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Will This Run on 64-bit OSs?

 
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Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/26/2007 10:41:06 PM   
hammersinger

 

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My main machine is a dual-core 64-bit running WinXP 64. Will this game run in this environment?
I have had to abandon several games that do not make the 64-bit cut. I am not interested in multibooting or Win Vista.
best, hammersinger
Post #: 1
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/26/2007 11:04:06 PM   
Kaeller

 

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It'll be good to hear some official word about it.

But I'm betting it will, only programs old enough to use 16bit binaries don't run at all on XP 64, unless you use some emulator (DOSBox for example for real old games).

Of course the installer can make things a bit complicated, I've found installers that are told to only accept windows XP/98/95, or, worse yet, use 16 bit code, those are troublesome, but you normally can copy the install directory from a x86 windows machine and it'll work.

(in reply to hammersinger)
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RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/26/2007 11:36:57 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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None of our titles officially support XP 64-bit, as we don't have an installation to develop or test with. However, most of our games to my knowledge work fine with it. Caveat emptor.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Kaeller)
Post #: 3
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/27/2007 1:00:19 AM   
hammersinger

 

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I assume the Matrix Games and related programming houses are aware that 64-bit CPUs are being sold and 32-bit are leaving the planet?* In fact I recently had a board burn out in one of my business machines, which are all Socket-A. I had a hard time finding a newly manufactured Socket-A board.** The only place 32-bit AMD CPUs seem to be available now are from eBay vendors.
Restricting your game development to the 32-bit world would seem to be business suicide at this point. Caveat emptor indeed! You would be smart to port these to 64-bit Ubuntu or some other up and coming free linux distro. Those are designed to multiboot easily as they usually share space with Windows. I only keep Windows for games and my accounting software. There is no other reason for it in my world.

* I believe the famous green wind-up $100 laptop will continue using 32-bit chips from AMD. That audience will not be buying games from Matrix. Too expensive. I support the $100 laptop personally to introduce computing into the poorest corners of the earth. Noble idea.

**ie: A new board I thought might be worth buying.
best, hammersinger

(in reply to hammersinger)
Post #: 4
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/27/2007 1:52:45 AM   
sabre100

 

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Most apps will run in 32-bit mode on a 64-bit OS so it should be ok.  However there are few true 64-bit apps out there to take advantage of a 64-bit OS, including drivers.  64-Bit OS is pretty useless IMO at this point until more vendors actually program and develop true 64-bit apps

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Post #: 5
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/27/2007 2:00:51 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Hammersinger,

quote:

ORIGINAL: hammersinger
I assume the Matrix Games and related programming houses are aware that 64-bit CPUs are being sold and 32-bit are leaving the planet?* In fact I recently had a board burn out in one of my business machines, which are all Socket-A. I had a hard time finding a newly manufactured Socket-A board.** The only place 32-bit AMD CPUs seem to be available now are from eBay vendors.


Indeed - we do have some 64-bit CPUs and we do have a test installation of Vista 64-bit, but we do not have an installation of XP 64-bit at this time. As far as I know, none of our developers currently have 64-bit OSes installed for development testing either. The vast majority of people are using their 64-bit CPUs with 32-bit operating systems at present though.

quote:

Restricting your game development to the 32-bit world would seem to be business suicide at this point. Caveat emptor indeed! You would be smart to port these to 64-bit Ubuntu or some other up and coming free linux distro. Those are designed to multiboot easily as they usually share space with Windows. I only keep Windows for games and my accounting software. There is no other reason for it in my world.


In fact, we're just going with what the vast majority of our market seems to run. 64-bit OSes are historically less supported by a variety of software and hardware vendors. The additional support cost of developing and testing for those has, in the past, been unjustifiable for us. With 64-bit Vista, that may change in the future, but not the immediate future.

The thing is, right now users who are running 64-bit OSes simply need to be more educated about the possible incompatibilities they might encounter. If we see enough of our market moving to run 64-bit operating systems, we will likewise move to make sure we support them.

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 11/27/2007 2:01:25 AM >


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to hammersinger)
Post #: 6
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/27/2007 4:16:48 AM   
hammersinger

 

