Matrix Games Forums

Deal of the Week - Pride of NationsA new update for Piercing Fortress EuropaNew screenshots for War in the West!Pike & Shot is now available!Server Maintenance Battle Academy 2 gets updated!Deal of the Week: Advanced Tactics Gold Ask Buzz Aldrin!Pike & Shot gets Release Date and Twitch Session!Deal of the Week Espana 1936
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: PzcK vs CMBB

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Discontinued Games] >> Panzer Command: Kharkov >> RE: PzcK vs CMBB Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/29/2008 9:38:43 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 1413
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
T5 for PCK:

I don't want to speak too soon, but this is a cakewalk.  I just finished off the last of the SU76s.  The BA64s are dead.  One T70 is dead.  Infantry is the only real threat left.  The P4s have turned their attention to the company coming down the RR tracks.  It previously killed one and now has one suppressed.  On the other side of the map, I accidently moved two squads out into the open when I was trying to move a platoon HQ up to a jump off point.  I w/d them in reaction with no issues.  I did have to rush a couple of HT out of LOS of a T70.  They started the turn in LOS after the T70 came out of a clump of woods about 200m away.  I had to sit through 40 seconds of the T70 missing shot after shot until it was distract by a 50mm mortar moving a few hundred meters away.  At least the 50s are good for something.

Comments:  I am not sure what I am doing differently between PCK and CMBB.  I have totally different results.  In PCK, no more than 3 hits were scored by the SU76s on the P4s.  The only AFV they killed was the 251 sprinting across the map.  In CMBB, the initial volleys from the SU76s and the P4s were off, but they homed in quickly.  It also seems like I am able to suppress the infantry in CMBB more readily, but they recover quickly after the fire is lifted.  In PCK, it seems that once the infantry is suppressed, the odds are they won't recover and eventually are dead.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 121
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/29/2008 9:39:52 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 1413
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

In PCK this depends on a "likely penetration check" which means that it wouldn't fire on a SU-76 on its own. Right now, you'd have to order it to area fire at the SU-76 to get it to button.


Even on an open top AFV where you could kill a crew or passenger?

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 122
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/29/2008 9:49:30 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32945
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
I don't want to speak too soon, but this is a cakewalk.  I just finished off the last of the SU76s.  The BA64s are dead.  One T70 is dead.  Infantry is the only real threat left.  The P4s have turned their attention to the company coming down the RR tracks.  It previously killed one and now has one suppressed.  On the other side of the map, I accidently moved two squads out into the open when I was trying to move a platoon HQ up to a jump off point.  I w/d them in reaction with no issues.  I did have to rush a couple of HT out of LOS of a T70.  They started the turn in LOS after the T70 came out of a clump of woods about 200m away.  I had to sit through 40 seconds of the T70 missing shot after shot until it was distract by a 50mm mortar moving a few hundred meters away.  At least the 50s are good for something.


It seems the Panzer IVs did much better for you in PCK, which swung the balance. What ranges were you generally firing at in PCK and CMBB? In a small scenario, the difference can come down to a few good shots and the smaller it is, the larger a role luck plays as well. I'd be interested to look at the scenario file too, when you get a chance.

[qutoe]Comments:  I am not sure what I am doing differently between PCK and CMBB.  I have totally different results.  In PCK, no more than 3 hits were scored by the SU76s on the P4s.  The only AFV they killed was the 251 sprinting across the map.  In CMBB, the initial volleys from the SU76s and the P4s were off, but they homed in quickly.  It also seems like I am able to suppress the infantry in CMBB more readily, but they recover quickly after the fire is lifted.  In PCK, it seems that once the infantry is suppressed, the odds are they won't recover and eventually are dead.

Infantry in PCK has roughly a 50% chance to recover from suppression each phase and I see them recover regularly. If they're in a very bad spot as far as the fire their taking, then of course staying there may not be a healthy thing. They can also be kept suppressed if the fire is pinning them, as you can recover from pinned to suppressed in one phase but not all they way from pinned to unsuppressed.

Regards,

- Erik


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 123
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/29/2008 9:51:18 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32945
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
Even on an open top AFV where you could kill a crew or passenger?


