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NF - 9/12/2007 4:37:03 PM   
vils

 

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I am playing orginal Btr, but after 40 turns and hundreds of nightmissions, my nightfirgters still doesnt shoot at anything more than on occasion german planes trying to land.. Game says my mosquitos detects german planes alot, but *never* intercepts.. This acually needs to be tweaked, as it is now night intruder issions to help the bomberstream during night is 100% useless. Atleast let me scrap those planes in all and use the rawmaterials for other planes :P


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RE: NF - 9/12/2007 4:47:18 PM   
Terminus


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Night fighter missions are NOT "useless" in any way. Either you're setting them wrong, or are very unlucky (or both).

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RE: NF - 9/12/2007 5:10:05 PM   
Hard Sarge


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just to be sure, term, NFs are escourt don't do much in the old game, while NI do wonders

but overall, NFs are much more "useful" or at least in the tests I ran


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RE: NF - 9/12/2007 6:13:14 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

just to be sure, term, NFs are escourt don't do much in the old game, while NI do wonders



Actually, I've seen the exact opposite: escorts have worked well, while night intruders have proven too difficult for me to place and time to achieve much. YMMV...

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RE: NF - 9/12/2007 6:49:06 PM   
von Shagmeister


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In my experience, in the old game Allied nightfighters in and around the bomber stream achieve little whilist those orbiting active A/Fs are too effective if they catch returning a/c.

Allied nightfighters in the stream now perform better, but intruders over A/Fs still shootdown a/c like clockwork (though this is also related to returning a/c not being able to divert to nearby A/Fs when there is known intruder activity over their home base)

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RE: NF - 9/12/2007 7:33:17 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: von Shagmeister

In my experience, in the old game Allied nightfighters in and around the bomber stream achieve little whilist those orbiting active A/Fs are too effective if they catch returning a/c.

Allied nightfighters in the stream now perform better, but intruders over A/Fs still shootdown a/c like clockwork (though this is also related to returning a/c not being able to divert to nearby A/Fs when there is known intruder activity over their home base)


Seconded!

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RE: NF - 9/17/2007 12:01:58 PM   
soeren01

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

quote:

ORIGINAL: von Shagmeister

In my experience, in the old game Allied nightfighters in and around the bomber stream achieve little whilist those orbiting active A/Fs are too effective if they catch returning a/c.

Allied nightfighters in the stream now perform better, but intruders over A/Fs still shootdown a/c like clockwork (though this is also related to returning a/c not being able to divert to nearby A/Fs when there is known intruder activity over their home base)


Seconded!



Thirded ???

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RE: NF - 9/19/2007 12:16:22 PM   
vils

 

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Thanks for you opinions.. But there is acually a bug i would say (and not a feature heh), meaning when my NF's do detect enemies (read axis) then they NEVER act, i mean, 0 times out of 100's of reports. Therefore i wonder if this message is just eyecandy and has no effect in the game at all. So every second night i send out all i got (is that 300 mosquitos?) Gets some 25-30 reports they detect bf-110's etc with their radars, and then just return to their static navigation. Well..

Hope this thingie could be tweaked when EDBTR is finished.

Or else.. you guys that woudl say they do react, can you maybe tell me exactly how yopu plot them, altitute etc? And i dont mean airfield hovering, im speaking of fighters going 2 and from target in the mist of the bomber-stream.

Cheers


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RE: NF - 9/19/2007 6:12:17 PM   
Hard Sarge


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I am getting kills with my NFs in the stream

alot of times it is going to be luck of the roll, not every time you spot something, do you get a good attack, but it is working better then the old one used to


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RE: NF - 9/20/2007 10:58:01 AM   
vils

 

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Good to know :) Thanks sarge!


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RE: NF - 9/20/2007 3:47:01 PM   
Hard Sarge


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okay just to show

I ran a few days of night raids, and placed the GB NFs into the stream only

after 3 days here are the pilots

(which in this battle there are not many NFs around for BC to work with)






Attachment (1)

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RE: NF - 9/20/2007 8:36:08 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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Yes, but using Lancasters and Halifaxes as NF is gamey!

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RE: NF - 9/20/2007 8:52:37 PM   
Hard Sarge


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Anvil and Hammer




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RE: NF - 10/6/2007 9:54:06 PM   
medaloffairness

 

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Dear folks,

I am following the progress of the development of the game with patience... thanks to swift and fochinell for posting their AAR of their game. I read them every time when I enter the forum .

I also have to thank swift for providing me a link to a german forum, which also deals with btr. Swift did a great job with hosting and answering all the questions from the addicted crowd. Unfortunatly the forum seems to be dead since the end of 2006.
I read all the threads and two things seems to be important to mention, which were also discussed in this forums.

