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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

 
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 4/12/2008 4:43:34 AM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3423
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Hi, my name is Brad and I am a turtle. I cannot bring myself to throw away my units in useless attemtps to stop an overwhelming Japanese juggernaut in WITP, nor can I bring myself to send them in on suicide attacks just to liven up the game for my opponent. Please help me overcome this problem...



Why not? Could be fun... for a very short time!

Chez



_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
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NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 61
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 4/12/2008 7:56:42 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8251
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
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Yeah, yeah, yeah... you're just wishing that I was that foolish...

besides, I just gave you a chance at a carrier encounter off Exmouth. It seems that your ships ran away...

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 62
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 4/12/2008 10:11:57 AM   
Nemo121


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Joined: 2/6/2004
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If the Allied player turtles then he simply allows the Japanese player to build up pools of experienced pilots which will keep him much more competitive than normal in 1943 ( asuming competence.... which, of course, one should really never assume).

As to resistance being "futile" or somesuch... Well, in my game vs jagdfluger approximately 2,500 IJN fighters and double that number of bombers have been downed in the first 8 months of war. And I've been fielding mostly Hurricanes, P-40Es, P-43s etc using the RHS/CHS level of Allied fighter replacements. So, fighting forward can cause absolute havoc to the Japanese and anyone who says that they can't "hurt" the Japanese simply isn't trying hard enough. You can hurt the Japanese but you certainly won't learn how to do so if you continually run from conflict.

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 63
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 4/12/2008 10:20:51 AM   
goodboyladdie


Posts: 3464
Joined: 11/18/2005
From: Ipswich, Suffolk
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

If the Allied player turtles then he simply allows the Japanese player to build up pools of experienced pilots which will keep him much more competitive than normal in 1943 ( asuming competence.... which, of course, one should really never assume).

As to resistance being "futile" or somesuch... Well, in my game vs jagdfluger approximately 2,500 IJN fighters and double that number of bombers have been downed in the first 8 months of war. And I've been fielding mostly Hurricanes, P-40Es, P-43s etc using the RHS/CHS level of Allied fighter replacements. So, fighting forward can cause absolute havoc to the Japanese and anyone who says that they can't "hurt" the Japanese simply isn't trying hard enough. You can hurt the Japanese but you certainly won't learn how to do so if you continually run from conflict.


But Brad is right for the more normal player, O Slayer of Trolls. I fight what battles I can forward in order to throw off Jap time tables, with the aim to be able to start my fight back as soon as possible. In order for this strategy to work I need to retain the bulk of my intitial Naval forces intact, so I am not going to waste them just because the Jap player is really Scrappy Doo in disguise.


_____________________________



Art by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 64
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 4/13/2008 7:01:31 AM   
bradfordkay

 

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From: Olympia, WA
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Regarding the concern about "playing turtle" just allowing the Japanese player to build up, you are quite right. However, it seems to me that a too aggressive allied player will just lose a lot of aircraft and pilots to little avail. We shall see as my only PBEM is entering the second quarter of '43.


I personally think that I'm giving him too much time to build up, but I hate wasting ships and aircraft in futile attacks: Chez has set up a beautiful defensive perimeter where all my attacks are long range, able to utilize only P38s as escorts (unless I expose the carriers). Thus I am trying to nibble away at his perimeter where I can - when he brings in too many defensive fighters I switch to a new target...

< Message edited by bradfordkay -- 4/13/2008 8:48:11 AM >


_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to goodboyladdie)
Post #: 65
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 4/13/2008 7:20:16 PM   
OldGuard1970

 

Posts: 564
Joined: 7/19/2006
From: Hiawassee, GA
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"If you find yourself in a fair fight, you haven't planned well enough."

By extension, your planning was really lousy if you find yourself fighting at a disadvantage.

Big fights in the early game almost certainly will favor the Japanese.  A wise Allied player avoids the big fights and concentrates on seeking small fights that are "fair fights" or fights where the Allies own the advantage.

In the early game, is it even wiser for the Allied player to run, hide and decline any combat that is not forced on him?  I suspect not.  I do not want my Japanese opponent to have full liberty to do whatever he wants.  That will make the Allied job all the harder later in the war.  Instead, I want to poke, scratch, irritate and worry the Japanese player.  I want him to have to cover his actions with enough force to guard against an impudent early strike by the Allies.  I want him to have to try to track the Allied CVs and wonder what they might be preparing to do. 

Besides...  It is so much fun to arrange a small sting, and who has the patience to wait a year anyway? 


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"Rangers Lead the Way!"

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Post #: 66
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 4/13/2008 9:07:00 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22525
Joined: 9/3/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OldGuard1970

"If you find yourself in a fair fight, you haven't planned well enough."

By extension, your planning was really lousy if you find yourself fighting at a disadvantage.

Big fights in the early game almost certainly will favor the Japanese. A wise Allied player avoids the big fights and concentrates on seeking small fights that are "fair fights" or fights where the Allies own the advantage.

