RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions

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RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions

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RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/17/2008 8:01:13 PM

bardolph

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I keep seeing comments about how the maps need to be bigger.
But the average frontage for a WW2 battalion on the attack was from 500-1000 meters, so it would seem to me the maps are pretty close. Remember that these actions did not take place in a strategic vacuum, there would be other units operating on either flank the vast majority of the time, and units weren't supposed to cross over into other units area of operations. Prevents blue on blue and all that.

Since the manuever element is apparently supposed to be platoons in PC (with some ordering of squads), I am assuming the game is aimed at company to battalion level actions, in which case the maps are about the right size.

If you wanted to play regimental level actions they would need to be about twice the size they are now, but that is stepping a level of command higher than the game is really suited for methinks. I know gamers have a tendency towards playing games at larger than intended levels...we used to play Panzerblitz with all the maps and all the counters

(in reply to marcusm)

Post #: 61

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/17/2008 9:41:52 PM

James Crowley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bardolph

I keep seeing comments about how the maps need to be bigger.
But the average frontage for a WW2 battalion on the attack was from 500-1000 meters, so it would seem to me the maps are pretty close. Remember that these actions did not take place in a strategic vacuum, there would be other units operating on either flank the vast majority of the time, and units weren't supposed to cross over into other units area of operations. Prevents blue on blue and all that.

Since the manuever element is apparently supposed to be platoons in PC (with some ordering of squads), I am assuming the game is aimed at company to battalion level actions, in which case the maps are about the right size.

If you wanted to play regimental level actions they would need to be about twice the size they are now, but that is stepping a level of command higher than the game is really suited for methinks. I know gamers have a tendency towards playing games at larger than intended levels...we used to play Panzerblitz with all the maps and all the counters

Allowing for set-up zones, the actual distance between opposing forces can be less than 500m at the start of a battle. This can lead to a situation where there is very little room for maneouver and, consequently, few tactical options available.

This might apply in some historical situations i.e. where both sides were entrenched and one side launches an offensive. However, in most maneouver battles the start line for an attack was, generally, further than 500m away from the enemy.

Larger maps would allow more scenario types and tactical options and enable, for instance, the defender to be able to fall back, progressively over a decent distance.

Also, generally, German optics were superior to Soviet optics and their tanks could succesfully engage at much longer ranges. This gave their smaller forces a balance against the numerically superior Soviet tanks. This cannot be replicated on smaller maps.

I would agree, that for infantry based battles and certainly for urban battles, the current maps are sufficient.

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Post #: 62

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/17/2008 9:50:42 PM

Michael Dorosh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bardolph

I keep seeing comments about how the maps need to be bigger.
But the average frontage for a WW2 battalion on the attack was from 500-1000 meters, so it would seem to me the maps are pretty close.

Real attacks took place with a lot more artillery, and in much more depth, though.

But I'm not arguing the size of the maps - a 1 x 1 km map in CM works fine. The CM maps tend to be more concentrated in terms of terrain elements - I think most tactical wargames do that. PC:K uses realistic terrain (compare to the GoogleEarth preview for a look at what I mean!) which may be a disadvantage ironically enough in some respects. But I think they're fine also.

< Message edited by Michael Dorosh -- 4/17/2008 9:52:49 PM >

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Post #: 63

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/19/2008 3:31:18 PM

Erik Rutins

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<rebump as a reminder to post impressions here>

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Post #: 64

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/20/2008 2:27:29 AM

Motomouse

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Today I had some spare time available. Time to play PC Kharkov, CMBB, TOW, and CMSF. I like the whole bunch and every one has something special where it excells and a few shortcomings. I was not impressed to much by the first PC Winterstorm release (beeing a Koios Software Tin Soldiers JC Fan in the first place, I really have to get Alexander anytime soon), PCW was a good game, but i did just not get really warm to it (Perhaps setting too white and cold ;-). They did a great Job improving PC with the Kharkov Release in my opinion!

I am really enjoying the random battle generator (did not expect it it), fought some really nice battles. I think there went a lot of thought into the system, have to look into the template system later. Thats why I mentioned the other games up there in the first place, I think the editor and random generator are really a strong point of Panzer Command. Especially if i want to enjoy a laid back quick game, I really prefer to have a lot of single missions available. When I dont want to take care of every single unit, I can appreciate an AI surprise tank pack that shoots me to pieces after I thought everything is won already.

Later I will look into the campaign game, but for starters I am having a lot of fun with the PC Kharkov Battle Generator!

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 65

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/20/2008 6:51:29 AM

Erik Rutins

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Thanks Motomouse, I'm glad you're having fun!

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Post #: 66

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/21/2008 11:19:46 PM

Webizen

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Initially this game wasn't on my radar for purchase (prefer more operational/strategic games); however, after reading this thread and others in this forum, I've made the purchase. The fact that it is PBEM enabled also helped as I don't have a great desire for RTS games anymore.

