Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

'Three New Game Editions'

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> 'Three New Game Editions' Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 10:02:59 AM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline
Dear, oh dear. This is just spin to cover the fact that most printed manuals will now be black and white rather than colour. Game manuals, or at least anything including screenshots (which is virtually all of them) need to be in colour. How much more will people have to pay for the rip-o.. sorry, 'Collectors' editions?

Please give this misguided policy a rethink, and continue to supply all physical copies with the necessary colour manuals.

< Message edited by Hertston -- 1/16/2008 10:08:16 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 10:18:29 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8552
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline
Well, I agree I think that it's a little spin to get away from supplying colour manuals with their games.

I mean, the shop is confusing in what is being bought, but please.....Collectros Edition?

Now, on Matrix side, I did wonder how they could supply a colour manual for £5.

But I'm not a fan of spin...Matrix, say it how it is please. We aren't stupid.


_____________________________

JudgeDredd
I AM the Law!

(in reply to Hertston)
Post #: 2
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 12:26:40 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
Now, on Matrix side, I did wonder how they could supply a colour manual for £5.


Actually, when the manuals were announced, the price of the boxed editions didn't go up. In essence the manuals were a "free" addition. I guess this has become financially unbearable given that printing isn't cheap.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 3
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 12:42:18 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8552
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline
hmm...I thought the price to be charged was $10?

Maybe not, but the problem I have is not the price increase but the smoke screen. They could make the website more "informative" without using creating a news item which is really just flouncing around the fact that they are putting the price of manuals up.

As I said, I don't have a problem with the increase...printing isn't cheap. One could also argue that making it "two tier" will help customers who can afford to pay for a nice colour manual receive such and the ones who can't still have the option of a manual, albeit black and white.

Hell, for me, it's just another option and options are good.

The wary in me is asking why the smoke screen? And how much are these teirs going to be.

For a company who don't like political talk in their forums, that press release could've been written by one. I just wished they had said it how it is....

...manuals are expensive to create (and getting no cheaper) so we have to increase the price of those. We will, however, create black and white manuals which will cost you much less and, whilst we are at it, we will be updating the website to make it more informative about what you are getting with the game.


_____________________________

JudgeDredd
I AM the Law!

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 4
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 1:53:01 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 33957
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
1. We are not increasing the price of the physical versions.
2. You may recall we just went through a change of printers which caused significant delays in the physical versions with the pre-Christmas releases. With the new printer, it's no longer affordable for us to print color manuals and keep the cost to $10 for hte physical version. We did not want to increase the cost, so we decided to go with black and white.
3. This release was not intended to "cover up" anything. It was intended to lay out clearly what our plans are for the future, which includes telling you exactly what you get in each edition before you buy it.
4. Most game manuals are in black and white, some have color covers. Our color game manuals were the only ones I'd seen in wargaming in a long, long time. Mainstream titles often have color manuals, but they're also usually 20 pages or less.
5. We're using the "collector's edition" term because we feel that color manuals are a fairly special thing in niche wargaming and so when we make the call to include those with a game we want to make sure people who really like color manuals will clearly know about it. Heck, printed manuals are not that common in this niche anymore, not to mention color. An example of games with color manuals are Empires in Arms and War in the Pacific.
6. The manuals look fine in black and white and are perfectly legible, we've tested it. Would they be nicer in color? Sure, but we'd also have to jack up the price which we didn't want to do.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 5
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 1:55:12 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 33957
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
Maybe not, but the problem I have is not the price increase but the smoke screen. They could make the website more "informative" without using creating a news item which is really just flouncing around the fact that they are putting the price of manuals up.


Where did we say we were increasing the price? We're not increasing the price.

quote:

As I said, I don't have a problem with the increase...printing isn't cheap. One could also argue that making it "two tier" will help customers who can afford to pay for a nice colour manual receive such and the ones who can't still have the option of a manual, albeit black and white.


Printing two separate versions of the manual for each game would be cost prohibitive, sorry.

quote:

...manuals are expensive to create (and getting no cheaper) so we have to increase the price of those. We will, however, create black and white manuals which will cost you much less and, whilst we are at it, we will be updating the website to make it more informative about what you are getting with the game.