1.) It seems that the pilots only gain experience by shooting down planes, but not for just being in combat. Hmm..
Hopefully this is fixed in the new version because this wouldn`t be realistic. I thought about some arguements which would prefer not increasing the experience of the pilots, but none of them sounds really satisfying for me.

2.) I know I come with a topic which I have allready mentioned before...
But as the team is putting that much effort in designing the night fighters and intruders on the allied side, I am still wondering why german night fighters are not allowed to attack landing british bombers. I know that the bad guy in Berlin prohibited it in 1941 and the Operation Gissela was too late and too little but there are still some arguements to have it in the game. (Sorry Hard Sarge )

The first arguement is that it doesn`t really matter that the bad guy prohibited it. If we would follow someone rules in the game than some more tactics -Allied fighters have to stick to the bombers till the beginning of 1944, when Mr. Doolittle gave the order to attack the Luftwaffe and to hunt them down-. Hmm... but it seems that the possibility to do this is available earlier? So, where is the difference?
In the game it is possible to produce some type of planes earlier than in reality, so why not a tactic?. the Do335 which is used by some players as their prefered fighter never took of for combat in reality.
I think this is the thing which really make this game really the best game so far among other strategy games with the same scope. We are playing in an realistic environment, but can influence on a stratigical and tactical basis what will happen.
I hope someone who read my thread will understand why I am wondering that this is not in the game. I think it would be an additional challange for the allied and the axis player, because then the mossies also have to defend their homebases. It would be nice if I could hear some pros and cons related to this topic.

3.) I also read in some books that one tactic of the B17 boxes was to have one B17 among them which carried less or no bombs but were full of machine guns. I have seen a photo of this kind of B17 but I read their were only a little amount in combat. Does anyone have info about them?

Have a nice weekend,

Regards Chris




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RE: NF - 10/6/2007 10:05:03 PM   
swift


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quote:

I also have to thank swift for providing me a link to a german forum, which also deals with btr. Swift did a great job with hosting and answering all the questions from the addicted crowd. Unfortunatly the forum seems to be dead since the end of 2006.
I read all the threads and two things seems to be important to mention, which were also discussed in this forums.


most of the people there are longtime gamers of BoB/BtR and there are not often people who are new to the game.
and I can only answer to questions if someone posts them there

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RE: NF - 10/6/2007 10:08:01 PM   
swift


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1 it is different now, but how different it will be in the final version is not quite clear to me ( maybe Ron wants to answer that )

2 there are ways.......

3 those gunships proved not to be the best protection at all....escorts were the better way to go

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RE: NF - 10/6/2007 10:12:45 PM   
medaloffairness

 

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Yeah swift, You did/do a great job.

1.this would be nice...

2. Can I patrol nearby enemy bases with german nightfighters? Hard Sarge said, that it will not be possible...

3. agreed, but it would be funny if the allied player could have two or three of them, because it would be a surprise for the german fighters.

Thanks for prompt reply..

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RE: NF - 10/6/2007 10:13:37 PM   
swift


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quote:

... thanks to swift and fochinell for posting their AAR of their game. I read them every time when I enter the forum .


this PBEM is still with 1.05x6 exe and an OBOA by JCL....the new version will be a much different game in many aspects
more different A/C with much more specifc charactaristics ( altitude is important....not everything has the optimum alt.... )
a huge industry ( most errors in that section may be come from me )
a very different production due to more different A/Cs and the different industrial base
and much more
many of the old bugs have been eliminated or weakened

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RE: NF - 10/6/2007 10:20:09 PM   
swift


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quote:

2. Can I patrol nearby enemy bases with german nightfighters? Hard Sarge said, that it will not be possible...


a) sometimes a NF pilot or even a unit will follow the enemy bombers deep into the UK before they turn to patrol mode
b) you can move a patrolling unit in the direction of friendly territory....with some training you are able to patrol over certain stretches of the UK or over southern Itlay ( here it is easier )
but you need two things - 1 good timing - and 2 A/C with a very long leg ( so no He219, Me110 )

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RE: NF - 10/6/2007 10:23:21 PM   
medaloffairness

 

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I knew that you are playing the "old" one... If you would have the new one then I think it would  just take me 15 minutes to find out where you live. Then it would take me another 15 minutes to get there and beg on my knees and a lot of money in my hand to get it.

So, do you have any cons for the german night fighters over Britain? And would you be so kind and tell me how it works, without actually having it in the game (!?!)

