Matrix Games Forums

Deal of the Week Pride of NationsTo End All Wars Releasing on Steam! Slitherine is recruiting: Programmers requiredPandora: Eclipse of Nashira gets release dateCommunity impressions of To End All WarsAgeod's To End All Wars is now availableTo End All Wars is now available!Deal of the Week: Field of GloryTo End All Wars: Video, AAR and Interview!Ageod's To End All Wars: Video, AAR and Interview!
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Factors.

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The War Room >> Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Factors. Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Factors. - 10/9/2007 1:35:38 AM   
trollelite

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline
I notice many players abandon their games as soon as their (jap) KB destroyed. This move could be well understood, if not encouraged. Now I want to say something about carrier duel, so you perhaps not lose your KB and game so easily next time.

I don't want to discuss the TF group ways, this has been discussed many times. I just want to mention some basic facts about equipment of both sides, as you, as a newbie, perhaps ignored them.

This article specially aims to Jap player, and the carrier duel before Hellcat into service. And without land-based AC interference, i.e a classic meeting engagement. . I don't conside a case including TBD, since experienced allied players would wait until TBF become available, or replace those flying coffins with marine SBD.


The airplane:

This is most important factors. Carrier without planes are just sitting targets. There are 3 types of planes, torpedo bombers, dive bombers and fighters. Of course there are only torpedo bombers on british carrier.

Japanese Zero is, arguably, the best of early war carrier fighter. Even without bonus it's still better than wildcat and sea hurricane, or sea fire, in the chs. Combined with superior Japanese pilot quality, it could well stand it's position in a fighter vs. fighter duel. But, as we know, things doesn't go this way in a carrier duel, that is to say, your fighters, or enemy fighters, in their CAP mission, always have to deal with not only escort fighters, but also incoming bombers. . In this way Zero show its weakness. Though armed with 20 mm guns, but its accuracy is not very good, this means it could not kill SBD and TBF as effectively as allied fighter dealing with Kate and Val.

So, be attention: You would let many SBD and TBF slipping from CAP even if your CAP enjoy a significent number superior and successfully defeat allied escort fighters while badly maul them. DEFEATING ENEMY ESCORT FIGHTERS DOESN'T MEANS YOUR KB IS SAFE FROM AIR STRIKE.

Allied fighters are quite diffirent. Their armament are more accuracy. The accuracy of .5 browning gun is 29, the british 20mm hispano is 26, while jap gun is only 22. Their performance perhaps not as good as zero, but they still far exceed those of Val and Kate, so for bombers it's the same thing. This fact, combined with their much more heavier armament, 6 x .5 browning in wildcat and 2 Hispano in seafire, means they are far deadlier bomber killers. Especially the US wildcats.

So, as Jap players, you, not like allied players, cannot let your escort fighters defeated. Their defeat means the massacre of your bombers, instead of only a bad maul in allied case.

At this point, we must focus our attention to bombers. Jap bombers , D3A Val or B5N Kate, are with only so so performance. They need strong, and victorious fighter escort. They are little darlings, need careful protection. American planes, the SBD, and later TBF, are wild girls. Not as strong as fighters, they yet can hold their own, to some degree. Even with a weak escort or no escort at all, if Japanese don't deploy an overwelming CAP, (let's say, more than 150 zeros), they still have some chance. Japanese bomber, in the contrary, if unescorted or with a weak escort meeting, let's say, more than 60 wildcat, then they are dead. Nix chance.

So now your say the danger facing Japanese, they need many fighters, both in CAP and escort, but they desperately lack them. We would discuss this later.

Now we suppose those bombers successfully penetrate CAP, no matter how many shot down in the process. Then they begin their bomb run. Now they must face ship AAA, and carrier facing their bombs and torpedos. In this place, Allied side again enjoy some advantages. . Every bombers, except for torpedo bombers in their extended range with bombs instead of torpedos, must face AAA gun 2 times. One is on their assigned altitude, the other is on 2000 feet or 200 feet. Unfortunately, allied AAA, especially in the lower altitude, is far stronger than Jap AAA. And Jap bombers much more fragile. This means fewer your aircrafts could actually release their ordnance, if you and allied player start with the same number attackers.

