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Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6

 
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Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/11/2007 12:06:35 AM   
matchwood

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 9/9/2004
Status: offline 		Summary of results from Leo's ASW stock test:

4 squadrons on full range ASW at 1000 feet over 30 turns:

9xH8K - 0 hits
27xG4M1 - 0 hits
27xJake - 1 hit
27xHelen - 30+ hits

There appears to be a problem with torp armed planes using bombs against subs? I have run this test several times and the results are always similar to above.
Post #: 1
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/11/2007 12:09:17 AM   
VSWG


Posts: 3432
Joined: 5/31/2006
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: matchwood

Summary of results from Leo's ASW stock test:

4 squadrons on full range ASW at 1000 feet over 30 turns:

9xH8K - 0 hits
27xG4M1 - 0 hits
27xJake - 1 hit
27xHelen - 30+ hits

There appears to be a problem with torp armed planes using bombs against subs? I have run this test several times and the results are always similar to above.

No, all planes carry bombs when set to 'ASW' This setting also halves the range setting.

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RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/11/2007 12:19:05 AM   
matchwood

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 9/9/2004
Status: offline 		Ok...so you don't see any problem with these results then?

< Message edited by matchwood -- 10/11/2007 12:24:17 AM >

(in reply to VSWG)
Post #: 3
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/11/2007 12:23:02 AM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12510
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: matchwood

Summary of results from Leo's ASW stock test:

4 squadrons on full range ASW at 1000 feet over 30 turns:

9xH8K - 0 hits
27xG4M1 - 0 hits
27xJake - 1 hit
27xHelen - 30+ hits

There appears to be a problem with torp armed planes using bombs against subs? I have run this test several times and the results are always similar to above.

How many subs were in the area? I assume they were stationary?

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Post #: 4
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/11/2007 12:39:27 AM   
VSWG


Posts: 3432
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quote:

ORIGINAL: matchwood

Ok...so you don't see any problem with these results then?

I certainly do see a problem. Only the Jake's short range (3 hexes for ASW) can explain his poor performance (depending on how many subs had been within range). The Betty (ASW range 10) and Emily (ASW range 12) should hit at least as many subs as the Helen (ASW range 4). Both have torpedoes as 'primary' weapon, but apparently are not able to use their 'replacement' bombs against subs.

BTW, because of the decrease in range most players have stopped using the ASW setting altogether and spot subs using the naval search setting.

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Post #: 5
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/11/2007 12:53:04 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5517
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Not me. I use the heck out of my Helens for ASW. Once a sub is spotted, it is doomed to the face swarms of high experienced Helens and ASW groups built around my APD's.

The allies have any ship with a depth charge, I have my Helens.

(in reply to VSWG)
Post #: 6
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/11/2007 2:36:16 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 2579
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		All things equal: "We have a problem Houston"

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Post #: 7
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/11/2007 6:19:30 AM   
Ron James


Posts: 307
Joined: 6/18/2005
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		I went out with a girl called Helen in my youth, fair maiden but she couldn't spot my sub for toffee , vast amounts of beer and boiled eggs cured that problem, fair winds.

ronnie

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 8
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/11/2007 9:01:14 AM   
Yakface

 

Posts: 713
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		There is a problem with Nells/betties, Emily, Kate etc.  I have tried naval search and ASW but never achieved a hit with any torp armed plane in the 18 months of my current game.  They launch attacks, but never hit.  They also never hit shipping during the search phase.

(in reply to Ron James)
Post #: 9
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/11/2007 9:18:04 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 4657
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: In a little tin hut in a big tin shed
Status: offline 		1st thought, a squadron (27 Betties) searching a radius of 600miles is covering a lot of territory, its chance of finding a sub (without top rate ASW gear) is minimal, maybe it suppresses through forcing it to dive rather than combat it. Maybe fiddle with the height settings, a bit higher may be better? Does it carry fewer, larger bombs?

But the Jakes should be more effective?, but IMHO searching out to 240miles with 27 slow floatplanes isnt very efficient.

I dont know what range the Helen covers, does it carry more, smaller bombs?

I'm totally unsurprised that the 9 Emily's covering a radius of 720miles doesnt do much. (1,627,776sq miles or 180,864sq miles each)



< Message edited by JeffK -- 10/11/2007 9:23:00 AM >

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Post #: 10
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/11/2007 9:46:58 AM   
matchwood

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 9/9/2004
Status: offline 		For those of you not familiar with Leo's excelent test scenario:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=967245




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by matchwood -- 10/11/2007 9:50:17 AM >

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 11
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/11/2007 10:21:30 AM   
matchwood

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 9/9/2004
Status: offline 		Have just redone the test with the standard armament for Betty's and H8K set to bombs - results were comparable to the KI-49, possibly slightly less because of a lower manuver, but hits none the less.

