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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!!

 
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/24/2008 11:20:05 PM   
Charbroiled


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aphrochine


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

A favorite tactic of one of my opponents is to mass his invasion fleet, 90% of his CVs, and his surface fleet in one hex as it moves to the target hex (this is April 42). Any land base planes I send out gets crushed against his cap and AA to the point where I usually don't have enough planes to launch more then one or two strikes. Any CV TF I send gets picked apart by the numerous Kates and Val. Any CV strike I launch has the same result as my land base strikes. If he can keep the range between his and my CV TF to 4 or 5, I'm toast. Plus, he puts just about every Nell and Betty he has on the closest size 3 or 4 AF (maybe even a size 2 sometimes). Not much my CV TF can do against a Betty strike of 300 planes.



If you where flying strikes against the KB to purposes of engaging the CAP, wouldnt the presence of such a large CAP pull every available fighter for escort duty?? I thought I read somewhere that anticipated CAP effected how strong the pull was for escorts. P-40's have a range of 5, wouldnt it be possible to mass up 200+ P-40s against that zero cap?? If so, would a 1-1 fighter battle in mid-42 with 60+ exp P-40s be sapping enough on the Zero's pilot pool to force the KB to consider pulling back?


Early in the war, it is hard for the allies to mass 200+ P-40 and I'm not sure that there is that many available. Plus, with the high experience of the japanese CV fighter...linked with the zero bonus, even if you are able to mass that many fighters, you are only going to do it once. With the replacement rate of 1-2 P-40B a day and 2-3 P-40E a day, replenishing allied fighter units is a slow process.

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Post #: 31
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/24/2008 11:23:08 PM   
aphrochine


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From: Phoenix, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

In the game, both sides may play a-historically, but it's within the realm of reason for the Japs to mass and the Allies to "Sir Robin." 



Good points. So I guess, is this what the game devolves too, using established cookie cutter techniques such as 'mass' and 'sir robin'??

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Post #: 32
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/24/2008 11:27:37 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 9003
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: online 		No way, this game is so huge that every one is different.

The Japs may divide CVs to accomplish goals.

The Allies quite often see a chance to strike with minimal risk, but sometimes get bit in the rear end.

I bet in most games the Allied player has his CVs where he thinks he can use them if an urgent need or an opportunity arises.

And the Japs may have similar occasions to divide and conquer.

This game is too big for any kind of cookie-cutter feeling to develop.  Or, I should say, it would take many games until you felt like you had seen/done/experienced it all and got bored.

(in reply to aphrochine)
Post #: 33
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/24/2008 11:30:31 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm sure Allied players would be happy to use their CVs as was done in the war (committing two or three at a time on raids against the Marshalls, or to try to blunt a Japanese offensive aka Battle of the Coral Sea) if the Japanese player was also using his CVs historically (committing just a handful in Coral Sea or Battle of Eastern Solomons or Midway). But in the game, unlike in real life, the Jap player usually masses his CVs with devastating results. The Allied player would be stupid to commit his CVs against the massed KB. So both players are playing a-historically. So what?

If the Japanese player masses his CVs the Allied player should do the same, combining UK and US CVs and prepare them to counter the Japanese advance where ever it occurs. Put Halsey and Spraunce onboard and attack wherever the air space is at least neutral. As the Allies all you need to do is take out 3 or more IJN CVs. LBA and superior Allied production will take care of the rest.

The MOST dangerous thing in this game for an Allied player is an unchecked KB.


Early in the war, you would have to have a good idea where the KB is and what is it's next target in order to do this. Plus, if the Japanese player kept his CVs in range of his Betty's, chances are, the allied CVs will become fish shelters.

A favorite tactic of one of my opponents is to mass his invasion fleet, 90% of his CVs, and his surface fleet in one hex as it moves to the target hex (this is April 42). Any land base planes I send out gets crushed against his cap and AA to the point where I usually don't have enough planes to launch more then one or two strikes. Any CV TF I send gets picked apart by the numerous Kates and Val. Any CV strike I launch has the same result as my land base strikes. If he can keep the range between his and my CV TF to 4 or 5, I'm toast. Plus, he puts just about every Nell and Betty he has on the closest size 3 or 4 AF (maybe even a size 2 sometimes). Not much my CV TF can do against a Betty strike of 300 planes.


The counter to this tactic is to equally mass forces. 300 B-17s, massed BBs and CVs should be an effective counter.