Now, suppose the bomber does successfully release its bomb or torpedo. Then what happens? Your dive bomber is loaded with 250 kg bombs, allied with 1000lb bombs. Though labeled with "AP", its penetration value is actually lower than allied 1000lb. And it has only 37% damage effect of allied bomb, it's accuracy only as half. They are slight better than 500lb, though. But under most circumstance you have to face allied 1000lb, not 500lb. Now you could see, your percious dive bomber, with so many labor to escort, can actually do much less than allied ones.

And what is about torpedo bombers? Your torpedo bombers still better than allied ones, perhaps mostly because of the terrible dud rate of Mk22 torpedos ( 50% vs. 10% of Jap and british torpedos). So you have edge in this place at least. But allied players could circumvent this problem. He could choose don't load torpedo bombers on his american carriers at all. With their high damage power and accuracy, combined with the fact, that dive bomber hit more accurately than torpedo bombers, means their SBD is more than enough send your KB to bottom. So why bother with those unrealiable torpedo bombers? Allied doesn't need them to deal with your carrier. They need them only when they want to sink your battleships.

In the contrary, your force, need both dive bomber AND torpedo bomber. It's relatively difficult for your torpedo bombers to hit carrier, not to mention destroyers. But after some hits from bombs, how feeble damage effect themselves may be, you find it's much easier for your torpedo bombers to achieve hit.

Now we come to the last point. The ship.

You need many, many fighters to do dual missions of escort and CAP, and you need both D3A and B5N to do the dirty work. So it's a painful thing to watch your proud carrier can only hold up to 72 planes, while allied could hold 90. In CHS this is slight better, but you still in a 84 vs 91 disadvantage, and you have only 4 large carriers, allied have 5. Of course you could overload them to 110%, but allied could do that too. So, the paper superior of japanese in carrier number now reduced, because ship vs. ship, US ones has clear advantage.

British ships cannot load so many aircrafts as americans, but they have another virtue. Their decks are immune to 250 AP bombs. NO PENETRATION POSSIBLE. This means they are damage proof to half of your attack strength. US carriers are not so robust, but they are still well protected. Let's see the deck armor. The lexinton class is 50, and yorktown is 37. Japanese shokaku class and akagi is 50, and kaga is 37, and soryu and hiryu are 25. Others, with 5 or 10 or none at all, are basically the same thing. Their deck armor cannot withstand 500lbs, not to say 1000lbs. A bomb without penetration is meaningless. It cannot do much damage, it cannot make enemy ship easier target for your torpedo bombers. All it may achieve is destroy some Flaks. Believe me, you cannot hope to destroy enough allied Flaks this way....

So we can see Japanese carriers are much more vulnerable. Only the "BIG FOUR" could be considered nearly as good protected as allied ones, The Hiryus cannot hope to deflect 1000lbs, and perhaps have some chance against 500lbs, lesser ones have nix chance against both 1000lb and 500lb. That's to say, an allied bombs hit equals to an allied bomb penetrates, with dire result.

Now comes the last unpleasant thing. The damage effect. If you could make your B5N hit target, then everything is rosy. No ship is torpedo proof. But, as we say, torpedo hit is less frequent than bomb hit, and you need your bomb hit to increase the chance of torpedo hit. Simple to say, you need your bombs hit, and more importantly, to penetrate.

Allied side doesn't need torpedos. With torpedo hits it's better, but even without torpedo the 1000lbs could do work quite effectively. They have a damage effect of 1000, while jap 250kg only 370. With 4 or 5 hit even strongest shokaku are certainly doomed. No aircraft launch possible anymore. If 100 SBD penetrate your CAP, then any carrier in this TF is most possibly out of action. And your, lets say, 50 vals and 50 kates penetrate allied CAP, and he has 4 carriers in that TF, can you hope put them all out of action? NO !!

With enemy still has flight deck while you not, the result of battle doesn't have any uncertainty anymore.


