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RE: Tactical Reserve & Local Reserve

 
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RE: Tactical Reserve & Local Reserve - 1/28/2008 1:27:32 PM   
STIENER

 

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RHINOBONES

a little off topic but what were the call signs of the other 2 rhino's?? you were bones......
and out of curiosity what raank did you hold? im just interested is all.. nothing to do really with the post ...altho i am reading it with interest.

thanks
stiener

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 31
RE: Tactical Reserve & Local Reserve - 1/28/2008 8:56:10 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Okay, they're either dispersed along a 10 km (the hex they're in and one of the two hexes they can exert a zone of control over) front, or they're concentrated at some road junction pending an order to move. In the latter case, they probably can be on the road in an hour. That leaves them fifteen hours of a sixteen hour day to get to where they are wanted.

In the former case, add an hour to get the word out and three hours to physically assemble -- plus the hour to do whatever they did to get ready when they were already assembled.

So it's eleven hours of actual movement and fighting or whatever in the new position versus fifteen hours.


This isn't right- this movement takes place in just one round. So 2.4 hours. In other words, your former case can do it, your latter case can't.


...that's an interesting point. The reaction time of an unentrenched unit is going to be substantially less than that of one that is dispersed and dug in -- even if the delay doesn't eat up most of the turn.

Sort of like letting the firemen take all the firetrucks home for the weekend. Sure, they can still get to all the fires that break out on Saturday and Sunday -- difficulty is how soon they get to them.

It gets back to scale and time-period. While I'm perfectly prepared to grant that modern American infantry companies can hop on the choppers within half an hour regardless of their deployment when the call comes in, the same doesn't apply to larger organizations operating with more ponderous command and communication networks.

After all, the French in 1940 famously had no reserve available when the Germans broke through. Rhinobones et al notwithstanding, the troops already on the line were not able to promptly pull out, rush south, and block the German penetration.


< Message edited by ColinWright -- 1/28/2008 8:57:03 PM >


_____________________________

"...this country belongs to us, to the white man."

-- Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai, interview published on 6/3/2012. Interesting world.

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Post #: 32
RE: Tactical Reserve & Local Reserve - 1/28/2008 9:52:34 PM   
Karri

 

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I'd also like to know what kind of unit is in a 24/7 readiness to hop into trucks and go to the counter-attack. Especially if close to frontlines, within artillery range...as Rommel said, the best friend of infantry is spade.

(in reply to ColinWright)
Post #: 33
RE: Tactical Reserve & Local Reserve - 1/28/2008 10:21:46 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

I'd also like to know what kind of unit is in a 24/7 readiness to hop into trucks and go to the counter-attack. Especially if close to frontlines, within artillery range...as Rommel said, the best friend of infantry is spade.



Well, I was just looking at British deployments for I and II Corps in Flanders on 15 May 1940 (Ellis, p.47). Five divisions, three up and two back. In each division that was on the line, two brigades up and one back. A net of four brigades dug-in and on the line out of fifteen theoretically available.

While this doesn't prove all the others were standing by as reserves as opposed to being dug in somewhere, it does suggest a strong aversion to having all units committed to the line...and a lack of faith in a doctrine that would hold that units can simultaneously be in a defensive deployment and able to act as reserves.

As a rule, I don't think troops are simultaneously available to function as reserves and deployed so as to defend a section of a defensive line. They may well be deployed with an eye to defending their particular locality, but that's an entirely different matter from being spread out and holding a full length of defensive frontage, as an 'entrenched' status in OPART implies they are.

Of course, there are all sorts of half-way points that OPART can't reflect -- but I'm not convinced allowing units to be simultaneously entrenched and also on 'reserve' status would improve TOAW's fidelity to reality.

_____________________________

"...this country belongs to us, to the white man."

-- Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai, interview published on 6/3/2012. Interesting world.

(in reply to Karri)
Post #: 34
RE: Tactical Reserve & Local Reserve - 1/28/2008 11:37:32 PM   
Karri

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Well, I was just looking at British deployments for I and II Corps in Flanders on 15 May 1940 (Ellis, p.47). Five divisions, three up and two back. In each division that was on the line, two brigades up and one back. A net of four brigades dug-in and on the line out of fifteen theoretically available.

While this doesn't prove all the others were standing by as reserves as opposed to being dug in somewhere, it does suggest a strong aversion to having all units committed to the line...and a lack of faith in a doctrine that would hold that units can simultaneously be in a defensive deployment and able to act as reserves.


