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RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 1:07:58 PM   
VSWG


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We need a new Economy FlowChart...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

There is a new "Light Industry" device. This device takes resource points as input and generates supply points as output. Because of this, manpower points no longer require Resource points as input, and HI no longer generate supply either - it is only generated by LI, and Refineries (representing fuel used by land units and aircraft).

Also - Resource centres no longer generate supply points. You have to take the resources to the LI centres to create supply points.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

I will try to provide some more details later but the basics are:

Refineries take oil as input and create fuel as well as some supplies.

Light Industry take Resources as input and generate supplies.

Andrew

What about Heavy Industry centers? Do they create only HI points in AE?

< Message edited by VSWG -- 12/8/2007 1:11:11 PM >


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Post #: 31
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 1:15:27 PM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

2. Will the map include Subchaser-style "dots" to indicate the presence of oil or resources in a hex? This isn't a "must" for me, and in fact if it's too cluttered, I'd prefer a cleaner look. But I did like Subchaser's little dots.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
Not at present. Some people don't like any more map clutter, and also, resource data is scenario dependent, so fixing the symbols on the map could cause problems for modders.

I like the idea of some type of symbols myself, so what I am currently considering is providing an alternative map, with symbols added.


How about a switch on the options menu to turn these on or off?

Bill

_____________________________

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Post #: 32
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 1:18:11 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Andrew, since resource and oil hexes no longer produce supplies and fuel, where do they come from? I read that there will be refineries, but what else?


I will try to provide some more details later but the basics are:

Refineries take oil as input and create fuel as well as some supplies.

Light Industry take Resources as input and generate supplies.

Andrew


It's good you're modelling refineries as producing both fuel and supply. A major reason Japan took northern China were the coal reserves. Those were used to produce energy (power and heat), coking coal (steel-making), and toluene. Toluene is used in TNT (ammo) and high-octane gasolene (aviation fuel). So you need to allow some production of supplies from the Chinese coal. I think you'll be doing that. Oh, there were also small oilfields in Japan--my GGF developed them--so there is some indigenous fuel production.

_____________________________

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"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 33
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 1:21:21 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

Will "Fuel" still be available at some "oil" locatrions, those that could historicaly produce crude oil so pure it could be burned in ship's without refining?


The easiest way to handle that is put a limited capacity refinery in the oil field hex.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Brady)
Post #: 34
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 1:50:05 PM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
Can player in WitP-AE "command" the amount of supplies and fuel in his bases without fearing that AI would move it around (using internal transportation grid) on its own whim?



To be honest I am not sure. If I find out before you do I will let you know.

Andrew



Just looked. The bases have buttons that can be used to increase or decrease the amount of supplies required at that base.

Andrew

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 35
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 1:51:06 PM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG
What about Heavy Industry centers? Do they create only HI points in AE?


That's right.

EDIT: HI centres will also produce supply points - one per HI centre - but NOT fuel points.

< Message edited by Andrew Brown -- 12/31/2007 1:10:32 PM >

(in reply to VSWG)
Post #: 36
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 1:51:48 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

We need a new Economy FlowChart...


You mean the replacement for this one I re-did years ago?


Leo "Apollo11"




Attachment (1)

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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Post #: 37
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 1:53:43 PM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

quote:

2. Will the map include Subchaser-style "dots" to indicate the presence of oil or resources in a hex? This isn't a "must" for me, and in fact if it's too cluttered, I'd prefer a cleaner look. But I did like Subchaser's little dots.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
Not at present. Some people don't like any more map clutter, and also, resource data is scenario dependent, so fixing the symbols on the map could cause problems for modders.

I like the idea of some type of symbols myself, so what I am currently considering is providing an alternative map, with symbols added.


How about a switch on the options menu to turn these on or off?

Bill


This isn't on the list at the moment. It will be interesting to see whether most people want some sort of symbol, or not.