How about this - we didn't discuss the price because the price isn't changing. The black and white manuals will not reduce the price, with the new printer they'll allow us to keep the price the same without losing money.

Regards,

- Erik


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 6
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 2:05:41 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8552
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline
Well I do appreciate your comments Erik. As I said in my post, I understand that printed colour manuals are expensive. I also said that more options are better...if you can't afford to produce colour manuals for the same price as previously, then to offer people the ability to buy a black and white manual for the same price is a good thing.

The wording of the release was what irked me. It all seemed to be guided around your users feedback and then dropping in a Collectors Edition whilst saying it, as if it was all one and the same.

Clearly colour manuals are expensive to make. To me, the two things are different...
  • customer feedback and a revamp of your site to allow customers to know what they're buying
  • games now have 3 categories, digital download, physical with black and white manual and physical with colour manual. The only increase will be for physical with colour manuals
To announce it the way it was appeared to be sending it in under the radar. If it wasn't then I apologise...but maybe that's just the way I read it.

Anyway, as I said, more options are good. If I cannot afford your Collectors edition, then I will buy Standard edition and once again, it's thanks to your company providing options that allows me to do so.

Any idea how much of an increase the Colelctors Editions will be? Or is it dependant on the size of the manual?


_____________________________

JudgeDredd
I AM the Law!

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 7
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 2:07:50 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 6376
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline
Erik,

Please take note that at least some of us would have preferred the price increase to the downgrade in product quality. Please don't waste your effort coming back with the argument that it isn't a downgrade because it was something special and extraordinary in the first place. It wouldn't be a downgrade if you hadn't made the mistake of giving us the color ones in the first place. Since we got them now we have come to expect them as the standard, so the change is a downgrade from our perspective.



< Message edited by HansBolter -- 1/16/2008 2:08:51 PM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 8
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 2:10:51 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8552
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline
Ok I've just seen your response to mine.

I have no idea now what's being included...I was actually appluading the fact that you are providing black and white manuals for standard editions and colour for Collectors - that is what I meant by two tier. That is what is said, isn't it? Standard will get a black and white manual and collectors will get a colour manual?

Sorry. I'm lost.


_____________________________

JudgeDredd
I AM the Law!

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 9
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 2:12:35 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8552
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
Maybe not, but the problem I have is not the price increase but the smoke screen. They could make the website more "informative" without using creating a news item which is really just flouncing around the fact that they are putting the price of manuals up.


Where did we say we were increasing the price? We're not increasing the price.

quote:

As I said, I don't have a problem with the increase...printing isn't cheap. One could also argue that making it "two tier" will help customers who can afford to pay for a nice colour manual receive such and the ones who can't still have the option of a manual, albeit black and white.


Printing two separate versions of the manual for each game would be cost prohibitive, sorry.

quote:

...manuals are expensive to create (and getting no cheaper) so we have to increase the price of those. We will, however, create black and white manuals which will cost you much less and, whilst we are at it, we will be updating the website to make it more informative about what you are getting with the game.


How about this - we didn't discuss the price because the price isn't changing. The black and white manuals will not reduce the price, with the new printer they'll allow us to keep the price the same without losing money.

Regards,

- Erik


Right. I'll try again.

Is there going to be no price difference between the Standard Edition and the Collectors Edition?

_____________________________

JudgeDredd
I AM the Law!

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 10
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 2:14:30 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8552
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
How about this - we didn't discuss the price because the price isn't changing. The black and white manuals will not reduce the price, with the new printer they'll allow us to keep the price the same without losing money.

Regards,

- Erik


lol...u sound mad there Erik.

_____________________________

JudgeDredd
I AM the Law!

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 11
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 2:33:52 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 33957
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
How about this - we didn't discuss the price because the price isn't changing. The black and white manuals will not reduce the price, with the new printer they'll allow us to keep the price the same without losing money.

Regards,

- Erik


lol...u sound mad there Erik.