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Eric: I have no doubt that your gang can continue to come up with excuses to look backwards and to market software that is four generations behind what is happening. However your position is that you want to run new essentially legacy software on 32-bit emulators. That is fine. I still enjoy playing Imperialism II on emulation. It is a nice little game that will never challenge my hardware. I would not invest in developing software for fifteen-years dead machines however.
The world is moving on. More computer power leads to more potential in all dimensions of gaming including visual effects, AI complexity etc. The equipment is cheap. My gaming rig has a 1080p-enabled Samsung 22" flat panel which was around $350 from NewEgg, a Brisabane dual core CPU that was around $100, a $110 Asus mobo that does way more than I need. A Radeon 2600 PRO which was probably $100 and a set of Logitech THX Dolby 5.1 speakers that cost $130.00. I recycled all the case-keyboard-mice and drives for this rig so that was all free. A few years ago this sort of capability would have cost several times this price and next year it will likely cost 1/4 of this price. (Samsung just expanded a fab to make 8th generation glass that comes out 52" standard. LCD prices will fall through the floor.) In another year the AMD integrated packages like "spider" or "cartwheel" will deliver massively more computational/video/interactivity than we have now and my little rig will not be competitive. Intel also makes killer processers and lots of them.
So, for all this I can play Imperialism II or some other emulator-encapsulated 1980's game. Great. Maybe I'll go back to Pong. In fact I am thinking about getting an Xbox or a Wii or both. They look like fun.
The reason I asked the question was that I have felt burned by Matrix when I discovered that "Crown of Glory" would not run on this rig. "Well, I thought, they coul not even get that right. Maybe I should ask if this new, rather attractve, Napoleonics game has been tested on 64-bit?" So your response is maybe and maybe not Caveat Emptor. OK, no sale.
Stll looking for good games.
Hammersinger

(in reply to hammersinger)
Post #: 7
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/27/2007 4:21:18 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32552
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From: Vermont, USA
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Hammersinger,

In response to that, I can only say that if we began to design for requirements such as those you have, we would eliminate most of our market. You might be surprised how many wargamers are way back on the hardware upgrade curve. Frankly, we get quite a bit more in the way of complaints when a game has higher minimum specs than we do when it doesn't exploit the latest and greatest hardware or software.

I understand how you feel, having built such a system, but unfortunately our resources are quite finite and we just can't test (and thus officially support) every configuration.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to hammersinger)
Post #: 8
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/27/2007 6:12:30 AM   
Murat


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We wargamers are not graphic whores for the most part so frequently KISS applies :)

< Message edited by Murat -- 11/28/2007 10:45:37 AM >

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Post #: 9
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/28/2007 1:57:03 AM   
JavaJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

We wargamer are not graphoc whores for the most part so frequently KISS applies :)


Amen to that brother, keep the flashing spinning skulls that mutate into kaleidoscope windows looking into the 4th dimension off my screen. I'm happy with the nachos crunching sound of infantry!

_____________________________

Vice President Jersey Association Of Gamers
JerseyGamers.com

(in reply to Murat)
Post #: 10
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/28/2007 3:03:52 AM   
tgb

 

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If not for Matrix there would be practically no 2007 releases that would run on my aging rig.

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Post #: 11
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/28/2007 4:41:17 AM   
hammersinger

 

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Joined: 12/28/2005
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Eric: I just looked on Pricewatch and some other places. The only supply of 32-bit chips for desktops seem to be in the hands of scavanger houses. They are going for small bucks. This level of technology is no longer being manufactured where it will enter the developed world mainstream market. Therefore Matrix is building fossil programs for a fossil market. When anyone, anywhere in the developed world replaces a desktop rig it will be with 64-bit tech. Similarly the graphics are advancing with more and more GPU capability in chipsets and glue-on mobo chips in the $5.00 range. Some individuals predict that tri-core and quad-core CPUs will have one of the cores be a GPU. There is a limit to what an emulator can do and since Matrix apparently does not even test for compatability on 64-bit you are going to have more customers like me who feel burned by a purchase that does not work on modern tech. I should repeat that my gaming rig is not very sophisticated or powerful or leading-edge. It is trailing edge if anything. Matrix is off the edge.

Regarding GPUs and naive ideas about "graphics whores:" This is not the point. If you would read Alex Saint John* on the evolution of modern gaming you will discover that games are progressively run by the GPUs not the CPU. In a Windows box playing a game all the CPU does, nowadays, is load the OS. Specifically:

"There is another important reason that GPUs have momentum for taking over for the CPU. GPUs are better designed for accelerating tomorrow’s nonenterprise computational problems. ... most games derive little or no performance benefit from being threaded or multicore optimized. One of the reasons for this is that the heavy computational lifting and parallelism is already largely handled by the GPU. ...We evolved massively parallel computing brains to cope with the enormous complexity of the environment we live in. Traditional CPU architectures, on the other hand, were designed with serial processing in mind. Although parallelism was added to them over time to speed them up, a modern computer is essentially an extremely fast serial processing device. Although very powerful, it still requires “unnatural acts” to get modern CPUs to solve real-time parallel processing problems...The GPU’s native architectural advantage for future computing derives from its physics roots. It’s easy to forget that a 3D game is an extraordinary achievement in real-time simulation of optical physics. Early GPUs were really just highly specialized massively parallel physics engines that have evolved greater processing flexibility over time. To stretch the point, a modern GPU has a great deal more in common with the structure of a human brain than the CPU does. It’s no coincidence that the GPU’s ability to “visualize” an interactive real-time 3D world for us has resulted in an architecture with a lot in common with the one we use to visualize an interactive 3D world for ourselves."("The Saint: GPU Dominance", CPU Magazine, October 2007, Vol. 7 Issue 10, print issue page 15)**