So now you could see, your KB is not all that invincible. Their victories could only come from careful organisation and deployment, not by default. They could perhaps well easily destroy lesser opponnets, but need greatest vigilance when facing their equals, or get a disastrous result.








< Message edited by trollelite -- 10/9/2007 3:18:42 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 10/9/2007 3:10:08 AM   
trollelite

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline
Perhaps you would wonder, why others KB so invincible, and they emerge as victors every time? This is because they are experienced players, old foxes, with all sorts of clever tricks. They know how to organize TF, to maximize their fighter advantage, and to organize an effective combat recon. Those all need experience. And practice, perhaps some bitter lessons, too.  If you don't have these, perhaps it's a good idea not to risk a carrier duel so recklessly.

Allied could replace their losses, you could not. As Napoleon said, they could be defeated 100 times and still remain a king or a prince or a duke. And you get defeated only once then you lose everything. When you ruin your KB, you also ruin your entire game. Be careful !!

(in reply to trollelite)
Post #: 2
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 10/9/2007 9:02:50 AM   
Hoplosternum


Posts: 675
Joined: 6/12/2002
From: Romford, England
Status: offline
Hmmmmmm. Don't really agree from a game point of view.

You don't mention much about uber CAPs or the fact that most of the Japanese CVs (Shokaku, Zuikaku, Akagi & Kaga) cannot be penetrated by 500lbers while all the early war US CVs can be penetrated by 250KGs (in Stock scenarios).

These factors have a huge baring on KBs 'invulnerability' in the early game.

Nor do you mention the coordination penalties for US CVs in a single TF early on in a war (which makes their strikes far more likley to go in smaller groups). Uber CAPs tend to wipeout incomming raids completely. Especially small piecemeal ones.

Nor the Zero bonus early on (although by the time Avengers are there this is gone).

Your analysis would fit more with real life where the Wildcats heavier armament and protection compared to the Zero (and the Dauntless /Avenger better protection compared Kate & Val) meant whatever the relative merits of the two fighters when fighting each other the Wildcat had a clear advantage in pressing home and tyhen shooting down opposing Carrier based bombers.

But in the game the Uber CAP effects of having 50+, or more likely 100+ CAP fighters over KB will obliterate any incomming raid unless it is either very large (unlikely with the coordination penaty the allies have) or the CAP has been exhausted by many previous attacks (usually requires multiple LBA nuisance raids first - but these are excluded by your scenario).

If the CV TFs are more than 3 hexes apart then the Dauntlesses only drop 500lbers which as stated above don't penetrate 4 of the key KB decks. Wildcats cannot escort over 4 (Avengers (dropping useless 500lbers), Kates and Vals (dropping CV killing/disabaling 250KGs) can all strike at 5 hexes). So range is a big help to the IJN. Zeros being able to escort far further.

While the IJN still has experienced aviators on KB the game mechanics make KB a thing to be feared. There are 'tricks' the allies can play to help even things out. With the coordination penalty there is little advantage in the allies having more than 1 CV per TF (just a flak bonus from extra escorts). This limits losses. Plus by mid '42 most US CVs have 90 aircraft and so larger aircraft numbers than each IJN CV. The Avenger certainly is a big upgrade on the Devestator and 36 fighters per CV is very handy for the allied players own uber CAP. Most wise allies try and only fight KB if they can throw in some LBA. Not that it's 500lbers do much but they can often exhaust the Japanese uber CAP. By this I don't mean they kill it or make it run out of ammo (that is not in the game for aircraft), but exploit the game mechanic that CAP forces start to become less effective on each successive fight they have per day whatever their numbers.

The UK CVs are usually a none factor. They are immune to 250KGs, that is true. But they carry too few aircraft and the Swordfish is terribly vulnerable. They are really more akin to Japanese CVLs than the main fleet carriers. Plus having a speed of 30knots soon fall into 5 movers with a bit of operational sys damage from sailing meaning they struggle to operate with US CVs even if you transfer them to the Pacific. The UK CVs will be sunk by the Kate's easily enough and even without the Vals. Though the Japanese must ensure they get in Torpedo range (i.e. 4 hexes).