Not mad, sorry - just woke up with a headache. I probably shouldn't post with a headache, but I don't see anyone else around waiting to respond to questions, so...

I want to make this key point. This release describes our catalog _as it already is_. We already have titles with no manuals, black and white manuals and color manuals. There's just no clear way for the customer to tell at this time. The editions with their logos will clear that up.

The pricing on all physical versions will not change. Just as it is right now, it's going to be $10 across the board.

The reason for this release was two-fold. First, we wanted to find a solution for the _many_ questions we get on a frequent basis as to which game has printed manuals, which game is PDF only, etc. Second, after we had to change printers, we had to make a decision. That change happened right before the Christmas season and we were lucky to find the printer we did, which allowed us to continue the "on demand" printed manual program. It was either go to black and white for the majority of manuals or end the printed manuals alltogether. I think I know what you all would have chosen.

We certainly would have liked to continue with all color manuals, but that decision was in the end made by printing prices rather than us. Hans, I hear you on that, but we can't make it feasible to print two sets of manuals for each game. It was a bonus though, even though you don't want to hear it, but yeah it will also seem like a downgrade now. There's still some color printed manual stock in the warehouse though, grab them while we've got them. Up until the last year, whenever we did a printed manual it was in black and white and we had no complaints. We decided that for some releases that are already up there in price we could afford to still go the extra mile and do a color manual - we've had folks tell us that they loved the color manuals as "collector's items" so we decided to call that a collector's edition.

The black and white manuals are not done cheaply - they're good print quality on good stock and having already seen them, I'm confident that customers will like them too. I'm sorry to see the brief era of "all color printed manuals" come to an end, but the change in printers made it impossible to continue (it took us over a year to make that possible in the first place - we certainly expected it to last in perpetuity, but reality had other ideas).

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 12
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 2:47:39 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8552
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline
Ok....So printed manuals will cease for new products and black and white will be the norm?

Also, for the games which have colour printed manuals, they will be collectors editions? And no price increase?

Well I owe you an apology for mentioning a price increase. It's my experience in the gaming world (or any other walk of life) that collectors editions cost more...so I jumped to the conclusion that this was the case (although I did say that it was understanable and no big deal).

Also, I didn't know you were ceasing colour manuals for good.

So in the future, future games will not have a Collectors Edition? See, this is what I understood...that new games released by you were going to come in 3 flavours.

My bad


_____________________________

JudgeDredd
I AM the Law!

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 13
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 2:49:28 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8552
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline
In fact, it does say exactly that

quote:

A Collector’s Edition is the same as a Standard Edition with the exception that the printed manual is in color rather than black and white.  This designation is rare and will be rolled out later in the year for new releases and one or two titles in the existing catalog



_____________________________

JudgeDredd
I AM the Law!

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 14
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 3:37:01 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 33957
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
Ok....So printed manuals will cease for new products and black and white will be the norm?


Er, no. It's like this - we currently have games with only PDF manuals, games with printed color manuals and games with printed black and white manuals. That's how things will stay and new releases will be a mix of those editions depending on how we feel a game will best fit the catalog. So there will be some new releases that are PDF only, others that have printed manuals and others that have color printed manuals. That's why we needed to come up with some way to inform customers as to which is which so that people aren't ordering a "digital express" physical version thinking it includes a manual.

quote:

Also, for the games which have colour printed manuals, they will be collectors editions? And no price increase?


Right, they'll be called Collector's Editions just to signify that their printed manuals are in color.

quote:

Well I owe you an apology for mentioning a price increase. It's my experience in the gaming world (or any other walk of life) that collectors editions cost more...so I jumped to the conclusion that this was the case (although I did say that it was understanable and no big deal).


No problem, I just had no idea where that came from, sorry if my reply sounded curt.

quote:

Also, I didn't know you were ceasing colour manuals for good.


Er, no. We're not, we're just doing color manuals rarely and in special cases, like the upcoming War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition.

quote:

So in the future, future games will not have a Collectors Edition? See, this is what I understood...that new games released by you were going to come in 3 flavours.