So: Not only is the Matrix market a fossil it is using a computational element of the computer, the CPU, which is rapidly becoming obsolete for any serious gaming purposes. Dig it, the parallelism is in the GPU not the CPU. Parallel processing is the future of all nonenterprise computing. All the interesting stuff in the gaming world will eventually be parallel not von Neumann.***

So who would care about this? Aside from old cranks like me who whine about Matrix' shortcomings the whole world is becoing 64-bit enabled. Gaming is a huge marketplace. After security software gaming is the largest aftermarket purchase for typical consumer-level computers. People keep buying games long after they stop buying security software or enterprise software or whatever. Wired Magazine prediced that gaming would be larger than all other forms of entertainment combined in the future (including movies, music and pro sports).

Matrix has competition. The market segment it serves is large enough to attract real competitors whether they write for it or port to it from a console edition or whatever. Avalon Hill and SPI also made great games once upon a time. I purchased my copy of Tactics II (The first mass-market board wargame) from the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry store when I was probably age twelve. I have bought and discarded more board wargames than most people can recall. My observation is that all wargame companies commit suicide one way or another. This is unfortunate. It would be nice if Matrix could avoid this common fate.

I should note that as I am writing this I am also downloading a copy of a game from Digital River which I just purchased from the Matrix website. The download is very slow. This may indicate that your current Hiliday Sale is going well. If you do send David Heath out to a shopping mall in a Santa suit will you please have someone take pictures for the website?
Thanks,
hammersinger



*so Google him.

** The Saint is wrong about computers and brains being very similar. This is a common misconception spread by various hucksters, bums and criminals who want the government and dumb businesspeople to give them money to develop "Artificial Intelligence." The brain is primarily an endocrine organ with some computational capacities not a computer-like organ. Consciousness is not like what comes out of a computer multimedia experience. Computers extend human mathematical abilities in business and science applications. Recently computational achievements crudely model interactive environments in games. People who do not get out much may think this is "realistic." They should go for a walk some time. I have visited the oh-so-beautiful and techno-impressive-takes-the-breath-away websites of "Artificial Intelligence" firms and inquired of them: "You are promoting an artificial version of "Intelligence." What do you define as "Inetlligence" real or artificial? So far none of them will respond to my emails. None. These people all know they are selling nothingness.

***von Neumann invented the modern serial-adding-machine CPU.



(in reply to tgb)
Post #: 12
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/28/2007 5:43:41 AM   
dinsdale


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

We wargamer are not graphoc whores for the most part so frequently KISS applies :)

I'd like to be an AI whore though.

hammersingers explanation of future hardware would lead to the elimination of at least one of the poor excuses being trotted out for poor AIs.

I know wargamers appear to be born luddites, but not all change is an evil plot to facilitate FPS :)

(in reply to Murat)
Post #: 13
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/28/2007 8:38:17 AM   
Veldor


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Hammer,

HP and other Server Vendors haven't made many if any 32bit servers for years yet a vast majority of businesses large and small still install 32bit Windows Server 2003 on their brand new 64bit servers.

The only thing that has changed that trend is a few hard stances by Microsoft to only support 64bit with certain new applications (Like Exchange 2007). These are applications that are so optimized for 64bit, they basically run like crap on 32bit and are thus not officially supported on 32bit.

Until more applications and other items are written specifically for 64bit and with optimization in mind 32bit applications and games will be the standard. Even the Vista installation base is questionable at best so I'm quite positive the 64bit install base is even less (And most especially amongst wargamers).

As you probably know already, another thing that will eventually drive 64bit is the need for Vista Systems with more than 4GB of RAM. However 2GB is around the norm today still so that boundary is still awhile off.

(in reply to hammersinger)
Post #: 14
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/28/2007 9:42:16 AM   
Ursa MAior

 

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Hammersinger

Dont you have aything else to do than post page long whinings? Why dont yo go somewhere else? A whole bunch of tangos (see AQI/SCIRI etc) are starving for this kind of style but not us.




_____________________________


Art by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to Veldor)
Post #: 15
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/28/2007 11:09:17 AM   
Murat


Posts: 803
Joined: 9/17/2003
From: South Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hammersinger
Eric: I just looked on Pricewatch and some other places. The only supply of 32-bit chips for desktops seem to be in the hands of scavanger houses. They are going for small bucks. This level of technology is no longer being manufactured where it will enter the developed world mainstream market. Therefore Matrix is building fossil programs for a fossil market. When anyone, anywhere in the developed world replaces a desktop rig it will be with 64-bit tech. Similarly the graphics are advancing with more and more GPU capability in chipsets and glue-on mobo chips in the $5.00 range. Some individuals predict that tri-core and quad-core CPUs will have one of the cores be a GPU. There is a limit to what an emulator can do and since Matrix apparently does not even test for compatability on 64-bit you are going to have more customers like me who feel burned by a purchase that does not work on modern tech. I should repeat that my gaming rig is not very sophisticated or powerful or leading-edge. It is trailing edge if anything. Matrix is off the edge.