Finally I don't find I or my opponents quit after losing KB.

You seem to have a downer on the IJs chances. While I don't think they are likely to win the game, the allies are just too strong later, like most WitP players I think that the game makes KB unhistorically strong early on. It doesn't ruin the game by any means. But it is the allies that have to be cautious early on. Perhaps that is no bad thing.

The allies can indeed replace their losses. But if they lose their CVs in mid to late '42 they don't come back until '44. You really want to be advancing before then. And that is tough if KB is still there and you have lost your CVs.

Sorry Trollelite I don't really agree with any of your analysis. KB is not invincible, but its a lot tougher than the allied CVs in most of '42 and its the game rather than real life that makes it so IMHO.

(in reply to trollelite)
Post #: 3
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 10/9/2007 2:10:21 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6587
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline
I think Trollelite gives a reasonable analysis of the historical situation, but it doesn't fully reflect the "alternate reality" that WitP is (esp in PBEM).  My advice to Japanese players is to keep "the big stick" together.  If you split it up, you invite the Allied player to concentrate his CVs and take you on separately.  Not that the Allied player is guarenteed success if he takes that match-up.  But he -can- succeed vs. split-up IJN carriers.

Keeping KB (and/or mega-KB) together will in all likelihood fend off anything the Allies can throw until about October 42 (assuming you don't go into heavy LBA and Allied CVs at once).  Starting in about Nov 42, there is very close to parity and you're as likely to get as good as you give.  But thru the Summer of 42, if you keep your CVs together, the USN at least shouldn't be gunning for a fight.

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to Hoplosternum)
Post #: 4
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 10/9/2007 3:45:44 PM   
Milman

 

Posts: 264
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Serbia
Status: offline
quote:

I notice many players abandon their games as soon as their (jap) KB destroyed. This move could be well understood, if not encouraged.


I don't understand this . This is probably becouse of unexperienced players who thinks that main weapon of Japan is KB . KB is important for Japan in first few months when Japan needs air cover for landings . Afther that their only use is to inflict maximum damage to allies before they are all sunk .

When i play with Allies biggest danger for my units is from Japan LBA . And Betty/Nell is only one weapon which prevent me from big push from mid 1942 . KB can't defeat Allies in this game so i don't think that loosing KB is good reason for abandoning game .

(in reply to trollelite)
Post #: 5
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 10/9/2007 6:06:35 PM   
cavalry

 

Posts: 1851
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Blackboys East Sussex UK
Status: offline
In my game now in march 43 stock/pdu all cv are intact except one Jap CVL sunk allies have lost 4BB + 2 Damaged and 7 CA sunk , to my 0 BB and 3 CA - so I am stronger on the surface but lack DD ( we have both lost a lot ) .

So tell me thoughts on 43

My priorities

Get the best flak ships possible forget speed Huyga and Ise ( flak monsters ) in 140 days

I will fight the allies only where LBA is out of range or low effect and i have some LRCAP , try to have 70+ Nell or Betty within range as well .

I am training all pilots ( in combat in China ) to 75+ exp

Make sure I am within reasonable distance ( 8 hexes or so ) of a size 3 port with AR and HQ

Make sure I have enough recon to see the allied CV every turn .

make sure there are about 15 subs hovering round allied possible positions ( got one fire at the wasp this way but missed ) and subs in the way of limping allied CV !

Michael


(in reply to Milman)
Post #: 6
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 10/10/2007 5:00:16 AM   
trollelite

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline
Think you gentlemen are all somewhat too confident.  I have no intention to discuss history situations. Everyone knows midway. And we all know it could hardly happen in this game, at least not that way.  No, the game already gives Japanese unusual advantage, i.e they can deploy most of their CAP fighters effectively, what Japanese in history cannot do. But, despite that there are still guys getting their KB destroyed, and dare I say, in most cases in some rather stupid ways.

I myself destroy such a KB in my game.   6 (including 2 british cv) vs. 6 ( PH team),  early 1942, before british squadrons change to more advanced fighters. It's simply too easy to ambush and kill KB from an inexperienced player. 