One option is to send in 3-4 BB TFs to attack the Bettys (bombardment attack). The Bettys can't very effectively attack the BBs and CVs all at once. Either the bombardment TFs get through and wipe out the airfield or the Bettys are too busy attacking the BBs to attack the CVs.

Another option is to use fast cruisers to attack the KB. Since you know the KB will be with the transports. A force of 10 CA/CL should do some damage to the KB and keep it tied up allowing the Allied KB to attack what's left.

If the Bettys are within B-17 range then they are no problem...btw some realistic stacking limits really helps with this too.

You just have to find the chink in the armor and be ready and willing to exploit it. The Allies can always get bad die rolls, but so can Japan.

Edit: You can use air balance to track the KB, or SigInt. You also can always station the Allied KB in a central location like the South Pacific.

< Message edited by niceguy2005 -- 3/24/2008 11:32:16 PM >

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Post #: 34
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/24/2008 11:32:54 PM   
Charbroiled


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aphrochine


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

In the game, both sides may play a-historically, but it's within the realm of reason for the Japs to mass and the Allies to "Sir Robin." 



Good points. So I guess, is this what the game devolves too, using established cookie cutter techniques such as 'mass' and 'sir robin'??


It depends a lot on the Japanese player. If he stays semi-historic and keeps a front in all areas of the pacific, then the KB can't be all places at once. This allows the allied player to come out of his shell and fight to an extent, but he has to be aware of the Betty's. And, even if he masses, and the allied player can think ahead, the Japanese player usually makes himself weak somewhere else that the allied player might be able to take advantage of.

House rules also can have a major impact. Any future games of mine will have the following:

No LBs on Level 3 or lower AFs
Only 50 planes per AF Level at any base.

(in reply to aphrochine)
Post #: 35
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/24/2008 11:34:48 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aphrochine


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

In the game, both sides may play a-historically, but it's within the realm of reason for the Japs to mass and the Allies to "Sir Robin."



Good points. So I guess, is this what the game devolves too, using established cookie cutter techniques such as 'mass' and 'sir robin'??

No, as the above post points out every tactic has a counter tactic. It's the success of all the individual tactical decisions that decides the game.

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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/24/2008 11:37:27 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled


quote:

ORIGINAL: aphrochine


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

A favorite tactic of one of my opponents is to mass his invasion fleet, 90% of his CVs, and his surface fleet in one hex as it moves to the target hex (this is April 42). Any land base planes I send out gets crushed against his cap and AA to the point where I usually don't have enough planes to launch more then one or two strikes. Any CV TF I send gets picked apart by the numerous Kates and Val. Any CV strike I launch has the same result as my land base strikes. If he can keep the range between his and my CV TF to 4 or 5, I'm toast. Plus, he puts just about every Nell and Betty he has on the closest size 3 or 4 AF (maybe even a size 2 sometimes). Not much my CV TF can do against a Betty strike of 300 planes.



If you where flying strikes against the KB to purposes of engaging the CAP, wouldnt the presence of such a large CAP pull every available fighter for escort duty?? I thought I read somewhere that anticipated CAP effected how strong the pull was for escorts. P-40's have a range of 5, wouldnt it be possible to mass up 200+ P-40s against that zero cap?? If so, would a 1-1 fighter battle in mid-42 with 60+ exp P-40s be sapping enough on the Zero's pilot pool to force the KB to consider pulling back?


Early in the war, it is hard for the allies to mass 200+ P-40 and I'm not sure that there is that many available. Plus, with the high experience of the japanese CV fighter...linked with the zero bonus, even if you are able to mass that many fighters, you are only going to do it once. With the replacement rate of 1-2 P-40B a day and 2-3 P-40E a day, replenishing allied fighter units is a slow process.


This is why around strategic bases I establish an AF capable of significant B-17 operation. 1B-17 = 1 zero + 1 Betty. It keeps the 300 Betty torpedo strike silliness to a minimum.

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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/24/2008 11:46:18 PM   
Charbroiled


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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
The counter to this tactic is to equally mass forces. 300 B-17s, massed BBs and CVs should be an effective counter.

One option is to send in 3-4 BB TFs to attack the Bettys (bombardment attack). The Bettys can't very effectively attack the BBs and CVs all at once. Either the bombardment TFs get through and wipe out the airfield or the Bettys are too busy attacking the BBs to attack the CVs.