Both AMD and Intel have abandoned tri-core due to Intel's successful "quad" (which is really a double double) marketing. AMD has promised a true Quad in 2008 and Intel claimed the same right after them.

quote:

Regarding GPUs and naive ideas about "graphics whores:" This is not the point.


Actually this is the point. GPUs are for GRAPHICS, especially 3D ones. Matrix games resemble board games more than MMORPGs and graphics can be minimal and still provide a desired product

quote:

If you would read Alex Saint John* on the evolution of modern gaming you will discover that games are progressively run by the GPUs not the CPU. In a Windows box playing a game all the CPU does, nowadays, is load the OS. Specifically:

"There is another important reason that GPUs have momentum for taking over for the CPU. GPUs are better designed for accelerating tomorrow’s nonenterprise computational problems. ... most games derive little or no performance benefit from being threaded or multicore optimized. One of the reasons for this is that the heavy computational lifting and parallelism is already largely handled by the GPU. ...We evolved massively parallel computing brains to cope with the enormous complexity of the environment we live in. Traditional CPU architectures, on the other hand, were designed with serial processing in mind. Although parallelism was added to them over time to speed them up, a modern computer is essentially an extremely fast serial processing device. Although very powerful, it still requires “unnatural acts” to get modern CPUs to solve real-time parallel processing problems...The GPU’s native architectural advantage for future computing derives from its physics roots. It’s easy to forget that a 3D game is an extraordinary achievement in real-time simulation of optical physics. Early GPUs were really just highly specialized massively parallel physics engines that have evolved greater processing flexibility over time. To stretch the point, a modern GPU has a great deal more in common with the structure of a human brain than the CPU does. It’s no coincidence that the GPU’s ability to “visualize” an interactive real-time 3D world for us has resulted in an architecture with a lot in common with the one we use to visualize an interactive 3D world for ourselves."("The Saint: GPU Dominance", CPU Magazine, October 2007, Vol. 7 Issue 10, print issue page 15)**

So: Not only is the Matrix market a fossil it is using a computational element of the computer, the CPU, which is rapidly becoming obsolete for any serious gaming purposes. Dig it, the parallelism is in the GPU not the CPU. Parallel processing is the future of all nonenterprise computing. All the interesting stuff in the gaming world will eventually be parallel not von Neumann.***

So who would care about this? Aside from old cranks like me who whine about Matrix' shortcomings the whole world is becoing 64-bit enabled. Gaming is a huge marketplace. After security software gaming is the largest aftermarket purchase for typical consumer-level computers. People keep buying games long after they stop buying security software or enterprise software or whatever. Wired Magazine prediced that gaming would be larger than all other forms of entertainment combined in the future (including movies, music and pro sports).


The future of 'modern gaming' is also console based. Far more Wii and Playstation games sell than PC. Ask retailers and they will tell you they move more product for old consoles than for modern PCs.

quote:

Matrix has competition. The market segment it serves is large enough to attract real competitors whether they write for it or port to it from a console edition or whatever. Avalon Hill and SPI also made great games once upon a time. I purchased my copy of Tactics II (The first mass-market board wargame) from the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry store when I was probably age twelve. I have bought and discarded more board wargames than most people can recall. My observation is that all wargame companies commit suicide one way or another. This is unfortunate. It would be nice if Matrix could avoid this common fate.


You seem to misunderstand what the role of Matrix is. Matrix is a facilitator for devs. People make games that they think will sell and Matrix helps them take their finished product to market.

quote:

*snip*

*so Google him.

** The Saint is wrong about computers and brains being very similar. This is a common misconception spread by various hucksters, bums and criminals who want the government and dumb businesspeople to give them money to develop "Artificial Intelligence." The brain is primarily an endocrine organ with some computational capacities not a computer-like organ. Consciousness is not like what comes out of a computer multimedia experience. Computers extend human mathematical abilities in business and science applications. Recently computational achievements crudely model interactive environments in games. People who do not get out much may think this is "realistic." They should go for a walk some time. I have visited the oh-so-beautiful and techno-impressive-takes-the-breath-away websites of "Artificial Intelligence" firms and inquired of them: "You are promoting an artificial version of "Intelligence." What do you define as "Inetlligence" real or artificial? So far none of them will respond to my emails. None. These people all know they are selling nothingness.