(in reply to cavalry)
Post #: 7
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 10/10/2007 5:05:08 AM   
trollelite

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

In my game now in march 43 stock/pdu all cv are intact except one Jap CVL sunk allies have lost 4BB + 2 Damaged and 7 CA sunk , to my 0 BB and 3 CA - so I am stronger on the surface but lack DD ( we have both lost a lot ) .

So tell me thoughts on 43



If I am your opponent, I would wait to autumn to deliver major blast. Then, it's not ambush your KB, it's more to do with force her to a battle and destroy her by superior number and aircrafts.

If I want to ambush your KB, I would do it in summer 1942, after I got all early war CV, and (best) before you change to A6M3a

< Message edited by trollelite -- 10/10/2007 5:08:22 AM >

(in reply to cavalry)
Post #: 8
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 10/10/2007 8:48:17 AM   
Barb


Posts: 1612
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Slovakia
Status: offline
My opponent launched invasion against Port Moresby (3divs+brigade) covered by at least 8 carriers (Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku, Ziukaku, Junyo, Rjudzo). I have 4 carriers at this time (Enterprise, Hornet, Yorktown, Lexington) and Wasp will come in a days (its late june 1942). Even if I had Saratoga (sunk) and Wasp i would not risk them against the KB. This made me unable to check whatever action supported by KB until I get some Essexes and CVLs (late 1943).
I hate it :o) I would like to enjoy some battles with less then 4 vs 4. Of course this will result in a attritition war which Japan cannot win.

PS: for my luck, I had an Aussie division in PM (fort 6), and I got there 32nd US infantry division whole absolutely untouched (both are 100% prepped), and believe me, Japs are not having an easy time there. Only CA Australia had 55 sys 82 flt 1fire 3hexes of Cooktown) after it cleared the way for 32nd.


_____________________________


"Hello IT. Have you tried turning it off and on again?"

(in reply to trollelite)
Post #: 9
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 10/10/2007 2:14:17 PM   
trollelite

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline
Your opponent takes a great risk if he not sends ALL his carriers there . If you concentrate all your CV (including british ones) he could be in trouble.

(in reply to Barb)
Post #: 10
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 10/10/2007 2:45:45 PM   
Barb


Posts: 1612
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Slovakia
Status: offline
No possibility to make it as:
BEF is based in Colombo
Lexington is repairing after upgrade (6.42), US West coast
Enterprise, Hornet, Yorktown near Pearl Harbor.
Wasp off map.
= 0 carrier in the area.
All US carriers still had 24:36:18 ratio.
All US carriers had TBD Devastator as a torpedo bomber.
All UK carriers had Seahurricanes as fighters.
Port Moresby runways out of action, because of LBA from Rabaul and carriers.
Milne Bay airfield size 3 (every level bomber will carry reduced load) and only 30 AV support.
Portland Roads size 1 (built just the day his carriers retreated).


_____________________________


"Hello IT. Have you tried turning it off and on again?"

(in reply to trollelite)
Post #: 11
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 10/10/2007 4:02:11 PM   
trollelite

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline
Perhaps you should upgrade your carrier in aus and NZ port? Or your house rule forbids it? You don't need FAA to help you defend ceylon. Concentrate force and keep them " in being".

(in reply to Barb)
Post #: 12
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 10/10/2007 4:41:27 PM   
Mistmatz

 

Posts: 1396
Joined: 10/16/2005
Status: offline
The repair yards in Australia an NZ are nowhere near to allow an efficient upgrade of capital ships like BB and CV.

In CHS the largest repair yards are San Francisco, PH, LA and Seattle. Any other yard will take considerably longer, if at all possible. I believe in stock the situation is similar.

(in reply to trollelite)
Post #: 13
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 10/10/2007 5:11:29 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6587
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline
Well, you -can- upgrade at a smaller repair yard.  But once you take the sys dmg hit, it takes a while to repair it.  just to clarify

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to Mistmatz)
Post #: 14
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 10/10/2007 5:23:53 PM   
trollelite

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline
A carrier with 15 sys damage 1000 miles from battlefront is better than a brand new one half an earth from there. Remember what they do to Enterprise in 1942? She should have a dockyard time long ago before she actually got it.