Conclusion: ASW bomb equipping for planes with a primary armament of torps is faulty. Until it is fixed some players might want to change the default armament for the H8K?

(in reply to Yakface)
Post #: 12
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/11/2007 12:43:28 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 21608
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Nice test guys - thanks!


Leo "Apollo11"

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Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to matchwood)
Post #: 13
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/12/2007 12:09:39 AM   
VSWG


Posts: 3432
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From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: matchwood

Conclusion: ASW bomb equipping for planes with a primary armament of torps is faulty. Until it is fixed some players might want to change the default armament for the H8K?

If you listen really carefully, you can hear some devs grinding their teeth...

Thanks for all those tests, matchwood.

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Post #: 14
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/12/2007 12:19:02 AM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12510
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		Not to be a wet blanket, but well...is the issue here that the torp planes aren't hitting enough or that Helens are hitting too much.  That looks like a lot of hits to me.

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Post #: 15
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/12/2007 1:48:57 AM   
VSWG


Posts: 3432
Joined: 5/31/2006
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL:  niceguy2005

Not to be a wet blanket, but well...is the issue here that the torp planes aren't hitting enough or that Helens are hitting too much.  That looks like a lot of hits to me.

36 subs + 30 days + 27 Helens = 30+ hits... Sounds about right to me.

BTW, what was the experience level of these air groups, matchwood?

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Post #: 16
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/12/2007 4:21:38 AM   
matchwood

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 9/9/2004
Status: offline 		Average exp 75

(in reply to VSWG)
Post #: 17
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/12/2007 5:10:55 AM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6915
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		I have scored hits with Bettys but Sallys and Helens are far more effective.

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(in reply to matchwood)
Post #: 18
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/12/2007 10:04:50 AM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
Joined: 3/9/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Great info. Just what I was looking for.

Thank you

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Post #: 19
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/12/2007 3:14:01 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 21608
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Again - thanks for not forgetting my (old - I did it in v1.4 I think - I am at work now) test and testing with latest version!

The more tests the more things we can, hopefully and possibly, report as not OK and let our valiant programmers fix!


Leo "Apollo11"

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Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to mc3744)
Post #: 20
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/13/2007 12:21:48 AM   
Halsey


Posts: 4872
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: Indianapolis Indiana USA
Status: offline 		So, here's something to try.

If you put torp bombers on airfield attack, with a high naval search %.
Will the loadout definitely be bombs?

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Post #: 21
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/13/2007 1:27:03 PM   
Charles_22


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
From: Dallas, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: matchwood

Have just redone the test with the standard armament for Betty's and H8K set to bombs - results were comparable to the KI-49, possibly slightly less because of a lower manuver, but hits none the less.

Conclusion: ASW bomb equipping for planes with a primary armament of torps is faulty. Until it is fixed some players might want to change the default armament for the H8K?


But how many spotted subs were actually torped in the war? It would seem to me the sub would have to be very shallow, unless those sort of torps have some diving and homing capabilities.

(in reply to matchwood)
Post #: 22
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/13/2007 4:12:26 PM   
VSWG


Posts: 3432
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From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

But how many spotted subs were actually torped in the war? It would seem to me the sub would have to be very shallow, unless those sort of torps have some diving and homing capabilities.

You're missing his point: they switch from torpedoes to bombs when flying ASW. However, these "replacement" bombs seem to be not working, as matchwood didn't record a single hit.

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Post #: 23
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/14/2007 9:52:49 AM   
Charles_22


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
From: Dallas, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		So maybe they switch the load but the bombs behave like torps against subs? Maybe it's a training thing, that they set the torp planes with only torp training and are really bad bombing (no training). That is a bit illogical though, because why would you send out guys with no training with bombs, to hit a not terribly easy target to hit that way? The answer could be that you as commander are supposed to know that, and therefore even though they have ASW missions being possible, you shouldn't use them that way (long shot).

(in reply to VSWG)
Post #: 24
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/14/2007 4:13:46 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: matchwood

Summary of results from Leo's ASW stock test:

4 squadrons on full range ASW at 1000 feet over 30 turns:

9xH8K - 0 hits
27xG4M1 - 0 hits
27xJake - 1 hit
27xHelen - 30+ hits

There appears to be a problem with torp armed planes using bombs against subs? I have run this test several times and the results are always similar to above.



