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F4F Wildcat - 4/7/2008 7:03:22 PM   
OG_Gleep

 

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Another question: I was reading the manual and I guess I had missed it when I previously played, but one thing concerned me about this plane. Does it make a poor CAP plane due to its horrid climb rate?

When set to CAP, only a portion of the planes are at the altitude set. The rest are scrambled from the ground and attempt to reach combat altitude, and my understnding is that the calculation relies heavily on its climb rate.

Therefore, does it perform better in LRCAP? As far as I understand LRCAP, the majority of the flight is operating at altitude, and the horrid climb rate would be mitigated.
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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/7/2008 7:23:23 PM   
Ike99


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The Wildcat does one thing well OG. That being, making a good target for Japanese fighter aircraft.

(in reply to OG_Gleep)
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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/7/2008 9:19:44 PM   
tocaff


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In real life once the US pilots had discovered the weaknesses of the Zero and the strengths of the Wildcat they came up with tactics that leveled the field.  

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I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/7/2008 9:30:52 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

In real life once the US pilots had discovered the weaknesses of the Zero and the strengths of the Wildcat they came up with tactics that leveled the field.  



and promptly turned the Zeroes into the flying torches they were designed to be!

(in reply to tocaff)
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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/8/2008 4:47:31 PM   
Miller


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Morale and fatigue levels play a big part with any fighter sqd's performance.....best to have 99 morale and less than 30 fatigue to get the best out of them.

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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/8/2008 7:34:36 PM   
tocaff


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Oh a new avatar!  See what a few wins can do for a guy?

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I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forum/tm.asp?m=2080768

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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/8/2008 9:29:43 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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They were getting close to relegation.

The better the radar the better the cap plane. Rate of climb makes a difference, but early warning makes a bigger one. All of this is just my opinion.

Lrcaping your own taskforce or base always seemed like gaming the system, so I've never used it.

(in reply to tocaff)
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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/8/2008 10:20:43 PM   
Miller


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

Oh a new avatar!  See what a few wins can do for a guy?



(in reply to tocaff)
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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/8/2008 10:41:04 PM   
tocaff


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Good for your team.  

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I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forum/tm.asp?m=2080768

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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/9/2008 12:04:37 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff
In real life once the US pilots had discovered the weaknesses of the Zero and the strengths of the Wildcat they came up with tactics that leveled the field.  


and promptly turned the Zeroes into the flying torches they were designed to be!


LOL! Frankly the Zero lived-off its reputation long after it lost its tactical edge.


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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/9/2008 12:10:38 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OG_Gleep

... When set to CAP, only a portion of the planes are at the altitude set. The rest are scrambled from the ground and attempt to reach combat altitude, and my understnding is that the calculation relies heavily on its climb rate.


How 'bout increasing the ratio of CAP to escort? Of course, an increase in CAP percentage will also increase pilot fatigue, but hopefully you will be able to rotate your squadrons before their morale is shot to hell.


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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/9/2008 12:20:30 AM   
OG_Gleep

 

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As far as I understood reading the manual and dev postings, only a % of the CAP set will be at combat altitude, the rest including those launched due to radar need to climb to where the bombers are...F4F's don't match up THAT bad against zeroes...except climb  rate. LRCAP as far as I understood, would start at combat altitude and either dive of climb to where bombers are at.

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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/9/2008 12:37:58 AM   
tocaff


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CAP is not as effective as you'd like in most situations.  This probably represents planes being out of position to intercept or not finding their intended targets.  Then again when you run into the infamous "UBER CAP" your planes are in for a bad day.

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I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forum/tm.asp?m=2080768

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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/9/2008 1:08:24 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OG_Gleep

As far as I understood reading the manual and dev postings, only a % of the CAP set will be at combat altitude, the rest including those launched due to radar need to climb to where the bombers are...


Won't an increase in CAP to escort ratio put more CAP in the air, or is there a fixed number of planes in the air at any time regardless of the CAP percentage?

In other words, does 100 % CAP mean all fighters are just dedicated to CAP (and not all of them are flying at the same time)?


_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to OG_Gleep)
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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/9/2008 3:20:13 AM   
tocaff


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If you dedicate a larger % of a squadron to CAP then you're bound to have more in the air at any given time, more on alert also.

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I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forum/tm.asp?m=2080768

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Post #: 15
RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/9/2008 9:51:56 PM   
OG_Gleep

 

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I thought LRCAP was something different than just 100% cap. And larger cap doesn't nessisarily mean more planes. I found some tests that showed a higher volume of fighters in the air at 30 cap with radar then 60 without radar. So I am not sure. I do know that for the planes taking off, climb rate heavily influences performance, which is why the original thought why the F4F sucks so bad against zeroes when they didn't really. They didn't get 10:1 ratio but I didn't think it was 3:1 - 4:1 against.