Andrew

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 38
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 1:53:59 PM   
Mifune


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"PS: Off to put up the Xmas tree..." Well with some luck there will be a gift of 2 Japanese icons under that X-mas tree.

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Post #: 39
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 1:57:13 PM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

It's good you're modelling refineries as producing both fuel and supply. A major reason Japan took northern China were the coal reserves. Those were used to produce energy (power and heat), coking coal (steel-making), and toluene. Toluene is used in TNT (ammo) and high-octane gasolene (aviation fuel). So you need to allow some production of supplies from the Chinese coal. I think you'll be doing that. Oh, there were also small oilfields in Japan--my GGF developed them--so there is some indigenous fuel production.


I actually consider coal to be a "Resource". So, for example, in Manchukuo there are Resources, plus HI (generating HI points) and LI (taking Resources and generating supply points), plus a little oil.

Andrew

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 40
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 3:20:43 PM   
el cid again

 

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Manchukuo produced oil in two entirely different senses: as such in classical oilfields and also shale oil processing from a different kind of deposits. This latter began remarkably well - but due to technical issues - once production reached a moderate level - it could not increase any more. The regular fields also were not able to be increased a great deal - but they did produce in millions of bbls instead of hundreds of thousands - so they actually mattered more. There was domestic oil production in Japan proper and also on Sahkalin island - and on both sides of the border on Sakhalin. Again, these were not large producers - but they matter - in particular if there is a shortage of stocks or imports from more distant points. China also was an oil producer - and three of the ships in RHS are relatively famous Standard Oil Company river tankers (one of which was involved in the Panay incident directly, and all of which were involved indirectly in the form of concerns for their safety). China had oil fields so far from the coast the river was used to move their product. I have the details somewhere if they are required.

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Post #: 41
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 3:46:37 PM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Manchukuo produced oil in two entirely different senses: as such in classical oilfields and also shale oil processing from a different kind of deposits. This latter began remarkably well - but due to technical issues - once production reached a moderate level - it could not increase any more. The regular fields also were not able to be increased a great deal - but they did produce in millions of bbls instead of hundreds of thousands - so they actually mattered more. There was domestic oil production in Japan proper and also on Sahkalin island - and on both sides of the border on Sakhalin. Again, these were not large producers - but they matter - in particular if there is a shortage of stocks or imports from more distant points. China also was an oil producer - and three of the ships in RHS are relatively famous Standard Oil Company river tankers (one of which was involved in the Panay incident directly, and all of which were involved indirectly in the form of concerns for their safety). China had oil fields so far from the coast the river was used to move their product. I have the details somewhere if they are required.


I do have some oil in those places, and I took into account the shale oil production in Manchukuo and the synthetic oil in Japan, but I am always interested in information you or anyone may have.

Andrew

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Post #: 42
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 4:04:07 PM   
Captain Cruft


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Hi Andrew,

Awesome map by the looks of it. How long it must have taken to draw doesn't bear thinking about ... :)

First question: Are the malaria and cold zones still hard-wired or is this now stored in the PWHEX file?


< Message edited by Captain Cruft -- 12/8/2007 4:05:21 PM >

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 43
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 4:09:52 PM   
Captain Cruft


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Second question :)

Joe said in the General thread that the overall area covered had increased a bit. I realise a screenshot of the whole map would be too much to ask but can you say where are the corners are now? Also what are the overall dimensions?

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Post #: 44
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 4:15:19 PM   
Captain Cruft


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Crufty goes into blather mode ;)

I just noticed. In Burma there appear to be hexes which contain both rail and road. At least that is the graphical representation. So I would guess that the new PWHEX format allows multiple "paths" per hex-side. If so great!

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Post #: 45
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 4:21:17 PM   
Captain Cruft


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Blathering continues ...

I see there are two new production symbols at Rangoon. Wonder what they are ... :)




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 46
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 4:42:50 PM   
dwbradley

 

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Given the background of many members of the team I feel certain you are very attuned to leaving as much opportunity for modding as possible. My sense of where this project is now is that the really major changes have already been made (or are in progress) but that you might be able to put in minor changes if they had merit. So I would hope to propose stuff that wouldn’t require much more work for you right now but that might leave the door open for improvements later on.

