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Overpriced DVDs? - 1/8/2008 11:07:09 AM   
JudgeDredd


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There was another topic on here about Blue Ray being accepted as the standard now for DVDs.

I'm more than a little concerned about this because just recently I noticed a Blue Ray DVD in the shop and it was £25 ($50).

Now I am to DVDs what Ravinhood is to gaming (a little)....a bargain bin purchaser where I don't "generally" buy a DVD unless it's on special, mainly because they are overpriced at £15 ($30). Ironically, the only DVDs I buy full price are the ones where I've already spent a small fortune on by seeing in the cinema (normally more than once).

The reason for this post is just to vent my frustration at the industry. They bitch and moan about people stealing their work (and rightly so) but at the same time push people away from legitimate purchases. I will not buy a DVD at £25...I just will not. That doesn't mean I will buy pirate copies, but it does mean they will lose a sale.

My own personal view is £25 for 2 hours entertainment is more than extreme. In my mind, £15 is too extreme.

Now I've thought for years that perhaps companies could "reward" people. So if you go to see a film at the cinema, then you get a £3-5 voucher off the DVD. The more times you see the film in the cinema, the more money off the DVD. Maybe to a maximum or something.

The reason the movie industry particularly grates me so is, as an example, I went to Lord of the Rings III and loved it. I went again and took my daughter. She loved it. I then went to watch it with my brother in law and loved it. I then bought the DVD when it came out...only to discover that I had been robbed, as the Directors Cust was released 3 months later. Now in total, I spent

  • £8 on the cinema for me
  • £14 on the Cinema for me and my daughter
  • £8 on the cinema for me wen I went with the brother in law
  • £15 on the DVD

that's a total of £45 on one film. Now you and I know why they released the Directors Cut. But at the time of purchasing the DVD, there was no mention of a Directors Cut coming. And it's not a given that a directors cut is ever released for a film. So I bought the film not knowing a Directors Cut was coming out.

The industry is rife with "Oh...those nasty pirates are stealing my work....do you mind if I rob these poor bastards over here". I am in no way condoning piracy here...but the industry seems to be reaping what they sow.

Looks like my DVD shelves will be not be as stocked with current releases as it used to be in the past.

Nevermind...I'm sure they will make their money and I have little effect on their industry as an individual.

No need for anyone to comment. If you've got anything valid to add, then feel free...I'm just having a rant

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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/8/2008 1:11:58 PM   
jvgfanatic

 

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There's one kind of "overpriced" DVD I'm happy to pay the cost for and those are Criterion editions of movies that I like. They seem to put out a superior quality product in both remastering and often in extras that count for something. As for Blue Ray, I'm just glad I'm never an early adopter of this crap. I can't afford it and I'm glad that I can't afford it.

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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/8/2008 1:19:12 PM   
JudgeDredd


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I've never heard of Criterion editions.

But that is one thing that annoys me about DVDs...the useless pile off pooh pooh they tag on the end and call extras! Well, in most cases it's a steaming pile of doo doo.

And don't even get me started on the "You cannot fast forward or skip our adverts...we want you to see them...all of them"

I remember one DVD I bought, Braveheart, which forced me to watch the trailers....one of which was a trailer for Braveheart for christs sake!


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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/8/2008 2:00:46 PM   
jvgfanatic

 

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Criteron DVDs don't have ads on them. You put the DVD in the player and the main menu comes up almost instantly. It's so much better than the bargain bin DVDs that don't let you skip the adverts. There are tricks to that, of course, hit stop after the player begins (or even power off if stop is blocked) and then hit the Main Menu or Top Menu button on the remote. This often works to just skip straight to the menu. Anyway, it's not surprising that you've not heard of Criterion if you are looking for bargains, they don't make bargains. I sold a used copy of one of the movies for over $100 once. They often sell for $20-$40.

Another reason you might not have heard of them is that they are exclusively American. I still import titles from time to time but it's a rare treat.

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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/8/2008 2:02:28 PM   
SemperAugustus

 

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Well CD prices are even more ridiculous, question is when high def will be downloadable instead....