Another option is to use fast cruisers to attack the KB. Since you know the KB will be with the transports. A force of 10 CA/CL should do some damage to the KB and keep it tied up allowing the Allied KB to attack what's left.

If the Bettys are within B-17 range then they are no problem...btw some realistic stacking limits really helps with this too.

You just have to find the chink in the armor and be ready and willing to exploit it. The Allies can always get bad die rolls, but so can Japan.

Edit: You can use air balance to track the KB, or SigInt. You also can always station the Allied KB in a central location like the South Pacific.


Been there, done that.

Problem was that I didn't have 300 B-17's available when I tried it. The outcome for me is that now I have 1 BB left (not counting RN) and 2 CVs left, and one of them has 30 sys damage (again it's 4/42). I've lost about half of my CAs and DDs. I have done some damage to him, enough that my small force is a thorn in his side. I also niavely agree to a 20,000 min limit for 4e LBs. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about my game. I fact, it has been real fun...just not what I expected. In hindsight, I would have had some house rules (see post above).

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Post #: 38
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/25/2008 12:29:45 AM   
aphrochine


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From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		So how would you use B-17's to defeat Bettys?  Airfield strikes??  Strafing?!?!?  Anytime I can pull zero's into intercepting my B-17's I've seen good results, but the bettys...


Why would limiting B-17's to a 20k floor be a bad thing??  Thought the higher the better for 4e's.

I do like the 50 plan limit per AF level, seems reasonable.  Although, isnt there in-game penalties to a/c stacking??

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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/25/2008 12:59:01 AM   
Charbroiled


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aphrochine

So how would you use B-17's to defeat Bettys?  Airfield strikes??  Strafing?!?!?  Anytime I can pull zero's into intercepting my B-17's I've seen good results, but the bettys...


Why would limiting B-17's to a 20k floor be a bad thing??  Thought the higher the better for 4e's.

I do like the 50 plan limit per AF level, seems reasonable.  Although, isnt there in-game penalties to a/c stacking??


There are claims that Allied 4e are get too many hits compared to RL when under 20,000.

There are in-game penalties, but IMHO, they are not strict enough.

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Post #: 40
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/25/2008 1:06:27 AM   
aphrochine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

There are claims that Allied 4e are get too many hits compared to RL when under 20,000.






Picklebarrel?


edit: quote brackets own me....

< Message edited by aphrochine -- 3/25/2008 1:09:24 AM >

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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/25/2008 5:08:32 PM   
vettim89


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From: Toledo, Ohio
Status: offline 		There are many strategies for this game on both sides. I have no problems with the Japanese pushing the envelope as far as they want as long as they don't use gamey tactics like overstacking, invading with small fragments, and other exploits. I don't mind ahistorical strategies becasue isn't that what its about? If the only way to play WiTP would be to simply replay the historical course of the war, what would be the point? Could the Japanese have won the war in '42? Why not let the Japanese player find out? If an Allied player looks at the PI and thinks they are not worth retaking - why not? (IN RL that was not a politcal option)

In my PBEM GC game, my opponents Vals and Kate have been chewed up. So he's loaded his mini KB up with almost all Zeros and uses it as a giant moving AB running sweep missions against Nidini, PM, and Efate. A bit gamey but certainly using his remaining resources as effectively as possible. (BTW- the GC scenario sucks for the ALlies. It is nearly impossible to hold the Island and the Japanese gets all those carriers and BB's with no fuel limitation. My opponent merely blockaded Lunga with 12 BB's and 6 CV's until the Marines starved to death)

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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/25/2008 6:53:21 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aphrochine

So how would you use B-17's to defeat Bettys? Airfield strikes?? Strafing?!?!? Anytime I can pull zero's into intercepting my B-17's I've seen good results, but the bettys...


Why would limiting B-17's to a 20k floor be a bad thing?? Thought the higher the better for 4e's.

I do like the 50 plan limit per AF level, seems reasonable. Although, isnt there in-game penalties to a/c stacking??

You bomb the airfield. A big part of my allied doctrine is neutralize any level 4 AF in B-17 range. Bettys that can't use torps aren't nearly as big a threat. Even if you can't completely close the AF, a big strike will damage Betty on the AF - note that this must be done BEFORE the phase that Bettys would launch because Bettys in the air obviously aren't subject to being attacked on the ground.