Here’s one I hope isn’t too fantastical:

PWHEX/Map panel as an array. What I have in mind is that there would be multiple PWHEX and associated map files, with the current one being selected by date. So if there were a monthly change in the PWHEX/maps you would need an array of something like 60 of these. Considering the work required to produce even one set, the idea of producing 60 may seem ridiculous but the current Matrix team would only have to produce a single set and then replicate it to fill the array for the initial release.

If I understand the power of the PWHEX/map combination at all ( not certain for sure) then this would seem to leave open the possibility of changing individual elements in the array to account for seasonal changes, construction, etc.

To AB and all of the Matrix team, I say many, many thanks for all of your work.

Dave Bradley

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Post #: 47
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 5:08:12 PM   
Chad Harrison


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All looks great AB!

Malaria questions:

I originally posted this in the land FAQ and Andy suggested I bug you about it.

The current system of malaria zones and morale degregation does not feel right. I like the system as far as disablements are concerned, but once a base in a Malaria zone has been completely built out and is sizeable, it makes no sense that base units there out of combat would have morale loss over time. For instance, take Port Moresby. In my PBEM game I still have the Australia Command troops that started the game there and some American base forces added in mid 1942 (its now mid 1943), and the base is all built out. All the troops there have very few disablements (makes sense) but their morale is all under 15.

That doesnt feel right. They are not in combat, so they would be 'in base' not out in the jungle. By the time that Port Moresby was all built out, I would imagine that it was a nice place to be 'in base' and would not harshly affect the troops morale stationed there.

What I suggest, is that once a base is big enough that morale loss should atleast stop. It doesnt have to gain, but it should atleast stop. I mean come on, if a base is big enough to store unlimited supplies without spoilage (combined port and airfield over 10), you can not tell me that the troops stationed there are in bad conditions that is affecting their morale more than say being on a primitive island in the middle of the Pacific.

Just some thoughts. Thank AB.

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Post #: 48
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 6:58:09 PM   
Sonny II

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Blathering continues ...

I see there are two new production symbols at Rangoon. Wonder what they are ... :)





Light Industry & Refinery?


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Post #: 49
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 7:51:59 PM   
VSWG


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BigJ62 mentioned a "replacement delay" for LCUs in the Land Thread. Can someone elaborate? Does it mean that some LCUs won't receive replacements for a while?

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Post #: 50
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 8:27:13 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
Can player in WitP-AE "command" the amount of supplies and fuel in his bases without fearing that AI would move it around (using internal transportation grid) on its own whim?



To be honest I am not sure. If I find out before you do I will let you know.

Andrew



Just looked. The bases have buttons that can be used to increase or decrease the amount of supplies required at that base.

Andrew


Thanks Andrew!

BTW, the "WSVG" just pointed me to Any Mac's post on Page1 of "Land Thread for WitP-AE":

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Supply movement is going to be better than stock but will still have some limits.

You will be able to increase for each base the required supply level up to the bases requirement + 0 - 25,000 supplies

Thus bases will try to draw excess supplies and store them - small bases still have large wastage numbers so universal use of this tool has real consequences and will quickly drain supplies.

But in prinicpal yes you can have more control about setting supply levels at internal bases without needing a command HQ there to draw the extra supply.

i.e. Mandalay has a requirement for 10,000 supply points I know I am going to lose Rangoon soon so I increase the supply draw of Mandalay to 35,000 supply and the computer will try to fill up to 35,000 supply at Mandalay.

Andy


BTW, I did see the small knob showing ">" near the "Required Supply" on a screenshoot of base for upcoming WitP-AE!


GREAT stuff - thanks guys!!!