It's defence in depth...I would assume the other brigades were at least in some sort of defensive posture as opposed to standing ready to move.

quote:


As a rule, I don't think troops are simultaneously available to function as reserves and deployed so as to defend a section of a defensive line. They may well be deployed with an eye to defending their particular locality, but that's an entirely different matter from being spread out and holding a full length of defensive frontage, as an 'entrenched' status in OPART implies they are.

Of course, there are all sorts of half-way points that OPART can't reflect -- but I'm not convinced allowing units to be simultaneously entrenched and also on 'reserve' status would improve TOAW's fidelity to reality.


As said at least in comapny level this is the case, the units are ready to move and in well chosen spot to defend in. The only problem would probaply be with artillery, but that would depend on the scale again.

If we would then assume that the hex is overcrowded, and that all 9 untis have to just defend their 'locallity'? As a rule of thumb I'd say it's a question fo tiem and scale. For example with weekly turns it would be possible, with half week turns, well Patton did it with an entire army. Why not an unit that alrady knows where to move.

(in reply to ColinWright)
Post #: 35
RE: Tactical Reserve & Local Reserve - 1/29/2008 1:16:49 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri


quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Well, I was just looking at British deployments for I and II Corps in Flanders on 15 May 1940 (Ellis, p.47). Five divisions, three up and two back. In each division that was on the line, two brigades up and one back. A net of four brigades dug-in and on the line out of fifteen theoretically available.

While this doesn't prove all the others were standing by as reserves as opposed to being dug in somewhere, it does suggest a strong aversion to having all units committed to the line...and a lack of faith in a doctrine that would hold that units can simultaneously be in a defensive deployment and able to act as reserves.


It's defence in depth...I would assume the other brigades were at least in some sort of defensive posture as opposed to standing ready to move.

quote:


As a rule, I don't think troops are simultaneously available to function as reserves and deployed so as to defend a section of a defensive line. They may well be deployed with an eye to defending their particular locality, but that's an entirely different matter from being spread out and holding a full length of defensive frontage, as an 'entrenched' status in OPART implies they are.

Of course, there are all sorts of half-way points that OPART can't reflect -- but I'm not convinced allowing units to be simultaneously entrenched and also on 'reserve' status would improve TOAW's fidelity to reality.


As said at least in comapny level this is the case, the units are ready to move and in well chosen spot to defend in. The only problem would probaply be with artillery, but that would depend on the scale again.

If we would then assume that the hex is overcrowded, and that all 9 untis have to just defend their 'locallity'? As a rule of thumb I'd say it's a question fo tiem and scale. For example with weekly turns it would be possible, with half week turns, well Patton did it with an entire army. Why not an unit that alrady knows where to move.



I don't think so. There's no mention of these units forming a second line that the advance battalions withdrew to at any point -- nor is there any reason to think that they did. Rather, they were held ready to counter-attack German penetrations -- and that is what they did.

The discussion could go on interminably. One can always speculate as to what battalions that weren't up front were doing instead, or shift what example one considers-- as you just did -- or -- as 'Golden Delicious' did -- shift the time frame under consideration from the whole turn to the time needed to react.

For some large part of the possible combinations of time and scale, the change would not necessarily be an improvement, and in any case, it wouldn't affect the tactics I use one whit. To my mind, that's sufficient to prefer that programming energy go elsewhere. There are plenty of potential changes that unequivocally would be improvements, and that would be relevant to my style of play.


< Message edited by ColinWright -- 1/29/2008 1:20:49 AM >


_____________________________

"...this country belongs to us, to the white man."

-- Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai, interview published on 6/3/2012. Interesting world.

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Post #: 36
RE: Tactical Reserve & Local Reserve - 1/29/2008 4:27:45 PM   
rhinobones

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
. . . and in any case, it wouldn't affect the tactics I use one whit. To my mind, that's sufficient to prefer that programming energy go elsewhere. There are plenty of potential changes that unequivocally would be improvements, and that would be relevant to my style of play.


In summary, this is the basis of your argument.

Regards, RhinoBones

(in reply to ColinWright)
Post #: 37
RE: Tactical Reserve & Local Reserve - 1/29/2008 5:12:33 PM   
brucekg

 

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OK, OK. Take it outside before I call the SP.

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RE: Tactical Reserve & Local Reserve - 1/29/2008 9:18:11 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones


quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
. . . and in any case, it wouldn't affect the tactics I use one whit. To my mind, that's sufficient to prefer that programming energy go elsewhere. There are plenty of potential changes that unequivocally would be improvements, and that would be relevant to my style of play.


