when the HQ unit can request mortar fire? Seems to me, I should be able to call on it whenever and, when I do, only then does it come out of command unteil ready again...it seems everytime I want to call mortar fire, I am not in contact with it.


Very bad luck there. For Germans platoons, on average the HQ has a 50% chance on any given Orders Phase of being in contact (green icon) with a forward observer to call in artillery.

quote:

In general, as stated above, I find the command options very limited. Especially for the sub units under the command unit. In fact, you cannot move units individually of the HQ unit.


How's that? Which order are you using? I'm regularly able to make individual unit moves without the HQ.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/14/2008 11:31:16 PM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
In general, as stated above, I find the command options very limited. Especially for the sub units under the command unit. In fact, you cannot move units individually of the HQ unit.
Some pointers on how to adapt to this very rigid and restrictive command structure would be appreciated. I'm getting nowhere fast.
You can move individuals independently of the HQ unit once you give the HQ unit its orders. They will be restricted to the degree in which they are free to act depending on this order. One group for example cannot Rush and the other back away. You may however Rush one squad forward and Rush one back.

The orders are meant to be restrictive. The orders are suppose to be very short and not be something that it would take 5 minutes to convey to each unit. And to keep each squad from acting as its led by a general who only has to keep 200 paces from another general to do whatever he wants.

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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/14/2008 11:37:27 PM   
JudgeDredd


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quote:

How's that? Which order are you using? I'm regularly able to make individual unit moves without the HQ.


For example, when I start the boot camp, I wanted to get my two squads to move forward to the tree line whilst giving the HQ unit (which I now see has a green icon for srty at the beginning)...but the only orders available to them was defend....wait a minute...let me check my facts before mentioning this...

Right. Here's a picture. I haven't given ANY units any orders. I select one of my non HQ units, and all I have is the Defend command.

It could be I'm just not used to the game mechanics and command options/structure, being a long and recent Combat Mission gamer....but the example I'm showing here is exactly what I mean about limited options meaning my units are tied to what my HQ are doing.

I may well get used to it...but at the moment, I'm finding it lacking in what I want ti to do.

This picture shows no commands given to any units on the first turn.





Attachment (1)

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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/14/2008 11:37:55 PM   
JudgeDredd


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This picture shows the Orders Phase Turn 2. I have just ordered the HQ unit to call arty. Selecting one of the other squads (as I've highlighted here) and right clicking for the menu options...they can do nothing. This is the orders phase. Should I not be able to order this unit to advance? Target smoke? rush?




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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/14/2008 11:44:36 PM   
Mobius


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If you click on a non-HQ squad it will show the order of the platoon.  If there isn't an order it will be Defend.  Click and give the HQ unit its order first then go to each squad.  You can then tailor their orders to a degree from the HQ's. 
If after you do all this and then go back and give the HQ a completely different type of order, all the squads will have their orders reset again to that of the HQ unit  (you don't need to erase all their sub-orders.)  Just remember that if you change the HQ units order type, you reset the squads orders.

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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/14/2008 11:46:58 PM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
This picture shows the Orders Phase Turn 2. I have just ordered the HQ unit to call arty. Selecting one of the other squads (as I've highlighted here) and right clicking for the menu options...they can do nothing. This is the orders phase. Should I not be able to order this unit to advance? Target smoke? rush?


Give the HQ unit other orders now. He and his platoon are just set to defend. They can do other things once the artillery is on call.


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panzer

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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/14/2008 11:49:07 PM   
Capitaine

 

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JD, basically you can't order each squad as you see fit.  If your HQ squad is calling artillery, then the other squads can't take action either.  Think of this as having one unit: The platoon.  Occasionally you'll be able to have individual squads do different things (see: Engage order), but as a rule of thumb they are all one unit.

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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/14/2008 11:56:56 PM   
JudgeDredd


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Ok...I get that. Still kind of restrictive in that I effectively have to work with one big squad (HQ and two squads) as opposed to having three squads where I have control over all of them.

Again, as I say, it's my view from being a Combat Mission player.

I'll have to try and take PoE's advice and get rid of all combat mission related info in the head and work with the model...my own, personal initial thoughts are, it's restrictive.