Leo "Apollo11"

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A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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Post #: 51
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 8:44:15 PM   
pad152

 

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Recon

There are several hexes on the map that can't be reconned! (example Bataan (allied), Japan can send a 100 flights only to get there are 34 units there).

Island/Base
You can send a ton of recon flights only to get there is 1 base force there, yet when you invade you find two divsions!


I don't know if there are map issues or something wrong with air recon.


(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 52
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 9:12:00 PM   
pad152

 

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Production

1. Control - please put the player in control of aircraft production, so if the Japanese player wants to build older aircraft the computer won't over ride the players changes. (Either the player is in charge or the AI, not both). Maybe a toggle switch in the game options where the AI won't change production.

2. Aircraft Production Screen that shows all of the locations factory aircraft type and factory status (on/off) and required resources (supplies Heavy Industry, Oil, etc.). It's a real pain to find that factory you turned off!

3. Engine Production Screen that shows the name location factory engine type and factory status (on/off) and required resources

4. Balance Sheet - It's really hard to tell if you are plus or minus when is comes to oil, supply resources, etc. the game needs an account type balance sheet. I'm not sure the totals current in intel screen are correct once you start turning off factories.






< Message edited by pad152 -- 12/8/2007 10:45:58 PM >

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Post #: 53
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 9:18:57 PM   
pad152

 

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Ships production and respawn

Japan should always been able to build (MTB's (motor Torpedo boats/ PT boats) Midget Subs, MSWs, barges) if they still have production, these are the ship types that should respawn (60-80 MTB's, 60+ Midgets sub, 20-30 MSWs, 60-100 barges). Japan having only 4 or 5 MTB's is a joke!

Maybe MTBs/PT/s should be handled like Midgets!

Maybe a flag in the editor to tell which ship types should re-spawn.



< Message edited by pad152 -- 12/8/2007 10:26:43 PM >

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Post #: 54
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 10:41:01 PM   
Captain Cruft


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New Question

Japanese aircraft engine production.

Is the bug where you don't see the pool going down likely to be fixed?

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Post #: 55
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 10:45:10 PM   
Nomad


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While we are at it, how about a text file that details what every factory built that turn( or didn't )?

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Post #: 56
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 11:03:28 PM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Hi Andrew,

Awesome map by the looks of it. How long it must have taken to draw doesn't bear thinking about ... :)


Indeed...

quote:

First question: Are the malaria and cold zones still hard-wired or is this now stored in the PWHEX file?



They are no longer hard wired - they are defined in the pwhex file as you say.

Andrew

(in reply to Captain Cruft)
Post #: 57
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 11:04:41 PM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Second question :)

Joe said in the General thread that the overall area covered had increased a bit. I realise a screenshot of the whole map would be too much to ask but can you say where are the corners are now? Also what are the overall dimensions?



The increase is in the width of the Indian Ocean - more of it is on the map now. I always thought that the Indian Ocean on the current map was too narrow. The other boundaries are the same, pretty much.

Andrew

< Message edited by Andrew Brown -- 12/8/2007 11:06:32 PM >

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Post #: 58
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 11:06:33 PM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Crufty goes into blather mode ;)

I just noticed. In Burma there appear to be hexes which contain both rail and road. At least that is the graphical representation. So I would guess that the new PWHEX format allows multiple "paths" per hex-side. If so great!



You have sharp eyes Captain Cruft! Yes, road and rail paths are separate now.

Andrew

(in reply to Captain Cruft)
Post #: 59
RE: Admiral's Edition Map Thread - 12/8/2007 11:06:35 PM   
Captain Cruft


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Second question :)

Joe said in the General thread that the overall area covered had increased a bit. I realise a screenshot of the whole map would be too much to ask but can you say where are the corners are now? Also what are the overall dimensions?



The increase is in the width of the Indian Ocean - more of it is on the map now. I always thought that the Indian Ocean on the current map was too narrow. The other boundaries are the same, pretty much.

Andrew


Great. So presumably Addu Atoll is now in the right place?

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 60
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