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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/9/2008 11:52:58 PM   
SuluSea


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F4Fs seem to have an acceptable loss rate for me unless you're dealing with the Kido Butai. I set my F4F CAP (17,000') very high most of the time and try to  steer clear of any danger to my carriers until I can operate with 2 CLAAs per flattop.

Using hit and run ops to get the pilots experience up is always a good idea.

I still maintain the Kido Butai are modded stonger in this game than they actually were but hey it makes the game more playable for the other side I guess.



< Message edited by SuluSea -- 4/10/2008 12:03:37 AM >


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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/10/2008 10:37:07 AM   
Desertmole


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If you look at Lundstrom's First Team books you see that the Wildcat did much better than most folks routinely think.  He does not address the Marine Squadrons, but the Navy actually killed more Zeros than lost Wildcats by the end of Midway, and had a 22 to 21 ratio at Guadalcanal.  It has always bugged me that ALL the GG designed games have a "Zero Advantage" built in for the first year of the war.  In one game I lost 54 F4Fs to 0 Zeros in an even fight with fresh pilots.  That's pure BS.  As an experiment, I modded a scenario and gave the USN squadrons an equal experience rating and still lost F4Fs in droves.  The "Zero Advantage" wasn't there in real life and shouldn't be there in the game.

(in reply to SuluSea)
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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/10/2008 1:44:36 PM   
Miller


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The only gripes with regards to the UV air model is that the Wildcat is underpowered whilst the Corsair is way overpowered. As I said earlier I think fatigue is critical. If you want fresh fighters keep the CAP level% no higher than 20 until the day you expect combat.

Compared to the A2A in WITP where everyone dies UV does perform well overall.

(in reply to Desertmole)
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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/11/2008 12:42:58 AM   
OG_Gleep

 

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Hrm....for 6 Gun Points, the F4F-4 gives up points in every other area. Has anyone noticed the 3 performing better then the F4F-4?

I just don't have enough recent game experience to draw any conclusions other then the Advantages the Wildcat had over the Zero isn't modled in game. IMHO this is what would have happened if the Japanese had Self Sealing Fuel tanks.

Has anyone ever had a game where either you or the AI was able to preserve its pilot pool when the Corsairs and Hellcats start taking the field? That may have something to do with the power of the later allied planes.

(in reply to Miller)
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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/11/2008 2:44:28 AM   
Mundy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OG_Gleep

Hrm....for 6 Gun Points, the F4F-4 gives up points in every other area. Has anyone noticed the 3 performing better then the F4F-4?



That's probably correct.

The -4 introduced the folding wing to the Wildcat series with the added weight of the mechanism. Even with two extra guns, the total ammunition count was the same, so there were less rounds per gun than before.

(in reply to OG_Gleep)
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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/11/2008 6:11:02 PM   
pbear

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy


Even with two extra guns, the total ammunition count was the same, so there were less rounds per gun than before.


Yes but there was an increase of 50% more rounds on target in the same amount of time.

< Message edited by pbear -- 4/11/2008 6:12:30 PM >

(in reply to Mundy)
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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/11/2008 7:20:34 PM   
tocaff


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Common target for an Wilcat facing a Zero, wingroots.  The Zero flamed or fell apart under the onslaught of .50 cal hitting it.  Tactics and training will make up for a lot so if you know your opponents strengths and weaknesses along with your own kill ratios get drastically altered.  This assumes that the planes in question don't totally outclass the other.

The difference between the -3 and -4 Wildcats weren't big enough performance wise to keep using the 3s.  The folding wing allowed more planes in the same amount of space and 2 more guns was a big difference.

The Zero's armament stunk as the cannons were  poor weapons that had a low rate of fire and lacked accuracy and the mgs were to light hitting against armoured targets.

Once the US pilots learned their lessons the Zero was in deep stuff.


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I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forum/tm.asp?m=2080768

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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/11/2008 7:53:26 PM   
Ike99


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quote:

Once the US pilots learned their lessons the Zero was in deep stuff.


What are you trying to say, Wildcats were superior fighters to Zeros?

Give

Me

A

Break


But if it makes you feel any better I agree with Miller that the Wildcat is too weak in the game. It really seems to have no chance against the Zero. I would think a great Wildcat Squadron going against an Average Zero Squadron would be about an even fight.

(in reply to tocaff)
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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/11/2008 8:03:17 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

Once the US pilots learned their lessons the Zero was in deep stuff.


What are you trying to say, Wildcats were superior fighters to Zeros?

Give

Me

A

Break


But if it makes you feel any better I agree with Miller that the Wildcat is too weak in the game. It really seems to have no chance against the Zero. I would think a great Wildcat Squadron going against an Average Zero Squadron would be about an even fight.