Update: Game installed and downloaded the 1.01c beta update and installed it. Barely have had time to look at the game, but it is looking like some good war gaming ahead.

< Message edited by Webizen -- 4/22/2008 3:20:48 AM >

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Post #: 67

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/23/2008 7:12:40 PM

Erik Rutins

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Thanks, Webizen, hope you have a lot of fun with it.

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Post #: 68

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/23/2008 8:09:44 PM

freeboy

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if I get the phisical copy do I need ie7?

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 69

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/23/2008 8:26:09 PM

Erik Rutins

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We've already released a v1.01c beta update that removes the IE7 requirement and is just IE6 compatible now (which comes included with out of the box XP).

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Post #: 70

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/24/2008 4:33:26 PM

freeboy

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go figure that after having lots of flex time all winter, I take a vacation and you release this and then start a job working long hours LOL looks great .. cheers to the team

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Post #: 71

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/26/2008 4:18:09 PM

Erik Rutins

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<bump> for new lurkers...

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Post #: 72

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/26/2008 7:21:13 PM

Redleg

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Just finished creating and playing my first scenario. The richness of this game and the Random Battle Generator, Scenario Editor, and Random Campaign generator is just great. A real "Gamers Game". I haven't attempted creating a campaign from scratch yet so cannot comment on that.

This game is all I wanted and more. Thanks Matrix.

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Post #: 73

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/26/2008 10:18:22 PM

kam99

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Redleg,

I have downloaded your scenario and will try it later. I have had a go at campaign creation using the guide supplied by WhiteOwl:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1781397

It was relatively easy to expand his core force of a single platoon of 3 tanks into a group of 2 tank platoons, a Panzer Grenadier platoon and an armoured car recce section. Still playing about with balancing the support and opposition, and writing the documentation.

I would love to see some small scenarios available for download. IMHO this would encourage beginners to get more involved in the game system.

I too have great hopes for the PC system.

kam

< Message edited by kam99 -- 4/26/2008 11:11:46 PM >

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Post #: 74

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/27/2008 5:26:09 PM

Agrippa

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Great game, but with some fleas

. I am really happy with the game, and am happy to see a game that puts more into statagy and how it plays instead of how it looks

. On the other hand I don't think that they worked all the bugs out before releasing it. I'm ok with that as long as they sick

with it and fix them. Great game over all

!

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Post #: 75

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/27/2008 5:33:41 PM

junk2drive

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RE: your comment on bugs, looking at the list of fixes in 1.01d, it's a short list, mostly typo fixes, some player requested changes (not fixes or bugs). Pretty good to me, but I'm biased.

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Post #: 76

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/27/2008 6:57:04 PM

thewood1

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I am a little suprised to see someone mention bugs.� I think this is a pretty clean release, relative to some other wargame releases lately.

Not saying its perfect, but playable and wouldn't have noticed most of them without sonmeone mentioning them.

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Post #: 77

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/27/2008 10:49:50 PM

Redleg

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Kam99.

I hope you enjoy the scenario. Your results will be very useful to me to know.

Redleg

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Post #: 78

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/28/2008 4:38:43 AM

Joram

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Well, have played throught he tutorial and some scenario's too.

The tutorial says to put on "easy" somewhere (I forget if the manual said that or what) but I think that pretty much breaks the tutorial. The very last scenario didn't even play on easy mode, just was a straight victory for Germans.

Anyway, my impressions.

I said it before in another thread but the atmosphere seems rather bland. I can't put my finger on it yet though part of it is the flat green matte the terrain resides on. I don't particularly care for some of the sounds. Especially some of the background sounds which are identical to ones in TOAW! Sometimes the looping, especially the infantry troops gets real repetitive real fast. Don't particularly care for the fact that as soon as you look away from a unit, you no longer hear it. I can understand why you might want to do this but the sound actually helps me locate units sometimes. Also, by just abruptly cutting off the sound, it kind of kills the atmosphere. Not a fan of having to "mount" a building though I have to give props to a somewhat ingenious solution.

The models for the most part are excellent! The tire/track of the halftrack is just about the only one that annoys me but the rest seem real sharp. The HT tire is jaggy plus it actually has a higher gradient in a particular position so it looks like it is flashing. But anyway, I really like the models. The platoon based system is very intriguing. I haven't played it enough to get the full affect but I like what you are trying to do. I think the random battle generator is brilliant. That alone is practically worth the price. But I don't like initial placement in the scenario's. It seems unintuitive on what you can and can't do. Artillery can be devestating. Maybe I just have the knack for it but with proper lead and placement, you can really do some fair damage with artillery. It does seem to move and follow the enemy sometimes. Not sure if that's designed or just creepy (pardon the pun!). Sometimes infantry seems real fragile. I've lost whole units to a single tank shell. If it's as a result of a critical hit, then maybe just feels like crits are happening slightly too often. I wouldn't expect an HE shell from a T-34 to wipe out a whole unit with one shot, especially in a building (which happened to me!). But the feel for infantry vs infantry seems right.