Small arms won't automatically fire on vehicles in PCK unless they think they can penetrate them. They can be ordered to and open topped and unbuttoned vehicles are vulnerable to crew casualties in such cases, though they'll usually button up/duck down before that happens.


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 124
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/29/2008 9:59:37 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 1413
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
T5 in CMBB

I still suck.  Two P4s down and the T70s are coming on support by the two (one?) SU76.  That last AC is still hanging around suppressing some infantry.  I have started dropping mortar rounds on one SU to see if I can suppress it.  I still have almost a company of PG left, but one platoon is stuck in the RR station and the other tow are in the woods waiting to jump off.  They have a lot of open ground to cover and I can see T70s hanging around along with at least a platoon of infantry.  If I can just KO the SUs, I have a chance to take on the T70s before range closes and the 45mm becomes a threat.

Comments:  I still suck.

Erik,

The ranges were generally between 800m and 600m in both.  The final firefight in PCK was about 600m.  The ongoing fight in CMBB has not been below 650m.  All hits have been front hull or turret.

It may be just the fact the infantry is walking down the middle of the road on the suppression issue.  One difference between CMBB and PCK is that the P4s in CMBB engaged the RR track infantry with hull MG while also shooting at the SUs.  This kept that infantry company in check for a while.  In PCK, they kept switching targets, but never engaged two at the same time.

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 4/29/2008 10:01:12 PM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 125
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/29/2008 10:16:04 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 1413
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
T6 in CMBB:

I don't suck as much.  The P4 killed the last two SUs just in time to start suppressing the infantry coming down the RR track.  I have given it an armor covered arc and hunt command towards the center of the map to hopefully pick off the T70s.  For those not familiar with CM.  The covered arc tells the P4 to only engage enemy in an arc set by me.  An armor CA means only engage armor.  It will ignore the CA if threatened outside the arc.  Hunt means move until a valid target appears, stop, engage, keep moving if enemy is destroyed.  I think its similar to defend move in PCK.  I am having all infnatry remain in place until I either win or lose the armor battle.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 126
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/29/2008 10:29:49 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 1413
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
T6 in PCK:

I am 3/4 of the way to victory.  I am bounding the P4 platoon to the RR station.  My infantry is somewhat useless at this point.  I have set up a platoon in woods in the middle of the map to cover the P4s flanks, but the P4s are picking off the T70s as they do their bounding movement.

Comments:  something about this was way too easy.  It may have been the initial setup.  I let the computer pick setup in PCK and then copied it CMBB.  I do think something is a little off in PCK.  6 SU76s sitting in LOS of three P4gs should have taken out at least 1, probably 2, before being wiped out.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 127
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/29/2008 10:38:54 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32945
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
Comments:  something about this was way too easy.  It may have been the initial setup.  I let the computer pick setup in PCK and then copied it CMBB.  I do think something is a little off in PCK.  6 SU76s sitting in LOS of three P4gs should have taken out at least 1, probably 2, before being wiped out.


Tough to judge on only one replay without seeing the scenario. Luck can play a role especially at >700m ranges when initial hits become less likely. Although the SU-76s have decent guns, their guns are not as good as those on the Panzer IVs, nor is their armor able to handle much, nor are they as accurate. Each SU-76 is worth 29 points in PCK. Each Panzer IV(G?) is worth 62, so 3 vs. 6 is an even matchup, though not necessarily at all ranges.


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 128
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/29/2008 10:41:33 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 1413
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
T7 in PCK

All three P4s firing at the rifle company on the RR tracks broke their back.  Over 80 seconds, three squads dead, the rest heading for the hills.  But it is a little dicey on the right flank.  All that infantry and the remaining T70s are making a run at the Soviet objective in the middle of the map.  They killed a second 251.  A remaing 251, two 50mm mortars, and a gaggle of infantry are holding them off.  I would like to send on P4 over there, but am not sure I want to deal with the command issues.  I may just send the whole platoon over.

Comments:  One of the 50mm mortars is taking an immense amount of fire and shrugging it off.  It is the first real heavy fire any of my infantry have seen.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 129
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/29/2008 10:50:17 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 1413
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
T7 and T8 in CMBB

I suck again.  That SU76 I thought I had killed wasn't dead.  It engaged my P4 at the end T8 from 800m just as it cam around a corner.  Now I have to deal with that threat.  If I had been more careful in tracking how many SUs my P4 killed I wouldn't have been surprised.  One of my issues is keeping the two games seperate in my mind.