That would, of course, explain why the almost totally green marine Wildcat squadrons deployed to Guadalcanal immediately started shooting down Zeroes in numbers far, far exceeding their own losses! The zero had an edge over the P-39 and P-40...it had absolutely no edge over the F4F. The Zero's weaknesses far, far outweighed it's strengths when pitted against Wildcats.

(in reply to Ike99)
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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/11/2008 8:23:56 PM   
Ike99


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quote:

The Zero's weaknesses far, far outweighed it's strengths when pitted against Wildcats.


Go fly some online ¨IL2 Pacific Fighters¨ Hans,
Wildcat vs Zero, with the Zeros superior speed, climb rate, firepower and maneuverability and then come back and tell me all about how a Wildcat is a superior dogfighter to a Zero.

(in reply to HansBolter)
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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/11/2008 8:26:30 PM   
tocaff


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Please tell me we're not headed into another of the fabled world is wrong & historical facts don't count arguments where Ike, of course is the only one right. 

For 6 months the Zero dominated the skies against obsolete aircraft, Buffaloes for 1, and tactics.  Hell, once the P-40s were upgunned to 6 .50 cal even they did better against the Zeros.  Yes it was a remarkable plane when it was intoduced, but it's fragile construction and lack of self sealing fuel tanks spelled it's doom.  Relying on superbly trained pilots without a pilot training program producing decently trained pilots and the failure to introduce better planes sooner spelled doom for the Japanese.

If somebody could find the breakdowns for kill vs loss ratios for the first 12 to 14 months of the Pacific War I feel that it will show what we already suspect. 


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I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forum/tm.asp?m=2080768

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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/11/2008 8:40:43 PM   
Charbroiled


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quote:


Go fly some online ¨IL2 Pacific Fighters¨ Hans,
Wildcat vs Zero, with the Zeros superior speed, climb rate, firepower and maneuverability and then come back and tell me all about how a Wildcat is a superior dogfighter to a Zero.


You're kidding, right? Use a computer game to determine aircraft capabilities?

(in reply to Ike99)
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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/11/2008 8:59:25 PM   
Ike99


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quote:

You're kidding, right? Use a computer game to determine aircraft capabilities?


Not a game, a flight simulator with accurate flight models.


quote:


For 6 months the Zero dominated the skies against obsolete aircraft, Buffaloes for 1, and tactics. Hell, once the P-40s were upgunned to 6 .50 cal even they did better against the Zeros. Yes it was a remarkable plane when it was intoduced, but it's fragile construction and lack of self sealing fuel tanks spelled it's doom. Relying on superbly trained pilots without a pilot training program producing decently trained pilots and the failure to introduce better planes sooner spelled doom for the Japanese.

If somebody could find the breakdowns for kill vs loss ratios for the first 12 to 14 months of the Pacific War I feel that it will show what we already suspect.


It´s not so much the planes Todd as the tactics. The Zero can outrun, out climb, and out turn a Wildcat.

A Wildcat dogfighting in a traditional manner against a Zero is going to lose.

The biggest ¨event¨ in the air battles in the first 14 months was the introduction of the ¨Thatch Weave¨

First used at Midway I understand with success but when it became widespread among Allied fighter groups in the South Pacific I don´t know.

As far as the kill rato. The best allied flyers using the ¨Weave¨ Zero vs Wildcat was a little less than...

1 to 1

It had a huge impact.

Saburo Sakai-"For the first time Lt. Commander Tadashi Nakajima encountered what was to become a famous double-team maneuver on the part of the enemy. Two Wildcats jumped on the commander’s plane. He had no trouble in getting on the tail of an enemy fighter, but never had a chance to fire before the Grumman’s team-mate roared at him from the side. Nakajima was raging when he got back to Rabaul; he had been forced to dive and run for safety."

(in reply to Charbroiled)
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RE: F4F Wildcat - 4/11/2008 9:09:27 PM   
HansBolter


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Perhaps you need to make an effort to get over your fixation and obsession with DOGFIGHTING.

I NEVER said the Wildcat was superior to the Zero in a DOGFIGHT.

In fact, what you pointedly ignored, was my statement that as soon as the Allied pilots learned to AVOID DOGFIGHTING the Zero and utilize the Strenghts of their planes against the Zero's WEAKNESSES they successfully TURNED the tables and decided the the campaign before the arrival of the second generation fighters.

The mysique of the superiority of teh Zero was forged against the Buffalo, the P-39 and the early P-40. In the event, it proved itself to have been INFERIOR to the Wildcat.


Try peddling your revisionist history to those gullible enough to buy it!

(in reply to Ike99)
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