***von Neumann invented the modern serial-adding-machine CPU.


Although the single-memory architecture became commonly known by the name von Neumann architecture as a result of von Neumann's paper, the architecture's conception involved the contributions of others, including J. Presper Eckert and John William Mauchly, inventors of the ENIAC at the University of Pennsylvania. The mistaken name for the architecture is discussed in John W. Mauchly and the Development of the ENIAC Computer, part of the online ENIAC museum, in Robert Slater's computer history book, Portraits in Silicon, and in Nancy Stern's book From ENIAC to UNIVAC .

So the short version of all of this is simply that you are asking Matrix (or the game developers that use their services) to jump on in and take the lead where larger companies like EA have failed to. And you think they are being unrealistic?

(in reply to hammersinger)
Post #: 16
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/28/2007 3:17:42 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hammersinger,

In response to that, I can only say that if we began to design for requirements such as those you have, we would eliminate most of our market. You might be surprised how many wargamers are way back on the hardware upgrade curve. Frankly, we get quite a bit more in the way of complaints when a game has higher minimum specs than we do when it doesn't exploit the latest and greatest hardware or software.

I understand how you feel, having built such a system, but unfortunately our resources are quite finite and we just can't test (and thus officially support) every configuration.

Regards,

- Erik


Hurray for Erik sticking to WHAT WORKS instead of following the pied piper down IT DOESN"T WORK computerland. We can live with 32bit wargames from now till the cows crow. Just because one person has some overblown piece of garbage that only runs 64bit applications doesn't mean everyone has to follow him into the sea of dispair. ;) It is well known that status wargamers do not upgrade or want to have to upgrade their computers every 5 years. :) I figure around 2010 maybe it will or might be time to move up to something else. But, Matrixgames isn't going to be pushing games out the door every year like this year anyways. So, we all got a huge smorgasborg of wargames this year for our wonderful 32bit OS's to last us a long long time. ;) Those that have 64 bit technology will just have to lump it. ;)

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 17
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/29/2007 2:02:01 AM   
JavaJoe


Posts: 546
Joined: 9/12/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hammersinger,

In response to that, I can only say that if we began to design for requirements such as those you have, we would eliminate most of our market. You might be surprised how many wargamers are way back on the hardware upgrade curve. Frankly, we get quite a bit more in the way of complaints when a game has higher minimum specs than we do when it doesn't exploit the latest and greatest hardware or software.

I understand how you feel, having built such a system, but unfortunately our resources are quite finite and we just can't test (and thus officially support) every configuration.

Regards,

- Erik


Hurray for Erik sticking to WHAT WORKS instead of following the pied piper down IT DOESN"T WORK computerland. We can live with 32bit wargames from now till the cows crow. Just because one person has some overblown piece of garbage that only runs 64bit applications doesn't mean everyone has to follow him into the sea of dispair. ;) It is well known that status wargamers do not upgrade or want to have to upgrade their computers every 5 years. :) I figure around 2010 maybe it will or might be time to move up to something else. But, Matrixgames isn't going to be pushing games out the door every year like this year anyways. So, we all got a huge smorgasborg of wargames this year for our wonderful 32bit OS's to last us a long long time. ;) Those that have 64 bit technology will just have to lump it. ;)


Wargamers squeeze the nickle so hard it looks like the Indian is riding a Buffalo.



_____________________________

Vice President Jersey Association Of Gamers
JerseyGamers.com

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 18
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/29/2007 3:02:50 AM   
donkuchi


Posts: 1047
Joined: 3/14/2004
From: Cleveland, Ohio
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hammersinger

My main machine is a dual-core 64-bit running WinXP 64. Will this game run in this environment?
I have had to abandon several games that do not make the 64-bit cut. I am not interested in multibooting or Win Vista.
best, hammersinger


I am running an AMD 64 Dual core processor (AMD 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4200+ overclocked to run at 2.5 Ghz with 1 gig of RAM). I only have Windows XP professional and not the 64 but it runs fine for me as a beta tester. I don't know much about XP 64 but if you can emulate my setup, you should be fine. (GeForce 7900 GS video card 256MB)(RealTek Sound card)

(in reply to hammersinger)
Post #: 19
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/29/2007 4:11:06 AM   
zenmaster

 

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Hammersinger,

It sounds as if you are really behind the times and confused about computer technology.

First, Windows XP-64 was never more than a niche OS, far more of a niche than even Linux.
Few software companies will even consider looking at certifying software to run on it.
The reason it never saw the light of day was the arrival of Vista.

If you choose to run an OS used by a minute part of the computing industry, you can't expect everyone to flock to your door.
64-Bit computing does very little for the majority of users.
This is why even you will not find Vista-64 as even an option on most new computer systems.

Furthermore, the GPU is NOT where the computational direction is going in the industry.
A few years ago, that is where many people thought things were going, but the industry has reversed course.

The concept of physics on GPU has been a failure and the focus is now moving back towards off-loading that back onto the the CPU.
Most games see a big boost from Dual-Core Graphics, but less so from Quad due to the limits of the threading of the gaming engines.
As new engines are developed they will make more and more use of the extra cores.