All bombers are more accurate at lower altitudes. The altitude limitations normally only apply to naval attacks. Some people feel (and I'm one of them) that B-17s are too accurate when set on Naval attack at low altitudes. However, a more typical house rule would be to limit the Alt to above 10k.

Edit: the 4E accuracy issue has been so over publicized at this point that it seems to me people think any 4E hit on a ship in inaccurate. I would disagree with this. When the AF finally started bombing ships from lower altitudes, or even skip bombing with 4Es, they had considerably greater success.

< Message edited by niceguy2005 -- 3/25/2008 6:57:50 PM >

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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/25/2008 6:56:49 PM   
vettim89


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Status: offline 		In the Allies defense: historically there was a huge pause in carrier operations/battles. Battle of Santa Cruz Islands was 26 Oct 42; the next fleet engagement with carriers was the Battle of the Phillipine Sea 19 June 44. The IJN did not lose a carrier from 25 Aug 42 (Ryujo) until 19 June 44 (Shokaku and Taiho - both of which were sunk by submarines BTW) So to say the "Turtle Defense" is ahistorical is really not true. Other factors played into this pause (namely lack of trained airgroups for the Japanese) but there could have been CV vs CV battle off the GIlberts in late 43 or the Marshalls in early 42. But during that pause the Allies were engaging the Japanese in a battle of attrition in the Solomons, New Guinea, and Burma.

To me the only hope for the Allied player to not be forced into aposition where he has to "go turtle" is to effective engage the Japanese palyer in an attrition battle on two widely separated fronts. The goal being to force the IJN player to divde KB into separate divisions to make a more favorable odds ratio for the Allies - i.e. local CV superiority vs theatre.

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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/28/2008 4:55:03 PM   
jeffs


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Status: offline 		Charboiled hit the nail on the head.

If you fight a Japanese opponent who is playing semi-historical, then the allies can fight in selected places. But if you have a guy who invades  every base based on knowing exactly what the allied OB is and where everything is located, there is nothing one can do other than to run and hide. Have you read any AARs of Nemo? One can refuse to play in such a game..But the reality is in that kind of game the allies can only hold on in limited areas.

Many J fanboys will argue over "balance"...Which is fine as far as playing a game..But as for historical reality...It is clearly not.

One thing that is easy to forget (and is a huge advantage for Japan).
1. Historically Japan did not realize how much intelligence the US had.
2. The US does not get as much intelligence in this game as they get historically. (for example, the US knew all about Midway but in this game the first hint would be the LCU aiming for Midway..US would not have all the details of the fleet.
3. A typical Japanese tactic in this game, predicated on the knowledge the US is reading the mail, is to prep an LCU for a target Japan has no idea of attacking, such that the allies are confused over IJN intentions. Very gamey/slimey, but well within the rules.

_____________________________

To quote from Evans/Peattie`s {Kaigun}
"Mistakes in operations and tactics can be corrected, but
political and strategic mistakes live forever". The authors were refering to Japan but the same could be said of the US misadventure in Iraq

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Post #: 45
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/28/2008 7:05:57 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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Status: offline 		Hi, my name is Brad and I am a turtle. I cannot bring myself to throw away my units in useless attemtps to stop an overwhelming Japanese juggernaut in WITP, nor can I bring myself to send them in on suicide attacks just to liven up the game for my opponent. Please help me overcome this problem...

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fair winds,
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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/28/2008 7:38:15 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Hi, my name is Brad and I am a turtle. I cannot bring myself to throw away my units in useless attemtps to stop an overwhelming Japanese juggernaut in WITP, nor can I bring myself to send them in on suicide attacks just to liven up the game for my opponent. Please help me overcome this problem...




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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/28/2008 7:43:23 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffs

Charboiled hit the nail on the head.

If you fight a Japanese opponent who is playing semi-historical, then the allies can fight in selected places. But if you have a guy who invades every base based on knowing exactly what the allied OB is and where everything is located, there is nothing one can do other than to run and hide. Have you read any AARs of Nemo? One can refuse to play in such a game..But the reality is in that kind of game the allies can only hold on in limited areas.

Many J fanboys will argue over "balance"...Which is fine as far as playing a game..But as for historical reality...It is clearly not.

One thing that is easy to forget (and is a huge advantage for Japan).
1. Historically Japan did not realize how much intelligence the US had.
2. The US does not get as much intelligence in this game as they get historically. (for example, the US knew all about Midway but in this game the first hint would be the LCU aiming for Midway..US would not have all the details of the fleet.
3. A typical Japanese tactic in this game, predicated on the knowledge the US is reading the mail, is to prep an LCU for a target Japan has no idea of attacking, such that the allies are confused over IJN intentions. Very gamey/slimey, but well within the rules.

