el cid again
ORIGINAL: el cid again
ORIGINAL: el cid again
Yes, you are right! Maybe they might lend some more ships to the Brits but declare war themselves because of that? Surly not automatically!
REPLY: Pretty automatically. Aside from most games have but one opponent (computer or human) - IRL the "players" had deals - and "we all fight if any is attacked" was one of them. NEI, Aus, NZ, US and UK were all in on it.
I don't know about the pretty automatically statement.
REPLY: I am privy to some special agreements by commanders in the Far East - and also political deal attempted or made by French Indochina local government and NEI local government. The US turned down the French, but agreed to some of NEI requests. After that, far east commanders did make operational agreements - and NEI sent air and naval units to Malaya - or just offshore.
Japn could go after UK territory in it's own backyard thinking the UK wouldn't be able to do much about it while engaged with Germany.
REPLY: Well - yes - and what it could do we know because of what it did do. My problems is that I cannot trigger reinforcements by events in a game - I must hard set the date. So I need to guess when the war might heat up?
UK and Germany are going at it hammer & tongs in 1941. The US is supplying materials to the UK under the guise of "loans" if I remember right. Local politics for the US was, at the time, arguing on wether to jump in to war or not. I think if Hitler and Germany didn't bring us in on the side of the UK then the loss of UK territories in Malaya, China, and the DEI would probably not have phased the US. WW I was still heavy on the minds of US citizens...
REPLY: Actually, in the Far East more was happening under local terms. When the war began IRL Adm "Tom Thumb" of RN was in Manila, confirring with Adm Hart - and just a few days before that the RN signals intercept post at Singapore had forwarded the data "all Japanese merchant vessels will be in home waters by 8 December Tokyo time" - in spite of specific orders from PM Churchill NOT to inform the Americans. Dutch ships were already in British waters, as were NEIAF squadrons - partially in the hope of deterring the Japanese by showing some solidarity - otherwise for operational utility. Hart had secret orders to go to war - to create an incident - and he may have so advised his RN counterpart. [He was commissioning three vessels for the purpose - one was already back from her first attempt - but she failed to get any Japanese to shoot at her - this being USS Isabel - a former Presidential yacht - and a small WWI era naval vessel. The second just missed a chance to try - because war came sooner than expected - this being USS Lanokai - whose capt - one Lt Vince Trolly - wrote about it in USNI's Cruise of the Lanokai]
Of course we are talking what-if politics here. I can see the US Senate and House of Reps looking @ the UK in the thick of it against both Germany and Japan (saying Japan attacks UK interests like Hong Kong and Singapore) and waffling big-time over jumping into a 2nd world war with two very large fronts (Pacific/Europe). FDR, I believe, would have tried to find a way to have the US stand beside the UK. If FDR couldn't have manufactured a way to help the UK (and as long as Japan and Germany don't actively attack US interests) within the 1st 6 months of 1942, then the V1 bomb might have been the threat needed for the US to jump in...
REPLY: The US military had operated on the assumption of war in the spring, 1942 - and most plans allowed that long for units to work up - weapons to be delivered. Many of these plans were overtaken by events. But in November, FDR privately seems to have decided not to wait - and he kept very close council on the matter. He wanted Japan to take the heat - you can see this in an order to Kimmel and Short "Japan must take the first overt act" in this period. He appears not to have told MacArthur. Mac and Hart (both living in the Manila Hotel) never dined together - hated each other - and almost never cooperated with each other (like the divided command in Alaska - the Army and Navy were as bad as most Japanese in this respect). So I think Mac was taken by surprise. In contrast, Asiatic Fleet was not cought, but was dispersed, or even partly assembled at Balikpapan - far to the South of where first day risks would exist.
I just remember my grampa and grandma talking about that time frame and what was going on in everyday life. The winter of 1941 was really bad (according to my grandparents). Local Radio spent more time talking about local stuff then what was going on in Europe. My Grampa's brother joined the army when he lost his farm (late 30s). My Grampa's brother George said army life sucked. The Army officers apparently thought they might have to go to Europe but the Government wasn't willing to cut loose money for better equipment (my grandpa said it was all about tanks and artillery). I think the US Army was still thinking along the lines of trench warfare in Europe. The earlier rapid attacks in Europe by German armor scared the crap out of the US Army (again these are all old conversations I'm remembering as a child in the mid/late 60s).
< Message edited by el cid again -- 12/24/2007 10:37:44 AM >