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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/8/2008 3:35:29 PM   
jvgfanatic

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

The reason the movie industry particularly grates me so is, as an example, I went to Lord of the Rings III and loved it. I went again and took my daughter. She loved it. I then went to watch it with my brother in law and loved it. I then bought the DVD when it came out...only to discover that I had been robbed, as the Directors Cust was released 3 months later. Now in total, I spent

  • £8 on the cinema for me
  • £14 on the Cinema for me and my daughter
  • £8 on the cinema for me wen I went with the brother in law
  • £15 on the DVD

that's a total of £45 on one film. Now you and I know why they released the Directors Cut. But at the time of purchasing the DVD, there was no mention of a Directors Cut coming. And it's not a given that a directors cut is ever released for a film. So I bought the film not knowing a Directors Cut was coming out.



Okay, I know there's no need to comment on this little rant but I think honestly that you should take a little personal responsibility for this rather than blaming the movie industry. You didn't have to see the move 3 times in a theatre, you chose to. With all the word on the street that much was cut from LotR it was a sure bet that we'd have the extended versions eventually but you chose to buy the movie right away. You could have waited for used 'bargain' copies to surface but instead you bought it at £15. These are all choices you made but you seem to want to blame someone else for them.

I agree that the prices of DVDs and CDs are extreme, the amount of profit made from them is mind boggling, but we do have choices. No company is forcing us to buy any of their crap and those of us that live on a tight budget know just how unnecessary some of this drivel is. I used to spend money hand over fist on media but I never once blamed anyone but myself for this foolishness.

I also have to wonder if it isn't a bit telling that you referred to the third Lord of the Rings movie as "Lord of the Rings III." Nah, I'll definitely not tread there as I can tell this is already a touchy subject for you.

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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/8/2008 3:44:55 PM   
JudgeDredd


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ok


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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/8/2008 4:09:03 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jvgfanatic


I also have to wonder if it isn't a bit telling that you referred to the third Lord of the Rings movie as "Lord of the Rings III." Nah, I'll definitely not tread there as I can tell this is already a touchy subject for you.



He is a LotR "purist" Judge.

As a somewhat less thin skinned LotR purist (have read the Trilogy at LEAST once a year for the past 35 years....) it's pretty easy for me to spot them.

Just take his comments with a grain of salt.

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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/8/2008 6:24:26 PM   
ravinhood


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I get all my movies off the tube, why do you people rush out and buy a dvd or cd retail version? I recently got all three of the Lord of the Rings series they had a weekend showing of it special and it only cost me like a $1 for the TAPE. Yeah I still use VCR ;) I haven't been to a movie house since like 1986 or 85 when Aliens II I believe it was came out. That was the last picture show I ever went to. They just got too expensive when it costs you like $20 for one show (popcorn, drink, candy and getting in). Saving that money and applying it to cable tv gets me lots more picture shows for the value. ;)

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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/8/2008 6:38:56 PM   
Zakhal


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I dont have enough room for dvd movies in my shelf that I watch once or twice at best. Also I dont want to pay for somone to choose what I watch (cable). I havent watched TV for many years.

What I really want is the new streaming onlineservice. You pay few bucks and watch whatever you want whenever you want (movie/series). Naturally they are not allowed yet atleast here for whatever reasons even though the technology exists.


< Message edited by Zakhal -- 1/8/2008 6:47:50 PM >


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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/8/2008 6:48:49 PM   
mjk428

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

ok



:)

Here in The States we were aware that LotR3 was being followed up with an expanded edition. I actually have to give them credit for being upfront about fleecing the diehards in that instance. Otherwise I pretty much agree with your mild rant.

Lately I've seen sales for BD 2 for 1. Amazon had (has?) a sale where they were discounted and 2 for 1. You could get 2 movies for as little as $20 total - that's about five British Pounds nowadays, aint it?

I still didn't buy any because I'm not planning on having a BD library. My DVD library is enormous and they still look great upscaled on my PS3. I may buy the occasional great film but not if I already have it on DVD.