The defense against this is to "know thy enemy". If you are playing against an experienced Jap player that knows the OOB, then you'd better know his just as well. Simple fact is that the Japs don't have enough force to be everywhere at once and the only way for Japan to sweep across the map is for it to over extend itself. At which point the best defense is a good offense.

IMO the war really begins in earnest in March. That's when the first allied reinforcements can hit the front lines. Before that it's just Japan beating up on isolated units and restricted commands.

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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/28/2008 11:45:57 PM   
Charbroiled


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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffs

Charboiled hit the nail on the head.

If you fight a Japanese opponent who is playing semi-historical, then the allies can fight in selected places. But if you have a guy who invades every base based on knowing exactly what the allied OB is and where everything is located, there is nothing one can do other than to run and hide. Have you read any AARs of Nemo? One can refuse to play in such a game..But the reality is in that kind of game the allies can only hold on in limited areas.

Many J fanboys will argue over "balance"...Which is fine as far as playing a game..But as for historical reality...It is clearly not.

One thing that is easy to forget (and is a huge advantage for Japan).
1. Historically Japan did not realize how much intelligence the US had.
2. The US does not get as much intelligence in this game as they get historically. (for example, the US knew all about Midway but in this game the first hint would be the LCU aiming for Midway..US would not have all the details of the fleet.
3. A typical Japanese tactic in this game, predicated on the knowledge the US is reading the mail, is to prep an LCU for a target Japan has no idea of attacking, such that the allies are confused over IJN intentions. Very gamey/slimey, but well within the rules.

The defense against this is to "know thy enemy". If you are playing against an experienced Jap player that knows the OOB, then you'd better know his just as well. Simple fact is that the Japs don't have enough force to be everywhere at once and the only way for Japan to sweep across the map is for it to over extend itself. At which point the best defense is a good offense.

IMO the war really begins in earnest in March. That's when the first allied reinforcements can hit the front lines. Before that it's just Japan beating up on isolated units and restricted commands.


Don't 100% agree with this Niceguy, but don't completely disagree.

I almost called the game because of my opponents opening moves, but I'm glad I didn't because I am learning a lot. He use the Japan 1st turn movement to position TFs to take Midway, then Lahaini. He landed a lot of troops at PH and the only thing that stopped him was that I move the 1st Marines to PH as soon as I could. PH is the only base left to me at Hawaii...and he has enough troops in PH that I can not use it as a base. During his PH invasion, KB was trolling between PH and the mainland. I was able to sneak what little forces I had to reinforce Johnson and Palmayra.

He made some serious move through Burma, enough that I had to pull everything I had to keep him from running all the way to Diamond Harbor. Then he took everything from his Malaya Campaign and hit Sri Lanka and the southern tip of India. I have absolutly nothing left in India to really stop him.

He bypassed PI and hit Mendenado and Timor. Took Sumatra, Borneo, and Java at his leisure.

All of this by 4/42.

Yes, he is over extended. He took Rabaul, but I think it is pretty much unprotected and I starting to move through the Solomns.

My point is that he was able to hit key positions that isolated large chucks of land and is able to hold me a bay with minimal forces. Plus that fact that he did it all so early that the Allies just did not have anything to put up a fight with to even slow him down. And since I did not use the "Sir Robin" tactic, my navy was overwhelmed when I did try to slow him down and I have taken some heavy losses.

As I said before, I not complaining...in fact, my hat is off to him. It was a very well devised plan. Unrealistic, but well devised.


< Message edited by Charbroiled -- 3/28/2008 11:47:48 PM >

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Post #: 49
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/29/2008 6:03:42 AM   
Mynok


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He can do it because he has too much transport. See my sig if you think I'm biased.


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RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/29/2008 7:21:45 AM   
okami


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Status: offline 		I would like to know how a turtle got a hold of a computer and a copy of Witp? Are they such good players that we are scared to play them or do they not believe in houserules and game the engine?

< Message edited by okami -- 3/29/2008 7:22:21 AM >

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"Square peg, round hole? No problem. Malet please.