Futhermore, many of these games focus on graphical output and not AI.

I rarely post, but you have inspired me.
I work for a software devleopment firm myself and I have 13 Different Operating Systems that I have running on computers in my Office that I need to deal with in regards to supporting our software. However, Windows XP-64 is NOT one of those. The key for supporting all of these OSes is not even in dual-booting my friend. It's in Virtualization. It's a glorious thing.

So amusing you talk about getting with modern technology, but you are so far behind yourself.

(in reply to dinsdale)
Post #: 20
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/29/2007 5:12:21 AM   
Veldor


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Great post Zen especially your mention of virtualization. Which prompts me to state I think given the huge explosion of virtualization technologies (EMC buying VMware, Citrix buying XenSource, Yahoo buying Greenborders, Microsoft trying to invent better virtualization products etc.) that it actually may be more likely that even a home user will be needing to run a game in a virtual machine before they will need to run it on a 64-bit operating system!!!

Greenborders was an excellent example of how virtualization technology can help the home user (It virtualizes IE/Internet access so each time you close your window essentially the VM is closed and all viruses, trojans, cookies, etc all go away as well). It may not be too long off before its commonplace for each app/game to launch in some kind of its own virtual machine/mini-os/etc.

Yet I wouldn't have a chance at convincing Matrix to start supporting me running their games in virtual machines today (Though its quite possible many would actually work).

I think its better if they focus just on adding better Vista support for the time being.

(in reply to zenmaster)
Post #: 21
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/29/2007 5:48:37 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32552
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From: Vermont, USA
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Actually, we're currently moving all our pre-release testing to a few systems that support virtualization, to make it easier to ensure "clean" environments for installation and compatibility testing. Virtualization has some major benefits for us on the testing and production side and we may go with server virtualization in the near future as well to consolidate some of those systems. What I'd really like to do... ah, but I digress. Back to EIA!

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Veldor)
Post #: 22
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/29/2007 7:16:49 AM   
sabre100

 

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Erik no fair we dont have EIA yet so I think you should wait to play it like the rest of us until next week

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 23
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/29/2007 1:22:02 PM   
ravinhood


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I think they should wait until Dec 14th to release it when the physical edtion is ready as well. ;) Also ZEN bravo on your excellent post and rebuttal to the technogeek. ;)

(in reply to sabre100)
Post #: 24
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/30/2007 3:11:26 AM   
hammersinger

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 12/28/2005
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Let me point a coupla' things out:
1. AMD is launching/has launched a tri-core model of the phenom on the spider platform. See this discussion: http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/11/13/amd-phenom-9000-quad-core-8000
Apparenly the quad cores will have 9000-series numeration and the tricores will have 8000-series enumeration. These are part of a total package involving a cpu+mobo chipsets+plug-in GPUs. They believe that this integrated package will outperform Intel offerings. We will see if that is true. they are saying that gaming in particular will benefit from this integrated approach. This gives a market for CPUs consisting of one, two, three or four on a chip. All of them are 64-bit. Intel also makes lots of very powerful multicores.

The 32-bit machines still in existence are an endangered species and will fail in a few more years. Few of those machines, particulary the mass-market types, seem to last beyond five to seven years. The cheapo power supplies eventually drop some stray voltage onto the mobo and burn it out. (I have had this happen repeatedly with both home equipment and at the hospital with supposedly commercial-grade equipment.) There are fewer and fewer replacement parts as the days pass. The price of entry-level 64-bit is dropping daily. I doubt that anyone whose system is much below my modest specs could be considered to be running a computer at all. There are probably hand-held devices like PDAs and some cell phones which have more processing power and memory in them. Yet this is the market that Matrix is marketing to and many of you are defending like it was the last ditch on Borodino.

2. I described my system not to praise it. It is not a high-spec system at all. It is cheap and made with a lot of recycled parts. If you want to see a modern high-spec gamer try here: http://www.voodoopc.com/system/quotekitchenlast.aspx?spid=61#imgmed
That is a high-end Voodoo rig at about $9700 comes with a water cooled video card and no monitor, sound board or speakers. I would not be happy buying something like the Voodoo to play 32-bit emulator games.

3. I ran my dissertation statistics and word processing on a Kaypro II which had a six-inch monochrome screen no graphics and no games. I had to write my own statistics programs but was able to run Word Perfect or something for the word processing. Good thing. The final result was several hundred pages and barely manageable with that technology. Two years later I bought a shiney new 16-bit computer with a real monitor. That thing played games!