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RE: NF - 10/6/2007 10:26:38 PM   
swift


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quote:

ORIGINAL: medaloffairness

I knew that you are playing the "old" one... If you would have the new one then I think it would  just take me 15 minutes to find out where you live. Then it would take me another 15 minutes to get there and beg on my knees and a lot of money in my hand to get it.
sm=00000506.gif]


I am one of the beta testers.....so.....I do have the new version

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RE: NF - 10/6/2007 10:28:25 PM   
swift


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quote:

ORIGINAL: medaloffairness

So, do you have any cons for the german night fighters over Britain? And would you be so kind and tell me how it works, without actually having it in the game (!?!)


quote:

quote:

2. Can I patrol nearby enemy bases with german nightfighters? Hard Sarge said, that it will not be possible...


a) sometimes a NF pilot or even a unit will follow the enemy bombers deep into the UK before they turn to patrol mode
b) you can move a patrolling unit in the direction of friendly territory....with some training you are able to patrol over certain stretches of the UK or over southern Itlay ( here it is easier )
but you need two things - 1 good timing - and 2 A/C with a very long leg ( so no He219, Me110 )

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RE: NF - 10/6/2007 10:28:28 PM   
medaloffairness

 

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Thanks... this seems to work..

Hmmm. then I think it would not that complex to get this into the game as a real tactic, because you would "just" (maybe not the right expression) let the night fighters follow the british bombers to their landing bases... Hard Sarge ? What is your opinion?

Regards Chris

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RE: NF - 10/6/2007 10:30:55 PM   
medaloffairness

 

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Ah---give me 30 minutes...

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RE: NF - 10/6/2007 11:04:39 PM   
Hard Sarge


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I am answering as I read, so, if Swift or someone else already replied, sorry :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: medaloffairness

Dear folks,

I am following the progress of the development of the game with patience... thanks to swift and fochinell for posting their AAR of their game. I read them every time when I enter the forum .

I also have to thank swift for providing me a link to a german forum, which also deals with btr. Swift did a great job with hosting and answering all the questions from the addicted crowd. Unfortunatly the forum seems to be dead since the end of 2006.
I read all the threads and two things seems to be important to mention, which were also discussed in this forums.

1.) It seems that the pilots only gain experience by shooting down planes, but not for just being in combat. Hmm..
Hopefully this is fixed in the new version because this wouldn`t be realistic. I thought about some arguements which would prefer not increasing the experience of the pilots, but none of them sounds really satisfying for me.

No that is wrong, in the old game, pilots in combat gained, I forget the rules, but just flying could gain you exp (if you were below a level, once over that level, then you needed combat to gain), I don't know if the posts are still up on the old forum, but I ran alot of tests on this one, being in combat could gain, shooting down a plane, should gain, making a attack that misses could gain you, being attacked and getting away, could gain you, I seen cases where a pilots with no kills, got 3 points of Exp, while a pilot who shot down a plane gained 1 point, so in the long run, being in a combat unit that does good and living for a while, gives you a pretty good chance of becoming a good/better pilot



2.) I know I come with a topic which I have allready mentioned before...
But as the team is putting that much effort in designing the night fighters and intruders on the allied side, I am still wondering why german night fighters are not allowed to attack landing british bombers. I know that the bad guy in Berlin prohibited it in 1941 and the Operation Gissela was too late and too little but there are still some arguements to have it in the game. (Sorry Hard Sarge )

don't forget, most people complained that there were too many CW nightfighters in the game to start with, what they forget, is not all of the units are in, there were even more units and they were tasked with flying defence patrols, you got to remember there was plenty of action still going on, and in the long run, most of it was bad for the LW units, the baby blitz and stuff like that

but the biggest hassle to adding stuff like that, is the Allied player can not react to it



The first arguement is that it doesn`t really matter that the bad guy prohibited it. If we would follow someone rules in the game than some more tactics -Allied fighters have to stick to the bombers till the beginning of 1944, when Mr. Doolittle gave the order to attack the Luftwaffe and to hunt them down-. Hmm... but it seems that the possibility to do this is available earlier? So, where is the difference?

well, in fact, when Gen Doolittle gave the order, it was a little different and we can not do so in the game yet, he let the fighters loose, they were not held to close escourt tactics, he allowed them to roam, they could get out in front of the raid, they could swing out to the sides, and once there time on target was over, they could drop to the deck and go hunting, that stuff we still can not do yet

In the game it is possible to produce some type of planes earlier than in reality, so why not a tactic?. the Do335 which is used by some players as their prefered fighter never took of for combat in reality.
I think this is the thing which really make this game really the best game so far among other strategy games with the same scope. We are playing in an realistic environment, but can influence on a stratigical and tactical basis what will happen.
I hope someone who read my thread will understand why I am wondering that this is not in the game. I think it would be an additional challange for the allied and the axis player, because then the mossies also have to defend their homebases. It would be nice if I could hear some pros and cons related to this topic.