What is amusing is that in RL, I couldn't have done the coordination I have in either game.  I would have had the infantry jump off at a selected time without knowing what threats had been dealt with.  My god's eye lets me hold back the infantry until the armor affair is settled.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 130
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/29/2008 10:51:54 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 1413
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
I am going to finish up each game and post results.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 131
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/29/2008 11:02:23 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32945
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
What is amusing is that in RL, I couldn't have done the coordination I have in either game.  I would have had the infantry jump off at a selected time without knowing what threats had been dealt with.  My god's eye lets me hold back the infantry until the armor affair is settled.


At this scale? I'm not sure why you couldn't have held your platoon back - you're basically a company commander and you do have radios and platoon commanders.


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 132
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/29/2008 11:02:40 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 1413
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
Here is the final screen:

In PCK, three turns later:

I kept my P4 platoon together to clear out the train station. They killed the last T70 from across the map. That allowed to rush up my 231 AC and that help wipe out the infantry on the right flank.






Attachment (1)

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 133
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/29/2008 11:44:07 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 1413
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
CMBB final

I suck, but not as bad as I thought. I had to make an infantry assault to finally push the soviets to the breaking point. I had already captured the objective, but it was a hidden objective and the soviets built their last stand around the wrong flag.

My lone P4 had a final confrontation with an SU76 and won, but in the middlw of the fight a soviet mg killed the TC, who was unbottoned. While shocked the P4 shrugged off 3 hits. I was very lucky. The P4 went on to wipe out the last soviet armor and pin the cluster of squads defending the false flag. I had to do the final assault to end the game and took a few casualties doing it.

The final score really doesn't reflect how close it was. If I had lost my last P4, it was over. If they had managed to take and hold the true objective, I would have had at best a draw.

Comments: I gave myself 45 minutes in this and in the end, if it had been 30 minutes, I would have lost.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 134
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/29/2008 11:57:05 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 1413
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
I am not sure what to make of the completely different way the two games played out.  I am going to replay the PCK scenario again straight through and see if it was a fluke.

Off hand I would say the PCK AI waited too long to bring the T70s and infantry compay on its left into play.  If it had been coordinated with the SU76s and the company on its right.  They may have taken both objectives and decimated my infantry. 

What I have a problem with is the "uberness" of the P4gs.  6 SU76s should have been able to get more than 3 hits on 3 P4s not moving in open at 650m on average.  I am going to go back to the editor and check the experience/morale of the SUs and see if they are OK.

The other thing was the complete uselessness of infantry on both sides.  I am not sure what to make of that either.  Is it they were handled badly by both myself and the AI.  I don't know.

Now as to why I did this...I have seen BFC fans completely ignore any thing that remotely competes with CMBB.  I am hoping some of them look at this and it allows them to make a rational decision.  Face it CMBB/AK is dead.  So, depending on your priorities, you should look at any new bandwagon that comes to town.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 135
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/30/2008 12:01:05 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32945
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Those results actually came out pretty similar - I think a lot swung on the fact that your Panzer IVs won the fight against the SU-76s in PCK more handily early on than in CM, which is what made the rest of the battle more of a tough fight in CM, though it ended up with a Major Victory and comparable casualties from the look of it.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 136
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/30/2008 12:02:34 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32945
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
I am not sure what to make of the completely different way the two games played out.  I am going to replay the PCK scenario again straight through and see if it was a fluke.


Luck can definitely be a factor in a scenario of this size. Could you post a copy of both scenarios here too so that we can give it a try as well?

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 137
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/30/2008 12:04:42 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32945
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
I think it's also important not to draw conclusions that are too large out of a single scenario replay given luck and random factors. The games are different, but I think based on a larger pool of experience, impresions and feedback the other questions can be put in perspective. I think you highlighted some differences and also showed that close to the same scenario on close to the same map can end up with very similar results.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 138
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/30/2008 12:12:22 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 1413
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
How do I post a non image file?

