Matrix Games

quote:

ORIGINAL: Enforcer

I read a post earlier about GAMEY tactics....
One of the CLASSIC tactics an ALLIED player does is run and hide his carriers until late '43 when he can overwhelm a japanese player and this is just WAY gamey.... America as a country would have stood for this.. hiding while men were dying and land being taken!!

I just thank god Andy did not do play this way and played pretty realistic.. When Sinjen and I were the Allies .. We were
planning offensive operation on Dec 8th.. we actually made our opponent resign in mid '42 because all his CV's were sunk or 6 months in drydock along with all BB's.. Force Z and the US Pac Fleet ruled the waves! DEI, Singapore, Rangoon, Rabaul never fell and the phils were already preping to recieve reinforcement.

So I will refuse to play an Allied player (if I know he will turtle for 2 to 3 years) because the American population just would not stand for that... the doolittle raid is an example of that...

No matter if Sijen or I are Allied or Axis we cannot do that!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I'm with Niceguy and Yava here... I am not going to send my forces into a situation where they will be overwhelmed unless I believe that the payoff is greater than the cost. What I find to be gamey are folks who will throw away their assets on a whim, because they're only 0's and 1's and thus it doesn't really matter if you lose them.

The original post seems to me to be rather like having your schoolyard rival taunting you "Awww, c'mon...what are you, chicken?" knowing that the headmaster is walking up behind you, ready to meet out punishment to whoever he sees throwing a punch...

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

If the Americans lose 2 CVs early to mid '42, it really puts you into a bind of what you can do offensively until they are close to their respawn dates. Hindsight is great when you play a game like WitP. If the Japanese player can have a "Midway" come out in their favor, the Allied player is on his heals until later '43 or later. So a careful use of them is prudent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphrochine

I dont get the feeling that anyone has really addressed the OPs issue. That being the classic turtle strategy where a player sits back, loads up on defensive strong points, and then powers up overwhelming numbers. While lame and very ahistorical for the allies in pto, this is a valid strategy against newer players in nearly every strategy game in existance....but quite honestly, its flawed. If you execute a turtle strat, you are betting that your opponent is newbish and does not know how to defeat it with their knowledge of game mechanics, or lack thereof. You are completely and totally giving your opponent initiative+time+space. Do it, and you may win against a newer player who cant crack your nut in time, but not a skilled veteran.

The OP is griping about this strategy, and while I'm still new to witp, I'm not new to the frustrations of turtling. Those who gripe about turtles usually lack a strong enough skill in the game's mechanics to overcome the strategy. Granted there are games, through design flaw, where it becomes difficult or impossible to defeat a turtle strat (aok vanilla for example), but usually it is beatable; it just requires a few tips and a pat on the butt from a seasoned veteran.

I think the point of this thread could be to share key strategies and tactics for a newer Jap player to overcome said allied strategy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
Well said, but the tactic to defeat this strategy is to take away the hiding places. Short of this there's no way to defeat the allied production machine (which all occurs off map).

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphrochine

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
Well said, but the tactic to defeat this strategy is to take away the hiding places. Short of this there's no way to defeat the allied production machine (which all occurs off map).

So if you havent forced a victory by the end of '42, its over because there is no defeating Allied production??

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphrochine

I dont get the feeling that anyone has really addressed the OPs issue.  That being the classic turtle strategy where a player sits back, loads up on defensive strong points, and then powers up overwhelming numbers.  While lame and very ahistorical for the allies in pto, this is a valid strategy against newer players in nearly every strategy game in existance....but quite honestly, its flawed.  If you execute a turtle strat, you are betting that your opponent is newbish and does not know how to defeat it with their knowledge of game mechanics, or lack thereof.  You are completely and totally giving your opponent initiative+time+space.  Do it, and you may win against a newer player who cant crack your nut in time, but not a skilled veteran.

The OP is griping about this strategy, and while I'm still new to witp, I'm not new to the frustrations of turtling.  Those who gripe about turtles usually lack a strong enough skill in the game's mechanics to overcome the strategy.  Granted there are games, through design flaw, where it becomes difficult or impossible to defeat a turtle strat (aok vanilla for example), but usually it is beatable; it just requires a few tips and a pat on the butt from a seasoned veteran.

I think the point of this thread could be to share key strategies and tactics for a newer Jap player to overcome said allied strategy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm sure Allied players would be happy to use their CVs as was done in the war (committing two or three at a time on raids against the Marshalls, or to try to blunt a Japanese offensive aka Battle of the Coral Sea) if the Japanese player was also using his CVs historically (committing just a handful in Coral Sea or Battle of Eastern Solomons or Midway). But in the game, unlike in real life, the Jap player usually masses his CVs with devastating results. The Allied player would be stupid to commit his CVs against the massed KB. So both players are playing a-historically. So what?

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm sure Allied players would be happy to use their CVs as was done in the war (committing two or three at a time on raids against the Marshalls, or to try to blunt a Japanese offensive aka Battle of the Coral Sea) if the Japanese player was also using his CVs historically (committing just a handful in Coral Sea or Battle of Eastern Solomons or Midway). But in the game, unlike in real life, the Jap player usually masses his CVs with devastating results. The Allied player would be stupid to commit his CVs against the massed KB. So both players are playing a-historically. So what?

If the Japanese player masses his CVs the Allied player should do the same, combining UK and US CVs and prepare them to counter the Japanese advance where ever it occurs. Put Halsey and Spraunce onboard and attack wherever the air space is at least neutral. As the Allies all you need to do is take out 3 or more IJN CVs. LBA and superior Allied production will take care of the rest.

The MOST dangerous thing in this game for an Allied player is an unchecked KB.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm sure Allied players would be happy to use their CVs as was done in the war (committing two or three at a time on raids against the Marshalls, or to try to blunt a Japanese offensive aka Battle of the Coral Sea) if the Japanese player was also using his CVs historically (committing just a handful in Coral Sea or Battle of Eastern Solomons or Midway).  But in the game, unlike in real life, the Jap player usually masses his CVs with devastating results.  The Allied player would be stupid to commit his CVs against the massed KB.  So both players are playing a-historically.  So what?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled


I think the "turtle" strategy (aka "Brave Sir Robin") is a creation more from the type of opponent you are playing then a "prefered tactic". At the start of the game, the Japanese player (especially "veteran players") has the advantage of knowing where every allied unit starts the game and what the allied capabilities are. IMO, this is one of the biggest reasons the Japanese player has a tendency to move faster than IRL. When the Japanese play "Blitzkrieg in the Pacific", there is not much the allied player can do to stop him. The Japanese player playing in this fashion will usually mass everything to go after those "non-historic" targets, and the allied player has a choice of running away, or to stand and fight and risk losing everything which will then allow Japan to take more "non-historic" bases early in the war.

If the Japanese player would slow down to a more historic pace, I think you would see less of the "turtle" strategy and would see more smaller skirmishes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

A favorite tactic of one of my opponents is to mass his invasion fleet, 90% of his CVs, and his surface fleet in one hex as it moves to the target hex (this is April 42). Any land base planes I send out gets crushed against his cap and AA to the point where I usually don't have enough planes to launch more then one or two strikes. Any CV TF I send gets picked apart by the numerous Kates and Val. Any CV strike I launch has the same result as my land base strikes. If he can keep the range between his and my CV TF to 4 or 5, I'm toast. Plus, he puts just about every Nell and Betty he has on the closest size 3 or 4 AF (maybe even a size 2 sometimes). Not much my CV TF can do against a Betty strike of 300 planes.