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 15
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 10/10/2007 5:53:58 PM   
Mistmatz

 

Posts: 1396
Joined: 10/16/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: trollelite

A carrier with 15 sys damage 1000 miles from battlefront is better than a brand new one half an earth from there. Remember what they do to Enterprise in 1942? She should have a dockyard time long ago before she actually got it.



Actually from my gut feeling I'd prefer a low SYS damaged CV (say 1-5) over a SYS15 damaged one with a higher upgrade level. I believe it will perform better than the damaged one, but I cant prove that. Anyone around who has some experience in this regard?

(in reply to trollelite)
Post #: 16
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 10/10/2007 8:15:43 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6587
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline
It depends on the upgrade.

The March 42 upgrade of Enterprise is "somethign" but not outstanding as I recall.  But it's not like the major flak refit of 10-42.  For the march (or is it July) refit, "I get to it, when I get to it".

I don't think a refit on a CV will put you into 15+ sys (you have to have sys = 3 or less to take the refit, and then it adds about 5 points, which is still less than 10 obviously).  But something like a DD will jump to 15ish after a refit, and -that- can make a difference.

Aside from a 15% reduction in your speed (sys dmg directly reduces your speed by that percentage), a sys with 15 sys dmg has a higher detection level than one with less than 10 sys.  If you can help it, never a put a ship in your TF with 10 or more sys, because your TF is that much easier to spot.

The direct answer to the question is, "it depends on the upgrade" and "it better be a d_mn good upgrade and I better have a d_mn good reason if it means that I've got to sorty with 15 sys dmg" and "it's not likely a CV would have 15 sys dmg after an upgrade, but you'd probably see something like that on the likes of a destroyer".

-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 10/10/2007 8:19:31 PM >


_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to Mistmatz)
Post #: 17
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 10/11/2007 4:28:21 AM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4132
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Just over there.
Status: offline
This is all very relevant for stock WitP, but in mods - not necessarily. I can't speak for Nik-Mod (though I know it's quite different than stock), and CHS keeps pretty much to stock aircraft stats.

But I will warn players that CV engagements in B-Mod are different than stock. First of all, allied 500lbr bombs have a good chance of penetrating 2" deck armor on CA's and CV's - as they did in real life (as well as Japanese 256kg APs doing a bit more damage than stock).
Secondly, the Zero Bonus will not give you one-sided air results. Zeros still start with a 30-40 experience advantage over land-based air, but the experience advantage over USN CV fighter squadrons is only a couple of points ...insignificant. In 1942, neither side will have enough CV fighters to provide escort and a bullet-proof CAP, so the attackers will get through to strike. Furthermore, the Wildcat has enough firepower and durability to go 1:1 with Zeros (with USN high experience pilots).

So it will all come down to luck and numbers, as it was in real life. This means that CV battles (if competently managed by both sides) will be exchanges, a situation that the American can afford - but the Japanese cannot - also like real life.

So, everyone must be wary of how you spend your carriers...

B

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 18
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 10/11/2007 11:38:37 AM   
Barb


Posts: 1612
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Slovakia
Status: offline
I am Playing a BigB mod actually.
1. Squadron resizing is on 1st july 1942 i think? (its half of the year)
2. Lex was damaged earlier by few bombs on the same action saratoga was sunk, so the sys dmg is that dmg+upgrade dmg.
3. Sydney had 50 repairyards, Melbourne 15, Auckland 15. With all Australian, NZ and Dutch fleet to support it is bit short (2xCA, 10xCL, 15x DD)
4. ARs and ASs are fully overloaded with repairs of AKs, APs, TKs in SF, 6 old BBs in Seattle, 9 SS in PH and SD, 4 ARs, 4 ADs are on their way to support my fleets in South Pacific.
5. I was taken by surprise no asigint poining on PM.
6. British CVs were in action in Indian ocean in past weeks (thanks to asigint they made Rangoon and north Sumatra amphibious landing bit costlier to Japs, covered two evacuations), so they have also some minor sys dmg.
7. Wasp is still not on Map, North Carolina (future part of Wasps TF arrived to Panama in days he was already in operation).