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 139
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/30/2008 12:14:43 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32945
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Zip them each up and post them as attachments.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 140
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/30/2008 12:21:28 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 1413
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
OK, but I only see a way to attach images.  It will only let me attch a jpg or txt file.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 141
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/30/2008 12:42:58 AM   
Rick

 

Posts: 12367
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: offline
Thanks for the replay, it was interesting to see how they played out.

I played a fair bit of CMBB, but let it slide a while back. Now I"m enjoying PCK. There are a few thing I didn't like about CMBB, but thats true about most games. And I know that PC:K has already addressed two of the things I didn't like about CMBB - the Campaign capability and the Infantry soldier images. I havent played enough PC:K to know how it will handle the third.

But in any event - I enjoyed CMBB, and I'm now enjoying PC:K, and whenever I see a post where Erik mentions what they'd like to add in next release - well I can only hope PC:K is successful enough to make sure we get another release -- because it sound to me like the series is only getting better.

So thanks for the replay Wood!

Rick




< Message edited by Rick -- 4/30/2008 12:44:55 AM >

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 142
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/30/2008 12:56:34 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32945
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
OK, but I only see a way to attach images.  It will only let me attch a jpg or txt file.


Ah, sorry - please try posting them in the Mods sub-forum.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 143
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/30/2008 1:02:12 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 1413
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
Done

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 144
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/30/2008 1:15:48 AM   
Stridor


Posts: 5078
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline
Thank you thewood for doing this.

Q. Which one did you have more fun playing?

It would be even better if we had some historical battle of appropriate scale and with accurate historical evidence so we could compare both to the harshest & fairest critic of all, reality.

I am sure that CM with its long and illustrious history as already had that comparison at some point.

(in reply to Rick)
Post #: 145
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/30/2008 2:05:16 AM   
Michael Dorosh


Posts: 378
Joined: 3/2/2003
Status: offline
Excellent comparison, thewood...was tempted to try something like this myself. Always cool to see the same map done in two different game formats.

_____________________________

The Tactical Wargamer


(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 146
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/30/2008 2:24:48 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 1413
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
I actually had more fun with CMBB, mainly because of the lopsided nature of the engagement.  Once the SU76s were gone, it was basically over except some minor skirmishes that occurred because I was rushing to get the scenario done.

Frankly, the platoon orders continue to annoy me.  Its not that I don't mind the concept, but I have to constantly make adjustments to orders.  Part of that is that the hot keys aren't second nature yet, but getting a platoon into a non-linear tree line is a click fest unless I want squads hanging out of cover.  This is what makes it artificial feelin.  If I could detach, with penalties, I would find it much more believable.

I have decided to replay PCK as both german and soviet.  That should give a clue as to whether the AI can't handle it or the battle was just plain lopsided.

The turns also played faster in PCK because the better tools for situational awareness meant I didn't have run through the turn ten times to see what happened.

(in reply to Michael Dorosh)
Post #: 147
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/30/2008 2:26:13 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 1413
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh

Excellent comparison, thewood...was tempted to try something like this myself. Always cool to see the same map done in two different game formats.


Hey, why aren't you at the annex defending all that is good.

(in reply to Michael Dorosh)
Post #: 148
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/30/2008 3:20:06 AM   
76mm


Posts: 2133
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Moscow
Status: online
Wood,

Thanks a lot for the AAR, very interesting. I've bought this game but haven't played it yet, too busy. I'd like to set up side-by-side scenarios as well but won't have a chance for a while.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 149
RE: PzcK vs CMBB - 4/30/2008 3:34:55 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32945
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
Frankly, the platoon orders continue to annoy me.  Its not that I don't mind the concept, but I have to constantly make adjustments to orders.  Part of that is that the hot keys aren't second nature yet, but getting a platoon into a non-linear tree line is a click fest unless I want squads hanging out of cover.  This is what makes it artificial feelin.  If I could detach, with penalties, I would find it much more believable.


Hm - the worst case scenario with platoon orders is that you have to click once to move each squad to exactly where you want. Isn't this effectively the same as in CM where you're ordering individual squads?


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 150
Page:   <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Discontinued Games] >> Panzer Command: Kharkov >> RE: PzcK vs CMBB Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.133