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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/8/2008 9:52:07 PM   
David Winter

 

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quote:

But at the time of purchasing the DVD, there was no mention of a Directors Cut coming.


Actually, in the case of LOTR, there was plenty of notice that extended editions were on their way when the theatre version of the movie was out on DVD. Jackson said many times he'd planned on having extended versions of all the movies so that he could get in the scenes that he'd filmed (and some were filmed specifically for the ExDVD). Especially with The Two Towers and Return of the King, that saw major areas of the story left out due to the need to fit the film into something theatres could show.

At anyrate, The Harry Potter movies on both HDDVD and BD are anywhere from $21 to $28. That's about what I'd expect to pay for a single, non extended version of the film that was in theatres. I fully expect to pay at least $150 for the extended (meaning the only version that should ever have been released) versions of LOTR on BD (and yes I have them on SDDVD too).

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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/8/2008 11:19:59 PM   
Zap


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I get a kick out of you RH You have'nt been to see a movie since 1986. Thats well... amazing.

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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/8/2008 11:29:54 PM   
Doggie


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So not only do you pay a sovereign for a DVD in the UK, they force you to watch ads? You are PWNT! How many MPs did the entertainment industry lobbyists have to bribe to pull that off?

Here's how to fight back - don't buy over priced crap. It's just that simple.

Well, not really, as they sell their overpriced crap to cable and satellite networks in packages, so you're going to pay for tripe like Redacted and other commie pieces of crap that nobody will pay to watch so you can see the few decent movies that are work a look.

But you can make it harder on them. Don't just bend over and hand your money to an oligarchy of elitists who think they're entitled to live like Sultans because their daddy was a rock star who sang about how material things didn't mean anything to him.

Don't buy their DVDs. Let them rust on the shelves. If you must buy them, get them from second hand shops before they outlaw them too. File share your ass off. They can't sue all of you. Believe me, you can live without your MP-3 or portable DVD player. Go outside. There's a whole world out there. Try living your own life while you're still young enough to enjoy it instead of sitting in front of Big Brother's propaganda distributor and wishing you could poke Mary Kate and Ashley. There are real girls out there; go get one. They won't bite. Well, maybe they do, but it feels good when they do it.

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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/8/2008 11:35:54 PM   
David Winter

 

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quote:

So not only do you pay a sovereign for a DVD in the UK, they force you to watch ads? You are PWNT! How many MPs did the entertainment industry lobbyists have to bribe to pull that off?


They do that in Canada too. Now they're not Coke or Nissan ads, but ads for other movies and new releases. You can't skip past them. You have to watch them. Now if it's a $2.00 rental DVD I can sort of live with it. What burns my @$$ is that it's on the disk I purchased too. If I pay $35 for a DVD, I don't want advertising on it, and I certainly don't want advertising I can't skip past.

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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/8/2008 11:39:46 PM   
Doggie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

I get a kick out of you RH You have'nt been to see a movie since 1986. Thats well... amazing.


Me, neither. I aint springing for thirty bucks for Nicholas Cage and a bucket of popcorn.

Went to my last rock concert in 1980. It was over a hundred degrees and they shut off the water fountains to force you to buy concession drinks at outrageous prices. That was the last straw.

In 1973, I could go to see the world's most popular bands for less than five bucks. You could bring anything you wanted in with you. Nobody even thought of confiscating your camera. If you wanted to make a crappy cassette recording, you could knock yourself out. But hardly anyone did that because you could buy a professionally recorded album for a couple of bucks, and it came with extras like cover art and a liner with all the lyrics and some commentary from the band members.

Now they sell you a DVD that costs them six cents to produce for fifty bucks. And you buy it.


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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/8/2008 11:47:10 PM   
Doggie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Winter

quote:

So not only do you pay a sovereign for a DVD in the UK, they force you to watch ads? You are PWNT! How many MPs did the entertainment industry lobbyists have to bribe to pull that off?


They do that in Canada too.


I guess lawyers are working on that in the U.S. I get my DVDs from Netflix, but you can fast forward through the ads if you want to. You can even skip them entirely if you open the file from the menu.

