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RE: Hex Areas and "Allowed Equipment Density"

 
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RE: Hex Areas and "Allowed Equipment Density" - 11/14/2007 6:13:25 PM   
a white rabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit
..troops don't disperse in jungle they clump, follow existing traills or cut new ones, , you put your feet where the native guide puts his, trust me on this..


If you're following a narrow track after a native guide, then the hex is badlands, and that's another issue. Of course you'd be insane to put large forces in badlands anyway as they will die there.

Just plain jungle means the terrain is passable to any motor vehicle in the game.


..i hesitated to suggest that jungle is badlands with added wood-work and wildlife, and becomes so about 2-3 miles from any village, altho it does explain a lot about Malaya 41..


< Message edited by a white rabbit -- 11/14/2007 6:14:08 PM >


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RE: Hex Areas and "Allowed Equipment Density" - 11/15/2007 3:37:40 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..i hesitated to suggest that jungle is badlands with added wood-work and wildlife, and becomes so about 2-3 miles from any village, altho it does explain a lot about Malaya 41..



Just a jungle hex is not impermeable to motorised equipment nor to supply. Therefore it must have significant trackways through the hex.

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RE: Hex Areas and "Allowed Equipment Density" - 11/15/2007 3:54:58 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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Thus far, I haven’t seen anything to suggest that there’s anything wrong with Norm’s formula. It only concerns hex-scale, nothing else, and it handles that about as well as it can be handled. The adjustment it contains for the smaller hexes is justified. Clearly, the density penalty has to be dependent on hex-scale, regardless of whether it is also dependent on any other factors, and that is what Norm’s formula addresses.

Now, if there is any justification for further adjustments due to terrain (or anything else), those adjustments would be in addition to, and independent from, the current hex-scale formula. Personally, I only think there are a few cases where that will be an issue. Those would be the cases where the hex can only be entered via a road.

For example, consider relief. In TOAW relief is modeled via three terrain types: Hills, Mountains, and Alpine. A certain amount of relief above a minimum gets modeled as hills. It can be entered by all units and has some defense benefits. Increase the relief and it becomes modeled as mountains. Again, it can be entered by all units and has even more defense benefits. Finally, if the relief is so great that the terrain can’t be entered at all, it is modeled by Alpine. But Alpine can still be entered via a road through it.

A similar situation occurs for flooded marsh. Most units can only enter it via a road (although amphibious units are an exception). There are a few terrain types that can’t be entered by motorized units (badlands, dunes, etc.), except via a road. Super rivers and canals are similar to flooded marsh, except their movement prohibition can be overridden by fording ability, so I would omit them from this list.

In the cases where a unit can only enter a hex via a road, perhaps there ought to be some modeling of the impact of that fact. We can consider how to do it later. (A density penalty increase might be part of it. Also, the unit might be prohibited from incurring traffic penalties to enter the hex).

But, beyond those cases, I don’t think there is reason for any other terrain adjustments. Unusable terrain is terrain that can’t be entered. TOAW has specific terrain types to cover those cases (Alpine, Flooded Marsh, etc.). By definition, if the terrain can be entered, it can be used. (There’s some abstraction there, but that’s standard-operating-procedure for wargaming).

Should scenario designers have the ability to adjust the density penalty rate for their scenarios? Of course! Item 7.10 in the wishlist is one of my favorites (after all, I’ve designed both a Waterloo and a Gettysburg scenario, not to mention two WWI scenarios). For those who haven’t downloaded the wishlist, here’s what that item says:

7.10 Density combat penalties applied to all units, not just stacks.
7.10.1 Density combat penalty rates editable by designer. (Density movement penalties due to traffic jams are not affected by this.)


Note that one important part of that item is to apply density penalties to single units, not just stacks. (I actually still consider this to be a bug fix, not an enhancement).

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 11/15/2007 3:55:29 PM >

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Post #: 63
RE: Hex Areas and "Allowed Equipment Density" - 11/15/2007 4:26:44 PM   
vahauser


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Curtis,

You have item 7.10 on your wishlist.  Yes. But item 7.10 on your wishlist is not specific when it comes to implementation.

golden delicious proposed a specific implementation that I endorse and advocate: 

1) The scenario designer is given the option to choose the AED for his scenario. 
2) If the scenario designer chooses not to use this option, then the standard TOAW III formula for AED will be applied as the default.
3) If the scenario designer does choose to edit the AED for his scenario, then he simply enters the AED value he wants for his scenario into the data field provided by this option, and the standard TOAW III formula for AED is overridden.
4) The AED value entered by the scenario designer choosing to do so must be a number between 1 and 99,999 (or some other sufficiently large number). [This has been added by me and was not part of golden delicious's original solution.]


Anyway, I heartily approve of golden delicious's proposed implementation and I wish that I had this option today exactly as described above.

< Message edited by vahauser -- 11/15/2007 5:07:54 PM >


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Post #: 64
RE: Hex Areas and "Allowed Equipment Density" - 11/16/2007 11:41:41 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser
1) The scenario designer is given the option to choose the AED for his scenario. 
2) If the scenario designer chooses not to use this option, then the standard TOAW III formula for AED will be applied as the default.
3) If the scenario designer does choose to edit the AED for his scenario, then he simply enters the AED value he wants for his scenario into the data field provided by this option, and the standard TOAW III formula for AED is overridden.
4) The AED value entered by the scenario designer choosing to do so must be a number between 1 and 99,999 (or some other sufficiently large number). [This has been added by me and was not part of golden delicious's original solution.]


I don't see how that's any different from what 7.10.1 says. You would be able to edit the AED to whatever you want. How, specifically, does the above differ from that?

(in reply to vahauser)
Post #: 65
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