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 51
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 3/29/2008 7:33:12 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Enforcer

I read a post earlier about GAMEY tactics....
One of the CLASSIC tactics an ALLIED player does is run and hide his carriers until late '43 when he can overwhelm a japanese player and this is just WAY gamey.... America as a country would have stood for this.. hiding while men were dying and land being taken!!

I just thank god Andy did not do play this way and played pretty realistic.. When Sinjen and I were the Allies So I will refuse to play an Allied player (if I know he will turtle for 2 to 3 years) because the American population just would not stand for that... the doolittle raid is an example of that...



Late 1943 would be a bit much, but it's not until late in 1942 that the US can even put 6 CV's in the Pacific. And as the game includes absolutely none of the "Intelligence Advantage" that enabled the Allies to engage the Japanese earlier historically, it's pretty much common sense not to go "hunting" for KB while the odds (and the coordination rules) arestacked against you. Not being stupid is hardly "gamey".

(in reply to Enforcer)
Post #: 52
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 4/3/2008 10:59:03 PM   
hartwig.modrow

 

Posts: 779
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffs

3. A typical Japanese tactic in this game, predicated on the knowledge the US is reading the mail, is to prep an LCU for a target Japan has no idea of attacking, such that the allies are confused over IJN intentions. Very gamey/slimey, but well within the rules.


You mean like indicating you are going to invade near Calais while really aiming at the Normandy in the knowledge the enemy is gathering intelligence?

Hartwig

(in reply to jeffs)
Post #: 53
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 4/5/2008 4:58:48 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22515
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hartwig.modrow


quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffs

3. A typical Japanese tactic in this game, predicated on the knowledge the US is reading the mail, is to prep an LCU for a target Japan has no idea of attacking, such that the allies are confused over IJN intentions. Very gamey/slimey, but well within the rules.


You mean like indicating you are going to invade near Calais while really aiming at the Normandy in the knowledge the enemy is gathering intelligence?

Hartwig

The point is, it is taking advantage of the known game mechanics... the Japanese did not believe what the Allies were doing was possible.

(in reply to hartwig.modrow)
Post #: 54
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 4/5/2008 5:55:10 PM   
hartwig.modrow

 

Posts: 779
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
The point is, it is taking advantage of the known game mechanics... the Japanese did not believe what the Allies were doing was possible.


Not sure - but that may be because a) I am not an expert on the Pacific War and b) I tend to be member of the "balanced gameplay" fraction on this forum.

So you say that Japan did not try to feed wrong information to their opponents (I think everybody else did in WWII, but am not sure about that either) and did not realize at least after a few strange coincidences that the respective channels were not secure ? Because if it did, I don't think there can possibly be anything gamey about it.

In addition, it is quite strange that the info the Allies get is always reliable. This is not real life (see the Normandy example above) - does that mean using intel info as Allied is gamey, because it exploits this weakness of the game engine ?

If the engine would generate some bits of random information to mirror intel which is actually wrong, I might agree about the "gamey" aspect IF Japan never tried feeding wrong information. Otherwise, it is just fine for me - at least as long as no corresponding house rule is created. As it is, I think it is completely fine to feed wrong information - especially, as you pay for it with a unit prepped for the wrong target and cannot guarantee that this bit of information will arrive. Just my personal opinion.

One thing that should be blocked (perhaps in AE ? But I guess it is to late to put it on that wish list) is that Nippon can get to know what intel the Allied side gets via the text file in the save directory. That should only be written for the Allied player.

Hartwig

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 55
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 4/5/2008 5:59:04 PM   
jeffs


Posts: 644
Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Tokyo
Status: offline 		Exactly...Let`s say you are looking to invade NZ...You might prep a couple of units for there. But you also prep a bunch of units for the Aluetians, even when the plan is for them to also go into NZ.

The only reason you are doing this is you know the allies are reading your mail.

I am not saying it is against game rules. Clearly it is not.

But what I am saying is historically Japan did not know the mail was being read, therefore, in real life, Japan would not have sent out a bunch of fake orders.

One could come up with a house rule asking Japan not to purposely put out fake orders...At the same time, it would need to retain some flexibility in cancelling operations that go awry.

The allies were able to go fight because the knew the odds. (historically)
And even then they showed a great deal of guts given the situation.

But with much less knowledge of IJN dispositions and the knowledge that the Japanese know you are getting info on Japanese dispositions leads to much more conservative play...That and most Japanese players will not break up the KB as much as done historically leads to more conservative (and deservedly so!) play by the allies.
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: hartwig.modrow


quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffs

3. A typical Japanese tactic in this game, predicated on the knowledge the US is reading the mail, is to prep an LCU for a target Japan has no idea of attacking, such that the allies are confused over IJN intentions. Very gamey/slimey, but well within the rules.