The "extras" are usually garbage. You get an alternate sound track with all the producers telling you how brilliant they are, and how everyoine else involved is a genuis, too, and how lucky you are that these gifts from God slave away for eight weeks out of the year for a few paltry millions to bring you the fruit of their imaginations.


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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/9/2008 1:15:06 AM   
Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

I get a kick out of you RH You have'nt been to see a movie since 1986. Thats well... amazing.



What do you expect from someone that is driving his auto with 100K on the tires and brakes


PS/edit:
I heard RH invented copper wire fighting over a penny

< Message edited by Sarge -- 1/9/2008 1:16:22 AM >


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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/9/2008 1:21:27 AM   
David Winter

 

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quote:

The "extras" are usually garbage. You get an alternate sound track with all the producers telling you how brilliant they are, and how everyoine else involved is a genuis, too, and how lucky you are that these gifts from God slave away for eight weeks out of the year for a few paltry millions to bring you the fruit of their imaginations.


hmmm.. the 12 hours (combined) of "extras" on the LOTR DVD's are amazing. The extra's on the Harry Potter HDDVD's are very well done too.

And these films are hardly "8 weeks". LOTR was 15 months of principle photography, with another 12 months of post production, followed by another 3 months of reshoots and pickups. That was for the theatre release. Another month of additional work was done for the extended DVD's. It can take 8 weeks to do the production of a single scene.

The typical Harry Potter movie takes about 14 months of principle photography and post production.

The era of "weeks" worth of shooting to produce a 'B' movie is long, long gone.


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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/9/2008 1:22:40 AM   
lancerunolfsson

 

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I only buy DVDs When it is a movie I just know will not be available for rent. Or there is a good deal on something that I might watch again in the Bargain bin. Or last it is an HBO series like Sopranos that I will be irritated by having to wait to rent all the episodes sequentially. Except for the series I don't think I have ever paid more then 25usd for a DVD including shipping and I rarely pay more than 12usd. There are a number of obscure movies that I would like to have but they are just too spendy (over 25usd) for something I am only going to watch 1 or at most 2 times. So I'm thinking most of the problems with price come from living in the UK and lack of economic discipline. OTH they don't let you die untreated for cancer in the UK. So I guess you just have to figure on what's more more important to you;^)

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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/9/2008 2:00:34 AM   
Doggie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lancerunolfsson

OTH they don't let you die untreated for cancer in the UK.


Really?

I got to admit, refusing to allow anyone who isn't in perfect health to participate in a Health Care System is an absolutely brilliant solution to cutting costs.

But what has this to do with the price of DVDs? So Sir Paul is funding the NHS? Sorry, he's moved to the United States along with everyone else who can afford it to escape draconian U.K. taxes.

Seems all the musicians to whom material things don't mean anything would rather keep their stash than use it for the betterment of mankind. Who could have seen that coming?


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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/9/2008 2:36:21 AM   
Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie


quote:

ORIGINAL: lancerunolfsson

OTH they don't let you die untreated for cancer in the UK.


Really?

I got to admit, refusing to allow anyone who isn't in perfect health to participate in a Health Care System is an absolutely brilliant solution to cutting costs.

But what has this to do with the price of DVDs? So Sir Paul is funding the NHS? Sorry, he's moved to the United States along with everyone else who can afford it to escape draconian U.K. taxes.

Seems all the musicians to whom material things don't mean anything would rather keep their stash than use it for the betterment of mankind. Who could have seen that coming?




What ?

You don’t see the correlation between Americans and their heath care system and DVD’s prices.

You just a racist Doggie


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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/9/2008 2:58:15 AM   
ravinhood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

I get a kick out of you RH You have'nt been to see a movie since 1986. Thats well... amazing.


Nope sure haven't .....aren't I just the most unique person you ever met? ;)

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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/9/2008 3:02:29 AM   
ravinhood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

I get a kick out of you RH You have'nt been to see a movie since 1986. Thats well... amazing.