No, not at all. Each game will only be of one edition. In the future, new releases will be EITHER Digital Express, Standard OR Collector's Editions. That will let you know whether the game comes with a PDF manual, Printed Manual or Printed Color Manual. Apparently, the press release was totally unclear, I'll take the blame for that. Sometimes it's just not easy to see that something is confusing when you already understand it.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 15
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 3:43:06 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 33957
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Let me try to make this more clear. Editions define what a game is, they are not multiple options within a game, they are the definition of the game and each game only has one edition.

Let's say that next month we release games X, Y and Z.

Game X is released as a Digital Express Edition. That means that it will have the usual download and physical versions. However, the physical version will come with the box, CD and that's it. The manual will be on CD as a PDF E-Book. This is how Game X is packaged and there is no option to get a printed manual for Game X. There is no Standard or Collector's Edition of Game X.

Game Y is released as a Standard Edition. In addition to the usual download version, it will have a physical version that includes a black and white printed manual, box and CD. The manual will also be available as the usual PDF E-Book. This is how Game Y is packaged and there is no physical option to get it without a printed manual (other than the download) or a color manual (all printed manuals for Game Y will be black and white). There is no Digital Express or Collector's Edition of Game Y.

Game Z is released as a Collector's Edition. In addition to the usual download version, it will have a physical version that includes a color printed manual, box and CD. The manual will also be available as the usual PDF E-Book. This is how Game Z is packaged and there is no physical option to get it without a printed manual (other than the download) or a black and whilte manual (all printed manuals for Game Z will be color). There is no Digital Express or Standard Edition of Game Z.

All of the above games will stay at the same physical price that products just like them are now in our catalog, in other words US $10 more than the download price.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 16
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 3:48:15 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8552
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline
Perfectly clear now and all fine by me. Colour would be nice, but black and white over nothing is fine by me.

But...if I could just add....

If it's not financially feasible to create colour manuals (which I again agree with), how can you do it for some? Is it because some games sell/will sell better than others and therefore printing a colour manual would be is ok for these?

By the way, this quote from me
quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
Ok....So printed manuals will cease for new products and black and white will be the norm?
...it's a misprint by me...I didn't mean "So printed manuals will cease for new products"...I meant "So colour printed manuals will cease for new products"

But as you've already pointed out, that won't be the case.

And it does seem that I got the wrong end of the stick. I thought games would be released as Digital Express, Standard and Collector editions at the same time...which is why I didn't get there wouldn't be a price increase...I mean, why create a Standard and a Collectors edition and charge the same price.

Anyway, thx for clearing it up. Sorry I made your bad head worse (or in fact brought it on!!)


< Message edited by JudgeDredd -- 1/16/2008 3:57:01 PM >


_____________________________

JudgeDredd
I AM the Law!

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 17
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 3:52:19 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 33957
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
If it's not financially feasible to create colour manuals (which I again agree with), how can you do it for some? Is it because some games sell/will sell better than others and therefore printing a colour manual would be is ok for these?


Two factors, yes - we would make that decision based on the fact that a game is expected to sell very well (and thus we can order the manual in larger quantities) and also because it has a high price point which would help cover any excess manual cost.

quote:

Anyway, thks for clearing it up. Sorry I made your bad head worse (or in fact brought it on!!)


No problem at all, I had been awake for about ten minutes when I made my first post, so I beg forgiveness if I came across as a bit brusque.

Regards,

- Erik


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 18
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 7:42:09 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Not mad, sorry - just woke up with a headache. I probably shouldn't post with a headache, but I don't see anyone else around waiting to respond to questions, so...


Talking about questions and responding - you might want to have a look here :

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=18

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 19
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/16/2008 8:40:24 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 33957
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Done - I keep forgetting to check that forum since it's not for official support.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 20
RE: 'Three New Game Editions' - 1/17/2008 2:10:41 AM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3628
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline
Well, i'm gonna say this much. I like a company that takes the time to address issues in their forums. This shows me that Matrix cares about how their customers feel and I'll be with you guys for a while.


_____________________________

After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 21
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> 'Three New Game Editions' Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.144