But, I've only played the training scenario and the first boot camp mission (both I have performed terribly). So I will dig in. If I bring anything to your attention it's because I don't like how it works, or I don't understand how it works. I am not whinging about something for whinging sake. If you have a valid rebuttal to my question, then I am more than willing to change my view and adapt if that's what it takes.

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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/15/2008 12:05:25 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
For example, when I start the boot camp, I wanted to get my two squads to move forward to the tree line whilst giving the HQ unit (which I now see has a green icon for srty at the beginning)...but the only orders available to them was defend....wait a minute...let me check my facts before mentioning this...
Right. Here's a picture. I haven't given ANY units any orders. I select one of my non HQ units, and all I have is the Defend command.


Ok, that's the problem. You have to select the platoon HQ to change the base orders. The non-HQ units can only select from the base order "menu" that their platoon HQ has chosen. By default they start in Defend if you haven't given them other orders. Select the HQ unit on your HUD (the one with the star on its icon) and right click on the screen and you'll see a much larger orders menu show up. You should also read the section in the manual on this (5.2, p.27).

Note that within the Defend order, your sub-units will have options like Defend -> Move, Defend -> Hold Fire and Defend -> Stay but they must follow the orders set for the platoon. Then in the Reaction phase a set of reactions is available to adjust your orders.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/15/2008 12:08:09 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
This picture shows the Orders Phase Turn 2. I have just ordered the HQ unit to call arty. Selecting one of the other squads (as I've highlighted here) and right clicking for the menu options...they can do nothing. This is the orders phase. Should I not be able to order this unit to advance? Target smoke? rush?


The spot fire order is restrictive in that sense. The platoon stays put while the platoon leader deals with the FO and calls in the fire order. After that, you can set a new base order and get on with things. The most flexible base order is Engage and others each have their purpose. The best way to really learn them is to read through the descriptions on pp.33-39 so that you know what your options are.

It should start to make a lot more sense soon, I hope!

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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/15/2008 12:12:48 AM   
Capitaine

 

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The platoon order system seems much more authentic to me than being able to micromanage each squad relatively independently.  My longtime understanding has been that maneuver in battle was rather restrictive, and having the limitations PCK imposes is very faithful to the real thing.  I've played through the tutorial, all the boot camp scns, one set battle (Mcensk Recon) and the first German Campaign scn and these orders have become much more familiar and understandable from the conceptual point of view.  Give it some time and you'll begin to see the beauty of the system.

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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/15/2008 3:35:40 AM   
z1812


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Hi All,

I have not bought the game yet and one of the reasons is the restrictive nature of the orders to squads. I have no direct military experience other than reading history and tactics as well as being a wargamer for more years than I care to remember.

I did try the Winter Command demo and did not like it because of the restrictive nature of orders. In a previous post where I asked about this Erik confirmed that it had not changed with Kharkov.

It seems to me that within the platoon context, fixing an enemy , then flanking, and hopefully finishing an enemy requires a squad to provide cover, while another flanks and with perhaps even another providing a diversion. Needless to say this intends that sometimes squads be given seperate orders from the HQ unit. This is where a "command range" plays its part. To far out of it and you suffer a penalty.

Bear in mind that I enjoy this type of micro-management that others may not.

Of course game systems are different and always a matter of taste. I would be glad to see PCK become a very, very succesful title. Who knows, perhaps future releases will have an option for squads to act independently with-in their command structure.

Regards John

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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/15/2008 3:40:57 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812
It seems to me that within the platoon context, fixing an enemy , then flanking, and hopefully finishing an enemy requires a squad to provide cover, while another flanks and with perhaps even another providing a diversion. Needless to say this intends that sometimes squads be given seperate orders from the HQ unit. This is where a "command range" plays its part. To far out of it and you suffer a penalty.
Bear in mind that I enjoy this type of micro-management that others may not.


Well, I guess you'll be happy to hear that all this is perfectly possible in Panzer Command and in fact I've done it many times. Engage base order for Platoon. Set two squads to Engage -> Target, wait until enemy is at least Suppressed, set another squad to Engage - Move to get into close range on the flank for more lethal fire. Set the third squad to Engage -> Move closer to some cover to draw enemy fire if necessary from the other moving squad. If squads are outside 150m from their HQ, they take an initiative penalty.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/15/2008 3:51:27 AM   
Mobius


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In the PCK system the commands come from above and are implemented by the sub-units. Because the sub-units must work under the same orders they are best served to stay together to perform their tasks in a cohesive manner. This is different than being forced to stay within an arbitrary distance limit.