In summary, this is the basis of your argument.

Regards, RhinoBones



Lol. Even going by the bit you quote, that's a transparently inaccurate statement. It's amazing you can't see that.

The irony of it is that the bits you are seizing on are in fact there because I am attempting to acknowledge that my attitude is to some extent dependent upon my own style of play. That is to say, others may indeed feel differently, and that's okay -- they just don't have my vote.

So I'm trying to be reasonably polite -- and all you can find in that is more grist to your mill. I see in that a comment on you -- not on me.

< Message edited by ColinWright -- 1/29/2008 10:30:01 PM >


_____________________________

"...this country belongs to us, to the white man."

-- Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai, interview published on 6/3/2012. Interesting world.

(in reply to rhinobones)
Post #: 39
RE: Tactical Reserve & Local Reserve - 1/29/2008 9:20:16 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brucekg

OK, OK. Take it outside before I call the SP.



Kind of funny, really. I mean, it's like there's this guy who's getting all worked up about how I like flashy ties.

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"...this country belongs to us, to the white man."

-- Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai, interview published on 6/3/2012. Interesting world.

(in reply to brucekg)
Post #: 40
RE: Tactical Reserve & Local Reserve - 2/2/2008 2:37:32 PM   
cymloveselva

 

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I would really like to know the reason Mr. Norm put these two options into the game...

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RE: Tactical Reserve & Local Reserve - 2/2/2008 2:58:19 PM   
Karri

 

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I think this situation can only be solved with random executions.

(in reply to cymloveselva)
Post #: 42
RE: Tactical Reserve & Local Reserve - 2/2/2008 3:12:21 PM   
invernomuto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Artillery supports cooperative units within range on defense . Don't use Tactical or Local settings as the units will then move around willy-nilly and either run into a ground attack or move in a silly direction.

Artillery on Tactical Reserve no longer does this. It will support without moving. This change was in the last patch, or the one before. Forget which.



But does Art units digged in support hexes in range attacked by enemy units? If so, what's the benefit of setting arts in Tactical reserve?



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Post #: 43
RE: Tactical Reserve & Local Reserve - 2/2/2008 3:19:14 PM   
Karri

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: invernomuto


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Artillery supports cooperative units within range on defense . Don't use Tactical or Local settings as the units will then move around willy-nilly and either run into a ground attack or move in a silly direction.

Artillery on Tactical Reserve no longer does this. It will support without moving. This change was in the last patch, or the one before. Forget which.



But does Art units digged in support hexes in range attacked by enemy units? If so, what's the benefit of setting arts in Tactical reserve?




1. If they have no MP's left and thus can't dig in, you can set them on Tactical Reserve, and thus they support everything.
2. If your turn ends early and you haven't dig them in, but have them on TR they give the support.
3. When on the attack they support.

(in reply to invernomuto)
Post #: 44
RE: Tactical Reserve & Local Reserve - 2/2/2008 4:21:21 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: invernomuto
But does Art units digged in support hexes in range attacked by enemy units? If so, what's the benefit of setting arts in Tactical reserve?


If you dig them in, they can't directly support attacks for the rest of the turn, and they can't move, to keep up with the advance of the front for the rest of the turn.

In tactical reserve, they provide the same indirect support as dug-in, plus, when the combat round catches up to them they can provide direct support, and if the front advances, they can still be moved forward to stay in range of the action.

(in reply to invernomuto)
Post #: 45
RE: Tactical Reserve & Local Reserve - 2/2/2008 6:09:10 PM   
a white rabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright


quote:

ORIGINAL: brucekg

OK, OK. Take it outside before I call the SP.



Kind of funny, really. I mean, it's like there's this guy who's getting all worked up about how I like flashy ties.


..figures...

..tho i'd have thought belt-buckles, but, i can't be right all the time..

..me, i go for waistcoats..


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Post #: 46
RE: Tactical Reserve & Local Reserve - 2/2/2008 7:43:15 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

I think this situation can only be solved with random executions.


Worked when I was a school teacher.


< Message edited by ColinWright -- 2/2/2008 7:46:58 PM >


_____________________________

"...this country belongs to us, to the white man."

-- Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai, interview published on 6/3/2012. Interesting world.

(in reply to Karri)
Post #: 47
RE: Tactical Reserve & Local Reserve - 6/13/2012 3:58:05 PM   
Champagne


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Could we re-visit this great thread? Are any updates necessary in light of the latest versions of the game?

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Post #: 48
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