Given that Japanese ASW in ALL forms (planes, ships, mines, and shore batteries) managed to sink just over one Allied Sub a month during the real war...., I'd say that the problem is the number of "hits" by the Helens in a daily turn is about 2700% too large. You're talking about the wrong problem.. Even the Allies weren't as good as those Helens until 1943/44...

(in reply to matchwood)
Post #: 25
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/15/2007 7:00:31 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 2730
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
Given that Japanese ASW in ALL forms (planes, ships, mines, and shore batteries) managed to sink just over one Allied Sub a month during the real war...., I'd say that the problem is the number of "hits" by the Helens in a daily turn is about 2700% too large. You're talking about the wrong problem.. Even the Allies weren't as good as those Helens until 1943/44...


I agree completely, in my PBEM games we have a house rule no ASW searches below 6000 feet and no more than 1 squadron in a CV task force can be set to ASW search. I'd be interested in the results for both NS and ASW search at that altitude.

But I agree with Mike, the Helens look like the problem to me, not the other planes. Do a 6 month test, if they each get 1 or 2 hits that'd be just about right.

Jim

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RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/15/2007 8:19:23 PM   
Panther Bait


Posts: 500
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: matchwood

Summary of results from Leo's ASW stock test:

4 squadrons on full range ASW at 1000 feet over 30 turns:

9xH8K - 0 hits
27xG4M1 - 0 hits
27xJake - 1 hit
27xHelen - 30+ hits

There appears to be a problem with torp armed planes using bombs against subs? I have run this test several times and the results are always similar to above.



Given that Japanese ASW in ALL forms (planes, ships, mines, and shore batteries) managed to sink just over one Allied Sub a month during the real war...., I'd say that the problem is the number of "hits" by the Helens in a daily turn is about 2700% too large. You're talking about the wrong problem.. Even the Allies weren't as good as those Helens until 1943/44...


Did the Japanese use Helens (or any other medium-type army bomber) as anti-sub platforms in the war? Part of the reason for the excessive number of hits in the test is likely due to the extremely ahistorical nature of the test scenario he is using. How many times did the US station 36 subs within 300 miles of a enemy base?

The test intentionally uses excessive targets to get a better sample in a reasonable amount of turns. If you want to test whether the Helens are over-producing hits, you'd need to reduce the US sub presence to something like 4 or 5 subs and re-run the test.

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(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 27
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/16/2007 8:40:40 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 3639
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From: vermont
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quote:

Given that Japanese ASW in ALL forms (planes, ships, mines, and shore batteries) managed to sink just over one Allied Sub a month during the real war...., I'd say that the problem is the number of "hits" by the Helens in a daily turn is about 2700% too large. You're talking about the wrong problem.


Actually if you subtract the US subs lost due to accidents, non-combat reasons and the sub hit by bombers in the Cavite shipyard on day 2 of the war the score for all forms of Japanese ASW (including mines) falls substantially below 1 per month.

(in reply to Panther Bait)
Post #: 28
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/17/2007 12:40:01 PM   
Charles_22


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From: Dallas, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

Given that Japanese ASW in ALL forms (planes, ships, mines, and shore batteries) managed to sink just over one Allied Sub a month during the real war...., I'd say that the problem is the number of "hits" by the Helens in a daily turn is about 2700% too large. You're talking about the wrong problem.


Actually if you subtract the US subs lost due to accidents, non-combat reasons and the sub hit by bombers in the Cavite shipyard on day 2 of the war the score for all forms of Japanese ASW (including mines) falls substantially below 1 per month.


With allied repair advantages I'm surprised if any of them sink, to wit, 30 hits do not generate 30 sinkings. With that many subs it was probably fortunate for IJ if two of them sank. 30 hits with 4-5 subs, possibly big trouble, even for the allies, but this many subs with 30 hits? - pfft.


< Message edited by Charles_22 -- 10/17/2007 12:42:57 PM >

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 29
RE: Leo's ASW Test on 1.8.0.6 - 10/17/2007 3:36:44 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

Given that Japanese ASW in ALL forms (planes, ships, mines, and shore batteries) managed to sink just over one Allied Sub a month during the real war...., I'd say that the problem is the number of "hits" by the Helens in a daily turn is about 2700% too large. You're talking about the wrong problem.


Actually if you subtract the US subs lost due to accidents, non-combat reasons and the sub hit by bombers in the Cavite shipyard on day 2 of the war the score for all forms of Japanese ASW (including mines) falls substantially below 1 per month.



But you have to include British and Dutch Subs lost as well..., I said Allied.

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 30
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