You mean like indicating you are going to invade near Calais while really aiming at the Normandy in the knowledge the enemy is gathering intelligence?

Hartwig

The point is, it is taking advantage of the known game mechanics... the Japanese did not believe what the Allies were doing was possible.



_____________________________

To quote from Evans/Peattie`s {Kaigun}
"Mistakes in operations and tactics can be corrected, but
political and strategic mistakes live forever". The authors were refering to Japan but the same could be said of the US misadventure in Iraq

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 56
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 4/11/2008 1:44:52 AM   
pmath

 

Posts: 102
Joined: 2/19/2004
Status: offline 		The house rules Japanese players sometimes insist on can definitely affect Allied players opportunity to oppose. I don't know which rules you like, but that has an effeect on Allied options.

(in reply to Enforcer)
Post #: 57
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 4/11/2008 2:33:06 PM   
gladiatt


Posts: 2528
Joined: 4/10/2008
Status: offline
Hi
I think a military genius call Napoleon explain that when you can't face an opponent, you have to flee until you find a way to defeat him peacemal.

Also don't forget CLausewitz (or was it Sun Tzu ?) : "He who defend everything défend nothing" . So in most time you'd better run (like the expression "brave Sir Robin; by the way, did they eat the bard ??), hide somewhere, build up your force, and counterattack when you feel there's a opportunity to win something.....

That's just my opinion, and even if newbie in Witp, i've played wargames for 20 years or so: this kind of strategy never was told "unfair" by any opponent...simply you do what you can whith what you have.


(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 58
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 4/11/2008 10:30:39 PM   
aphrochine


Posts: 187
Joined: 3/24/2008
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt


Hi
I think a military genius call Napoleon explain that when you can't face an opponent, you have to flee until you find a way to defeat him peacemal.

Also don't forget CLausewitz (or was it Sun Tzu ?) : "He who defend everything défend nothing" . So in most time you'd better run (like the expression "brave Sir Robin; by the way, did they eat the bard ??), hide somewhere, build up your force, and counterattack when you feel there's a opportunity to win something.....

That's just my opinion, and even if newbie in Witp, i've played wargames for 20 years or so: this kind of strategy never was told "unfair" by any opponent...simply you do what you can whith what you have.





Thats all fine and good, but when you have national morale, as well as the morale of your men to be concerned with, always running until you have sufficient strength isnt always an option. Propoganda was a powerful tool during WW2, and both sides, being engaged in 'total war', needed victories to promote the war effort. You dont get those victories by parking your CVs in an obsure corner of the map.

Most wargames do not account for this dynamic of modern warfare.

_____________________________

VMF-422 fanboy
Grog Virgin fanboy

(in reply to gladiatt)
Post #: 59
RE: Hoping for REAL players.. NOT turtles!! - 4/11/2008 11:00:15 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22515
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aphrochine


quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt


Hi
I think a military genius call Napoleon explain that when you can't face an opponent, you have to flee until you find a way to defeat him peacemal.

Also don't forget CLausewitz (or was it Sun Tzu ?) : "He who defend everything défend nothing" . So in most time you'd better run (like the expression "brave Sir Robin; by the way, did they eat the bard ??), hide somewhere, build up your force, and counterattack when you feel there's a opportunity to win something.....

That's just my opinion, and even if newbie in Witp, i've played wargames for 20 years or so: this kind of strategy never was told "unfair" by any opponent...simply you do what you can whith what you have.





Thats all fine and good, but when you have national morale, as well as the morale of your men to be concerned with, always running until you have sufficient strength isnt always an option. Propoganda was a powerful tool during WW2, and both sides, being engaged in 'total war', needed victories to promote the war effort. You dont get those victories by parking your CVs in an obsure corner of the map.

Most wargames do not account for this dynamic of modern warfare.

Most players supply this element for themselves... they get tired of waiting around, and strike before the iron is hot.

The game offers enough artificialities into history that it is NOT advisable for an Allied player to try to play the game modeled after the way the Allies actually did... and it certainly does not pay to try to play the game the way a Japanese player wants it to be played.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 4/12/2008 5:47:47 PM >

(in reply to aphrochine)
Post #: 60
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