In the early game, is it even wiser for the Allied player to run, hide and decline any combat that is not forced on him? I suspect not. I do not want my Japanese opponent to have full liberty to do whatever he wants. That will make the Allied job all the harder later in the war. Instead, I want to poke, scratch, irritate and worry the Japanese player. I want him to have to cover his actions with enough force to guard against an impudent early strike by the Allies. I want him to have to try to track the Allied CVs and wonder what they might be preparing to do.

Besides... It is so much fun to arrange a small sting, and who has the patience to wait a year anyway?


Would you SERIOUSLY risk your carriers for a "small sting"?

It is too easy to lose ships in the game due to game mechanics and glitches... i've lost several ships in my current game due to reset orders (!!?) or them just doing bizarre stuff (i.e. fully fueled destroyers ordered to move at top speed/do not retire to a base move only 1 hex in an entire 2 pulse day... even crippled ships generally move faster than that!)

BTW, order resets are (for me) relatively common, often unpredictable and are not limited to ships but also LCUs and aircraft.

While it is advisable to keep the IJ player off balance, it is also advisable not to seriously risk your main striking force unless you stand to get some definite advantages... putting in a "small sting" if you are (say) using your carriers while not knowing where the KB is located can be detrimental to the outcome of your game!

(in reply to OldGuard1970)
Post #: 67
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 4/14/2008 9:17:28 AM   
gladiatt


Posts: 2528
Joined: 4/10/2008
Status: offline


[/quote]
Most players supply this element for themselves... they get tired of waiting around, and strike before the iron is hot.

The game offers enough artificialities into history that it is NOT advisable for an Allied player to try to play the game modeled after the way the Allies actually did... and it certainly does not pay to try to play the game the way a Japanese player wants it to be played.
[/quote]


I think that's it !
Not play (or even fight in real life) the way your opponent want !
Hurt him where he can't stand; fly where he is too big; counter-attack on secondary front; but never do what your opponent want !!

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 68
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 4/14/2008 6:28:13 PM   
marky


Posts: 5747
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin, its really cold
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

Agreed What is wrong with conserving your forces until a favourable time to strike back? I'm not going to hide away forever, but neither am I going to sail right up to the KB in early 1942...


indeeed, im facing that situation right now in my game against Bruno

if i had been nimitz and a civilian told me to attack the KB with 2 or 3 carriers i wouldve had a few choice words for that civilian

Enforcer, surely you dont expect us AFBs to wander right up to KBs door, knock and say "What say you to a joust?"



if ya want my carriers, or an AFBs, ya gotta earn em

(in reply to Dixie)
Post #: 69
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 4/14/2008 8:05:23 PM   
OldGuard1970

 

Posts: 564
Joined: 7/19/2006
From: Hiawassee, GA
Status: offline
rtrapasso: "Would you SERIOUSLY risk your carriers for a "small sting"? "

No, I wouldn't. You are quite correct. In fact, I would not want to risk them for much of anything in the early game.

I keep my carriers deployed a couple of days steaming away from the "front". That forces the Japanese player to cover his moves. (If the American carriers are hunkered down on the West Coast, then the Japanese player can scamper about with light forces.) I would only impudently "pounce" on an exposed Japanese force with my CVs if the KB is in another region.

The "small stings" are usually quite small... fighter ambushes, light SC TFs, reinforcement of a threatened base with a small LCU.

I am very aware that an Allied player cannot "win" the game in the early going, but he sure could "lose" it!

Order Resets: I do not see them, but my Japanese opponent in Stock Scen 15 (1 day turns) complains that he sees lots of them with TFs. He may have seen one LCU movement reset. We use virtually the same computer and operating system. (My computer has more RAM. All else is the same.) I wonder what is happening????



_____________________________

"Rangers Lead the Way!"

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 70
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 4/15/2008 12:03:59 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22525
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldGuard1970

rtrapasso: "Would you SERIOUSLY risk your carriers for a "small sting"? "

No, I wouldn't. You are quite correct. In fact, I would not want to risk them for much of anything in the early game.

I keep my carriers deployed a couple of days steaming away from the "front". That forces the Japanese player to cover his moves. (If the American carriers are hunkered down on the West Coast, then the Japanese player can scamper about with light forces.) I would only impudently "pounce" on an exposed Japanese force with my CVs if the KB is in another region.

The "small stings" are usually quite small... fighter ambushes, light SC TFs, reinforcement of a threatened base with a small LCU.

I am very aware that an Allied player cannot "win" the game in the early going, but he sure could "lose" it!

Order Resets: I do not see them, but my Japanese opponent in Stock Scen 15 (1 day turns) complains that he sees lots of them with TFs. He may have seen one LCU movement reset. We use virtually the same computer and operating system. (My computer has more RAM. All else is the same.) I wonder what is happening????



i would truly like to find out.

(in reply to OldGuard1970)
Post #: 71
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