Now: If you are old enough you can remember this era in computer gaming. The color interface was primitive but it worked. We soon had bunches of games from companies who are all defunct now. Lots of graphics adapters were developed. Intel stabilized the market with the ISA interface and things took off. Intel began to put out 32-bit processers, the 80386. I think the first 32-bit CPU that I got was a Pentium I. At that point we had increasing quality graphics and increasing processor resources although it was a while before RAM prices really dropped. Texas Instruments had done a study during the late 1970's which came to the conclusion that in the digital electronics market everyone always buys up. Nobody ever buys less processing power to replace more processing power even if they do not need increased power for the intended function of the device. This seems to be true. 32-bit conquered the (PC) gaming world and relentless developments in graphics, sound, storage and interface devices drove along. Why? Because we all wanted better and more functional stuff to play better/more graphics-heavy games. I doubt that anyone who is reading this would replace their 32-bit system with a 16-bit system and suffer the resultant loss of speed, graphics, memory etc.

The potential gaming experience improvement going from 32-bit to 64-bit will be much more dramatic than what we got going from 16-bit to 32-bit. At some point there will be "no comparison" and when software is available to take advantage of the universally-available 64-bit marketplace the market will move and not look back. That will be the end of non-adapting companies like Matrix just like the las move was the end for non-adapting 16-bit game companies. I have been watching several European firms and I think that the "64-bit killer app games" (in this market nich) will come from there.

4. I bought, downloaded, installed and have played enough of Starshatter from Matrix to believe that it runs on 64-bit Win XL. That was nice. It seems to me that discovering specifications like this would be a function of Customer Support or Product Support or System Recommendations or something. Caveat Matrix.

5. Regarding Vista: This review: http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/11/27/xp-beats-vista-performance
shows that Vista with SP1 only executes at about half the speed of XP. Vista is garbage for many reasons and will be seen as "Millenium 2.0" soon. That only leaves XL and a few Linux distros in the 64-bit game.

6. The GPU future of gaming is not my idea. I gave a referenced modern quote from Alex Saint John. Saint John is a major player in the gaming world and a recognized authority on game programming. Read the book about him and his rebellion at Microsoft, for instance. I tend to believe him. Other people have other opinions with no data or footnotes to back them up. Thats so nice.

7. We will see if virtualization does anything in the game world. Meanwhile it sound like this game EIA, will not be on my buy list. That is too bad.
best,
hammersinger

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 25
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/30/2007 3:36:01 AM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 1569
Joined: 3/18/2004
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quote:

In response to that, I can only say that if we began to design for requirements such as those you have, we would eliminate most of our market. You might be surprised how many wargamers are way back on the hardware upgrade curve. Frankly, we get quite a bit more in the way of complaints when a game has higher minimum specs than we do when it doesn't exploit the latest and greatest hardware or software.


I agree with the Matrix position. hammersinger, despite his technical savvy, fails to distinguish between the computer gaming world and the computer wargaming world. There is a significant difference. A wargame like EiA does not need high end hardware and software, and many grognards are slow to upgrade their systems.

When I go to World Boardgaming Championship in August each year, it's amazing to find some players who do not even own a home computer. There's a market of grognards out there, and Matrix is doing what it can to attract them to computer wargames. Pushing expensive high end systems would not attract these players, and the techno-geeks playing high-speed eye-candy games are not interested in wargames like EiA anyway.

(in reply to hammersinger)
Post #: 26
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/30/2007 3:47:57 AM   
Murat


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From: South Carolina
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1. Sorry Erik, et. al. @ Matrix cuz I know you hate these type of commments that follow.

2. Hammer, you could not last in an EIA game if you cannot even admit your errors.

3. 2 years, 10 posts, 5 here talking out your ass about things that you have heard from others instead of doing your own research work.

4. If you are going to talk about AMD or anyone else's products, quote them, not commentators. Check the AMD site, their have moved on to quad, no tri. Phenom 9000 series is being marketed.

5. I quoted my sources after you mistated some facts. As for the future of gaming, just pick up the Wall Street Journal, check in Forbes, or even just go to your local store and see for yourself what they all say the future of gaming is and you will see it is NOT PC, it IS console.

6. Mr. St. John is considered by many to be insanely evil in that he developed IN GAME advertising.  His programs are tagged as spyware and adware. Bookwise if you mean Renegades of the Empire it is not only about him. Yes his development of DirectX is nice, but it was his job and if not him, Gates could have had another of his brain trust develop something with a different title for the same purpose.  He makes nice mind candy games (beer and pretzels if you like that term better) but his main funding comes from advertising, mostly of the spam nature. You are welcome to him as a hero if you like, I personally hope he slides under a gas truck and tastes his own blood (modifications of his programs are used for such nice purposes as spam emailing in MMORPGs).

(in reply to hammersinger)
Post #: 27
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/30/2007 3:59:17 AM   
zenmaster

 

Posts: 39
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Hammersinger,

You again are very lost.
You are running an OS that few people are using, need, or Want.
It is for a very Niche market and that Nice is not the Home User or gaming market.

Now to address some of your almost points...........