What do you expect from someone that is driving his auto with 100K on the tires and brakes


PS/edit:
I heard RH invented copper wire fighting over a penny



Lemme ask you something Sarge did you get to retire at 45? Hrmmm? ;) I didn't get where I am today throwing money into the wind. Plus I don't have to wait till I'm old and gray and can't walk to start enjoying retirement. So whine all you want to about my 100k tires and brakes and my not going to a theater movie since 1986 all you want to. It won't change my habits or way of life one iota. ;)

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 1/9/2008 3:05:52 AM >

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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/9/2008 3:07:14 AM   
EUBanana


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Copyright, at least in its present form, is such crap, it really is.  They didn't have copyright in the Renaissance you know - its actually a pretty recent invention.  It apparently didn't stop the Renaissance, either, though you would be given to assume that all musicians and playwrights and authors or whatever would promptly stop working if copyright ceased to exist.  (The crap ones probably would have to).

Then you have all the ridiculous lawsuits and patents that Slashdot posts up every so often.  Boo, hiss.  I think the length of copyright is massively over the top.  Granted with digital goods you'd need some copyright to actually turn a profit with things like software but I think 5 years would be fair enough.  5 year old software is practically prehistoric anyway, though you wouldn't think so given the people who get sued for playing ancient 80s arcade games on emulators, even though they aren't worth pennies nowadays.


...as for the NHS, my old man had prostate cancer, as he was in his 80s he was bottom of the list, low priority.  They didnt' care about him.  He had to go private, to avoid the 2 year waiting list.  Speaking for myself I was in hospital a while back with gallstones (fun fun) and while I got sped through the ward fast enough - even though my case wasn't at all serious - there was some old boys on there who had been waiting for weeks.  I remember having an interesting chat to one who was in the 14th army in Burma in fact.  :D  Still, the theme that shines through for me is that if you're old, you're not gonna work anymore, you're not gonna have all that many years left even with successful treatment, then you're a writeoff, the NHS doesn't have the cash or time to waste on old duffers who are going to kick the bucket in five years anyway. 

Charming.


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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/9/2008 3:33:01 AM   
Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge
PS/edit:
I heard RH invented copper wire fighting over a penny


quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Lemme ask you something Sarge did you get to retire at 45? Hrmmm? ;) I didn't get where I am today throwing money into the wind. Plus I don't have to wait till I'm old and gray and can't walk to start enjoying retirement. So whine all you want to about my 100k tires and brakes and my not going to a theater movie since 1986 all you want to. It won't change my habits or way of life one iota. ;)



Not 45 yet

But since we are on the subject , why in the world do you continue to brag on how cheap you are but take offence when your called on it ?



PS: public aid doesn’t count as retirement

< Message edited by Sarge -- 1/9/2008 3:35:11 AM >


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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/9/2008 6:26:29 AM   
105mm Howitzer


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I only watch porn on DVD and....wait, did I just say that out loud? My bad, just forget you saw that.
Seriously, I get my DVD's once a year and that's mostly the documentaries that come out by series. But there's nothing wrong with a little rant and rave Judge

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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/9/2008 10:34:50 AM   
JudgeDredd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 105mm Howitzer

I only watch porn on DVD and....wait, did I just say that out loud? My bad, just forget you saw that.

lol......Sometimes, though, honesty isn't the best policy!!!

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RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/9/2008 11:11:42 AM   
Charles_22


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

I get all my movies off the tube, why do you people rush out and buy a dvd or cd retail version? I recently got all three of the Lord of the Rings series they had a weekend showing of it special and it only cost me like a $1 for the TAPE. Yeah I still use VCR ;) I haven't been to a movie house since like 1986 or 85 when Aliens II I believe it was came out. That was the last picture show I ever went to. They just got too expensive when it costs you like $20 for one show (popcorn, drink, candy and getting in). Saving that money and applying it to cable tv gets me lots more picture shows for the value. ;)