So, these are my initial impressions. Not glowing but not too bad either. I'm enjoying myself. Looking forward to this series maturing some more.

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RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/28/2008 5:02:47 PM

Agrippa

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I agree with you that it is a very good game, and the bugs are not crippeling, by any means.� There are, however, some bugs like the one mentioned above about the last battle not playing in the tutorial.��Also, I have had men running for a whole turn in place because they couldn't find their way around one of their own tanks, and units that could not mount a building because there were dead enemy troops inside.� These are minor problems and I am told they are being fixed, so no problem to me.

< Message edited by Agrippa -- 4/28/2008 5:04:19 PM >

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RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/28/2008 7:11:17 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram
The tutorial says to put on "easy" somewhere (I forget if the manual said that or what) but I think that pretty much breaks the tutorial.� The very last scenario didn't even play on easy mode, just was a straight victory for Germans.

Hm, news to me - I'll check it out - I had played through all of Boot Camp on Easy in a previous version.

quote:

The HT tire is jaggy plus it actually has a higher gradient in a particular position so it looks like it is flashing.

I noticed this too, we're planning to go back at some point and fix up a few niggling visual issues like this if time allows.

quote:

Sometimes infantry seems real fragile.��I've lost whole units to a single tank shell.� If it's as a result of a critical hit, then maybe just feels like crits are happening slightly too often.� I wouldn't expect an HE shell from a T-34 to wipe out a whole unit with one shot, especially in a building (which happened to me!).� But the feel for infantry vs infantry seems right.

Regarding infantry, note that Green infantry are more susceptible to "squad wipeouts" than Veteran or Elite (assumption is they tend to bunch up and use cover poorly, etc.). Also, moving infantry, especially in the open is more vulnerable. A shell the size of the T-34's gun has no bonus to wipeout a squad, but some larger ones (i.e. 150mm) do. We may tweak this a bit as we get more feedback, but I'm glad to hear that infantry vs. infantry feels right to you.

Regards,

- Erik

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(in reply to Joram)

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RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/28/2008 7:12:07 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Agrippa
Also, I have had men running for a whole turn in place because they couldn't find their way around one of their own tanks, and units that could not mount a building because there were dead enemy troops inside.� These are minor problems and I am told they are being fixed, so no problem to me.

Have you tried v1.01d yet? As far as I know, all those were fixed there.

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RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/28/2008 7:54:47 PM

Joram

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Thanks for the response Erik. The incident where I lost a whole squad in a building from a T-34 shell was a green squad. I understand your logic, makes sense even if that particular situation was unusual. In the other incidences, it was more me wiping them out but it was larger caliber pieces doing the firing too so that could explain that too.

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Post #: 83

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 4/30/2008 4:11:56 PM

Agrippa

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Thanks Erik!

I had looked for updates a little while ago, but looked in the wrong place. It's loaded now.

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Post #: 84

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 5/5/2008 2:55:50 AM

Erik Rutins

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<bump for new visitors>

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Post #: 85

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 5/5/2008 4:32:09 AM

Jack1986

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

You are right for WAITING SOM as I have just found out something Erik never told us in allllllll this time while chatting with us and showing us AAR's. IE 7.0 REQUIRED...pFFFT on any game that REQUIRES and IE upgrade.

You are saying that one must have Microsoft IE 7.0 to play this game?

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Post #: 86

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 5/5/2008 4:53:37 AM

Mad Russian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jack1986

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

You are right for WAITING SOM as I have just found out something Erik never told us in allllllll this time while chatting with us and showing us AAR's. IE 7.0 REQUIRED...pFFFT on any game that REQUIRES and IE upgrade.

You are saying that one must have Microsoft IE 7.0 to play this game?

Nope. With the patch you have to have Microsoft IE 6.0 to go into the editor. The game plays fine no matter what.

Good Hunting.

MR

(in reply to Jack1986)

Post #: 87

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 5/5/2008 5:34:13 AM

Stridor

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Erik,

Whilst I normally do not advocate editing users posts, there should be some way of clearly indicating the blatant factual errors of RH posts. Jack at least had the good sense to ask if it were the case, I wonder if many potential users might not just leave and not even bother to ask?

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 88

RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 5/5/2008 6:06:23 AM

Erik Rutins

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Ok, I added a small disclaimer to his first post in bold red colors.

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RE: Panzer Command: Kharkov Impressions - 5/5/2008 1:53:27 PM

PDiFolco

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stridor

Erik,

Whilst I normally do not advocate editing users posts, there should be some way of clearly indicating the blatant factual errors of RH posts. Jack at least had the good sense to ask if it were the case, I wonder if many potential users might not just leave and not even bother to ask?

Bah, that's because you're new here