1) You do undertand that AMD's "Spider" system is all about "Marketing"?
They are going from Dual to Quad Cores to make use of the more multi-threaded apps.
(The 3-Core Processors are quads with a single defective core.)
The GPUs will simple PCI-E2 slots just like that exist today.
However, you will find these are being used for Intense Graphical Work, not standard computations.

32-Bit CPUs have little to do with either Operating Systems or the software running on them.

The truth is, 64-bit software and Operating systems are slower and less efficient than 32-bit Software and Operating Systems for use that does not require the 64-bit code.
And in general, Home/Office use does not really need 64-bit software and it's overhead.
For some heavy duty programs such as SQL Databases and the like which need loads of memory, they make sense.
For most Desktop products, it clearly is not.

2) And your point is what?

3) And again your point of a personal resume is what? You do understand that such statements are one of the basic fallacies in logical arguments. You don't say "I'm correct because I have credentials". Rather you should say, I'm correct because of these facts. I could give my resume, but that would not prove I am correct.

However, If you are going to talk about the past, present, and future of gaming we can do that.
Companies make money by making and selling products that are desired by the current market place.

Intel Created the 64-Bit Alpha CPU years ago.
Microsoft made a 64-Bit Version of Windows years ago for that CPU.
Nobody bought the CPU or OS.
IBM made OS/2 as a 32-bit OS far before Windows, but nobody bought it.
Vista 64 is currently available and most CPUs being shipped are 64-bit, however Vista-32 is what is being shipped!

Software companies like Matrix are not going to try and force market change. Rather, They are going to meet the demands of the one that exists.

4) The most common question when buying any software is the system requirements. If you can't find them, ask. Most likely, you knew that it was not officially supported but rather you hoped it was since many software programs run on an Operating Systems on which they have not been certified.

5) The Link is also garbage. I could find tests that show Vista Outpeforming XP.
However, in your case I would ditch XP-64 as soon as possible and grab yourself a nice 64-bit Linux Distro such as Suse.
Since Microsoft will be dropping support for XP in the not too distant future and you dislike Vista, Linux is the only way to go.
There is a good chance you will be able to get your games running under WINE.

6) Believe who you like, but fact that both Intel and AMD are moving from Single to Duel to Quad with 8-Core CPUs from Intel within a year clearly demonstrate that the big players are focusing on increased CPU loads. Intel has shown many demos about how Physics is being off-loaded onto the additonal cores. In fact, there was only a single significant company working on GPU based physics computation.
This company has been purchased by Intel and basically terminating all movement in this area for the next few years. Now, what happens in future decades really is of little concern for Matrix and EIA.

7) That is really your lose and not that of Matrix. As both a software developer with customers across dozens of countries and all continents except Antartica, I grasp the concept of the support and development costs for all different supported platforms and languages. The $50 that Matrix could have gotten from you and perhaps two-three other sales is likely not going to come close to the cost they would have incurred for those potential sales.

(in reply to hammersinger)
Post #: 28
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/30/2007 5:46:39 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1519
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From: King's Landing
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Hammer, with all due respect, I don't think your defending your stance all that well.

Let says, for giggles, every single wargamer in creation goes out and buys a new 64-bit PC like the one(s) your talking about tommorrow.

Thing is, 99% of them are probably going to load 32-Bit XP or 32-Bit Vista on them (Or the system will simply come with a 32bit OS).

Better yet its gonna work just great for them and they will likely have far less issues than the 1% who do load a 64-bit OS. So how is your argument even relevant?

That fact isn't gonna change even half as fast as the Vista Adoption rate, and even THAT is slow (As you point out with your own hatred of it).

If even you are the first to trash a new OS why on earth would you think the greater majority of us are so apt to soon abadon what we run now in favor of this miracle 64-bit version?

In a perfect world Matrix would certify every single game for 64-bit OS's. They'd also make a Linux and a Mac Version. And of course an XBOX 360 and a PS3 version. Let's not forget a Wii version that leverages the numchucks, and of course the Nintendo DS version for on the road EIA play.

No again, much as I'd probably like to agree with you, I think its already enough to ask a game company of Matrix's size to try to juggle both XP and VISTA support alone.

I'm torn though. Do I buy EIA now or hold out for the Windows 7 Version (Formerly codenamed Windows Vienna)? Oddly enough even though it isn't out until 2010 there are still peeps like me soon to be running the early alphas and I demand support! The world should be ready for a hypervisor OS today and that means MATRIX!

BTW, to all the 64bit junkies out there YES WINDOWS 7 WILL BE IN BOTH A 32BIT AND A 64BIT FLAVOR AND THAT IS IN THE YEAR 2010. Only the Server version will be exclusively 64bit.


(in reply to zenmaster)
Post #: 29
RE: Will This Run on 64-bit OSs? - 11/30/2007 6:02:27 AM   
timewalker03

 

Posts: 171
Joined: 6/9/2003
From: Omaha, NE
Status: offline
Best Thread Ever!

(in reply to Veldor)
Post #: 30
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