Regards, Steve

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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/15/2008 3:51:54 AM   
Capitaine

 

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Well, if you give the Engage order (which really seems to me to be the general order for when in contact with the enemy) you can move with some and target with others.  That is pin and flank as you put it.  You can do what you are saying in the game already.  You just need to appreciate the nature of your command limitations and work within them.

I share the game design philosophy that command limitations on unit control are essential for a realistic simulation of combat.  Other games don't share this view and allow totally unfettered movement.  I don't believe there is anything in PCK -- at least that I've seen so far -- that restricts you from doing anything units in real life can do.  It does restrict you from doing what real units most certainly would not do, or what would be very unlikely.  The degree of coordination allowed by some games, including such venerable titles as ASL, is just a huge stretch, but many gamers come to believe such activity is realistic due to the game saying so.

If there's a certain Order circumstance that you think constrains you more than reason compels, make a case and maybe Erik and Koios will consider a change.  I'd be interested too b/c I don't think *real life* combat doctrine should be denied in a game; controlled yes, denied no.

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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/15/2008 4:23:49 AM   
z1812


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Hi Erik,

Thanks for the quick response. I have been watching the threads at the Wargamer and over at Battlefront in addition to these. I must say that I have seldom observed anyone to answer questions so quickly or to be so responsive to customer concerns and requests. Stridor and Mobius have also done a great job.

I noticed how quickly that business with IE7 was settled. All done in a polite and thoughtful fashion I might add. Not to mention the 3 quick hot fixes released for minor problems in the game.

I am wondering if the plan for the continued development of this series intends backwards compatibility with all previous releases.

Regards John



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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/15/2008 4:25:50 AM   
jomni


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I actually find the command feature interseting and it adds to the challenge.


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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/15/2008 4:34:41 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812
Thanks for the quick response. I have been watching the threads at the Wargamer and over at Battlefront in addition to these. I must say that I have seldom observed anyone to answer questions so quickly or to be so responsive to customer concerns and requests. Stridor and Mobius have also done a great job.
I noticed how quickly that business with IE7 was settled. All done in a polite and thoughtful fashion I might add. Not to mention the 3 quick hot fixes released for minor problems in the game.


Thank you, we're doing the best we can. We all put a lot of time and effort into this release and have been greatly looking forward to sharing it with everyone!

quote:

I am wondering if the plan for the continued development of this series intends backwards compatibility with all previous releases.


Yes, in the same way as Winterstorm and Kharkov - so the next release, which we're planning will cover the Western Front, would include updated Winterstorm content if you own Winterstorm and updated Kharkov concent if you also own Kharkov.

Regards,

- Erik

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Erik Rutins
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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/15/2008 4:34:43 AM   
rickier65

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812

Hi Erik,

Thanks for the quick response. I have been watching the threads at the Wargamer and over at Battlefront in addition to these. I must say that I have seldom observed anyone to answer questions so quickly or to be so responsive to customer concerns and requests. Stridor and Mobius have also done a great job.

I noticed how quickly that business with IE7 was settled. All done in a polite and thoughtful fashion I might add. Not to mention the 3 quick hot fixes released for minor problems in the game.

I am wondering if the plan for the continued development of this series intends backwards compatibility with all previous releases.

Regards John





In another thread here somewhere, Erik indicated that was the plan with future games, ie the next release bringing along PCOWS and PCK (for those that owned them).

I for one think thats a great approach.

Rick

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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/15/2008 4:46:23 AM   
jomni


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Well they showed that it's possible already through PC:OWS and PC:K combos.
I'm playing OWS campaign now on Kharkov and sees some improvements.

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RE: I'm having a couple of issues... - 4/15/2008 5:38:35 AM   
z1812


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Hi All,

Thanks for the response to my question about backwards compatibility. This feature adds great value to the game system.

Based upon what I see and hear about the game, and considering the high level of support, I will be purchasing it by download this evening.

regards John

< Message edited by z1812 -- 4/15/2008 7:22:26 AM >

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