I think the best i was able to do if Eneterprise, Yorktown and Hornet were in the area is to loose them for nothing.
I want to risk my carriers. But not on foolish terms!

PS: Trollelite dont you mean Yorktown? Damaged in coral sea, three days in PH and sail to Midway. (Repairs would normally take 3 months)
PS2: I know about concentration of forces doctrine. And also about "who defends everything, will deefend nothing". Im concentrating to defend vital points for buildups. I have read Sun-Tzu, Clausewitz, about Napoleons battles and strategy because i like military history. I also know how to "starve failrue and reinforce success." Just now I am in phase of starving failrue (allied from the begining of the war). Time for reinforce success will come with more ships, planes, units and Aviation support.

My first reply was about that allies are not in very good position if trying to meet KB as trollelite write in his first post.


_____________________________


"Hello IT. Have you tried turning it off and on again?"

(in reply to Big B)
Post #: 19
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 10/11/2007 3:56:40 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6587
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline
quote:

This means that CV battles (if competently managed by both sides)... are...exchanges, a situation that the American can afford - but the Japanese cannot - also like real life.

So, everyone must be wary of how you spend your carriers...


My sentiments exactly (altho I carry it to Stock and CHS). As an Allied player, the question is "Will a forthcoming battle allow me a (probably) even rate of exchange against KB." I can replace, Japan cannot.

As my first forray as Japanese player (relying heavily on my experience as Allies), losing KB is not a matter of 'if' so much as a matter of 'when'. Even if don't -actually- lose KB, you lose it's -effectiveness- in late 43 with Allied LBA dominance and the full implementation of Hellcats and Corsairs. You can still do battle with KB, but you won't get the same 'exchange rate' vs. Allied CVs in late 43 as you would in say, summer of 42. Best to make 'favorable exchanges' say, in Summer of 42 if the opportunity presents itself, than a lesser exchange in late 43. Yes, having KB around as a threat is useful, I'm not disagreeing with that. But as time goes on, even if KB is intact, it becomes -less- of a threat because Allied air dominance. The trick it to find the "threat apogee" (basically the height of your strike potential), and to somehow force an engament during that time. If you are able to take advantage of the "threat apogee", you can hopefully gain maximum exchange for KB (as you'll likely suffer -some- losses), and -still- have something left over as your fleet in being and for the next battle when KB is past it's prime (and you get lesser 'exchanges'). At least that's what I intend to do...

(* scowls at Bilbow *)

-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 10/11/2007 4:00:22 PM >


_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to Big B)
Post #: 20
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 12/28/2007 11:42:34 PM   
madgamer2

 

Posts: 1235
Joined: 11/24/2004
Status: offline
Funny you should mention Midway. On the exact day in history of the attack the Jap AI launched the same basic attack against me at midway. I had built up the island to something like 140 Fig.,40 Bombers several PBY's. There was at least 1 Div of inf.,several eng., and several Art., as well as 2CD units.
Like history he lost all 4 CV's and further south he tried to land on an island that had a surface fleet with 3 old BB,several CA and DD's and the old BB sunk 3 IJN CA"s and damaged another. A good Jap player would not make the same mistake in the game but I found this situation rather funny if not historically accurate.

Lawrence

(in reply to trollelite)
Post #: 21
RE: Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Fac... - 12/31/2007 8:45:54 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 7133
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
Ideally, assuming a trade off of sunken ships, would it not be better for the Allies to engage KB as soon as possible? Say 8/42 instead of 11/42? If you both lose five or six carriers and the Allies get theirs back, would it not be better to make the exchange earlier than later?

I say this because to delay fighting KB allows the Japanese player more flexibility in operations such as raiding sea lanes. Eventually Allied land air units hold the line but the sooner KB is damaged the sooner major Japanese offensive operations become impractible-even if the Allies do not have the use of carriers themselves.



_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to madgamer2)
Post #: 22
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The War Room >> Don't endanger your KB unnecessarily: Facts and Factors. Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.102