I have a clue for you rh. I have a dvd player on my computer, and it's a good thing I do too, because often the cd player doesn't work with various programs (Civ etc). I was all against dvd's because the VCR was superior in my estimates. I mean you couldn't record on dvd's for a start, but when it was on my computer that all changed. The one outstanding quality about dvd, other than the more obvious ones, such as somewhat better resolution (plus you can't play vcr tapes on computers), is the very department of bargains and space. Take for example a dvd sword and sandal collection I bought. It has 50 movies on it. The cost was either $20 or $30. Can you beat that? I had always liked S&S as a kid, and the old S&S is the best, and here I get to watch slews of them I never saw, able to save photos or clips of it to my computer and am able to play them at work if I so choose, and it takes up the space of a small book (12 dvd's I think). You would NEVER get such a deal with tapes even if you do have overwhelming space, to say nothing of anybody willing to package those movies together even in the heyday of vcr's. Now I'm no fool in regards to vcr's, because they still have that recording aspect that most dvd's today do not have (neither dvd player I have does that), so I have at least a couple vcr's. Even if I don't want to buy any more vcr tapes for movies, they're at least still useable for recording and playing back my once blank tapes.

Give you more examples of dvd deals. I got a Ozzie and Harriet set that had 100 episodes and costed I think $20. Actually I didn't think I liked O&H before I bought that, as seeing them well over 20 years ago in just bit pieces didn't impress me. I then found out that they had been running for 14 years. I figured if they ran that long they couldn't be too bad. Turns out I was right. Now every dvd deal isn't that cheap, but it opens up all sorts of multi-episode or multi-movie deals you will never see elsewhere. I got like 134 episodes of Get Smart for I think $190. The one takes up more space than my O&H set, but though it's somewhat expensive, it's a a top notch job on a show I would otherwise never see again. I got all the episodes of Droopy (17 IIRC) on one dvd, for like $18.

I wouldn't say that necessarily that dvd's have a lot of unnecessary junk on them. My S&S collection has no frills at all. The O&H set has commercials thrown in for the most part, but since they're commercials largely from the 50's before in-your-face commercials was the common lot; it's often rather pleasant to see them. I was especially pleased to see a young Pamela Britton (Lora Lei from My Favoite Martian) pushing Sylvania camera bulbs on one of them.

I also got the entire first season of The Outer Limits for either $20-$30 (though two of the episodes were unwatchable due to poor workmanship).

You might be more prone to have bad workmanship with dvd's than with vcr tapes, but I would had never thought of buying any of the sets I have, or could have, had it not been for the combination of them being so compact and also considerably more cost effective than tapes. I think the two Outer Limit episodes are the first portion of a dvd I have had that were bad.



(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 29
RE: Overpriced DVDs? - 1/9/2008 12:50:06 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge
PS/edit:
I heard RH invented copper wire fighting over a penny


quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Lemme ask you something Sarge did you get to retire at 45? Hrmmm? ;) I didn't get where I am today throwing money into the wind. Plus I don't have to wait till I'm old and gray and can't walk to start enjoying retirement. So whine all you want to about my 100k tires and brakes and my not going to a theater movie since 1986 all you want to. It won't change my habits or way of life one iota. ;)



Not 45 yet

But since we are on the subject , why in the world do you continue to brag on how cheap you are but take offence when your called on it ?



PS: public aid doesn’t count as retirement


Who said I took "offense" I was just calling you on your attitude that is high and mighty and think everyone should have to upgrade their cars and lifestyle according you you DORFman hahaha. ;) I highly doubt you will be able to retire at 45 due to your attitude and spending philosophy. You probably do the ole oil change every 3000 miles, replace tires and batteries and brakes every 4 years, goto the movies once a week and out to dinner with the family (if you even have a family gawd knows what woman would want to marry you haha and I'm sure your kids would hate you in secret and talk about you behind your back lol). Spend exhorbatant amounts of money on computer games you never finish or play very long.

Also there is a difference in being CHeAP and being resourceful. I am just resourceful. People that smoke other peoples butts are cheap. haha People that live on the streets and eat out of garbage cans are cheap. ;)

And while we are on the subject of taking offense, why do you take offense when I rebuttal your stupidity? ;)

(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 30
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