3.) I also read in some books that one tactic of the B17 boxes was to have one B17 among them which carried less or no bombs but were full of machine guns. I have seen a photo of this kind of B17 but I read their were only a little amount in combat. Does anyone have info about them?

that would be the YB-17, but the trouble was they were heavy and slow, which while the bomb armed 17s were close to the same speed with bombs, once the bombs were dropped, they were much faster and didn't want to hang around to let the YBs keep up, they only flew a few missions

Have a nice weekend,

Regards Chris


Keep talking, keep asking or debateing, I got a open mind :)




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RE: NF - 10/6/2007 11:37:39 PM   
medaloffairness

 

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Thanks for the reply Hard Sarge,

Ad 1.) As I said, I read that this in the forum I mentionend, it is great to hear that it is not the case... Then I will take care of my Hungarian pilots :-)

Ad 2.) Hmm... the hassle  is that the allied pilot can not react... do they have to?
If a squadron runs out of fuel, get damaged or got the order to return it will land at its homebase, regardless of the fact that maybe tons of day fighters patrol or night fighters patrol over the base. In this case even the axis player can do little against it, exept closing his eyes and beg for a wonder cause the pilots are very likely to be dead when they are shot down.
As an allied player I would calculate the time when the night bombers will return to their base an set a patrol over their bases in order to attack the german night intruders (it would be the same like patroling over the german bases) in the planning phase.
Maybe AA Guns are another topic... because if daylight comes up, of course german night intruders have only a small chance to come home... but this is the risk the german player has to take and cancel the missions when daylight is coming up.
A tactical measure against such german raids would be that the allied player tries to set the time of attacking german targets as late in the night as possible, so there is the chance to cross the channel when daylight is growing (?), but then probably the wilde sau of the germans will be more succesfull if the allied player didn`t calculate times right. Ah... this would be nice... for the Allied and the Axis player...

3.) Oh, thanks for info. Sounds logical for me... The germans did the same with some U-boats (They had 3 big AA guns on deck and were thought to be a trap for Sunderlands and Liberators which were hunting them).. and suffered very high losses

I`m open minded too... thanks for giving me the audience to post my thoughts.

Best Regards Chris



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RE: NF - 10/7/2007 1:45:22 AM   
Hard Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: medaloffairness

Thanks for the reply Hard Sarge,

Ad 1.) As I said, I read that this in the forum I mentionend, it is great to hear that it is not the case... Then I will take care of my Hungarian pilots :-)

keep them alive and they should do well, they got some good pilots to start with :)



Ad 2.) Hmm... the hassle is that the allied pilot can not react... do they have to?

not the pilot, the player


If a squadron runs out of fuel, get damaged or got the order to return it will land at its homebase, regardless of the fact that maybe tons of day fighters patrol or night fighters patrol over the base. In this case even the axis player can do little against it, exept closing his eyes and beg for a wonder cause the pilots are very likely to be dead when they are shot down.
As an allied player I would calculate the time when the night bombers will return to their base an set a patrol over their bases in order to attack the german night intruders (it would be the same like patroling over the german bases) in the planning phase.
Maybe AA Guns are another topic... because if daylight comes up, of course german night intruders have only a small chance to come home... but this is the risk the german player has to take and cancel the missions when daylight is coming up.
A tactical measure against such german raids would be that the allied player tries to set the time of attacking german targets as late in the night as possible, so there is the chance to cross the channel when daylight is growing (?), but then probably the wilde sau of the germans will be more succesfull if the allied player didn`t calculate times right. Ah... this would be nice... for the Allied and the Axis player...

but that is the hassle, now we adding 30-40 more plotted missions a day for the Allied player, and then you got all of the Allied AA that should be set up, along with all of the radar sites, not to mention the rest of the night fighters that are kept out of the game, that are suppost to be on defence patrol missions to stop this from happening

which over all, I think BC poor landing skills, do much more damage to the end of the raids then a chance Intruder getting into place



3.) Oh, thanks for info. Sounds logical for me... The germans did the same with some U-boats (They had 3 big AA guns on deck and were thought to be a trap for Sunderlands and Liberators which were hunting them).. and suffered very high losses

I`m open minded too... thanks for giving me the audience to post my thoughts.

Best Regards Chris






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RE: NF - 10/7/2007 3:51:39 PM   
medaloffairness

 

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Hi Sarge,

ad 2.)

Yes, I meant the player, not the pilot... sorry I mixed it up.
I agree that this implementation would mean a lot of work and it would be hardly possible to implement it with all the AAR guns and Radar. The Radar sites aren`t really the problem from my point of view, because the german can`t attack them anyway in this game (btr). So, every german plane which flies above a certain altitude and crosses the channel is supposed to be detected by the british radar. There is an hassle with it, too, because it could be hard to distinguish between a night fighter which flies among landing british bombers and the british bombers themselves (But I think, in the forum are some players who have read a lot of materials about radar detection)
The next problem, which means that the British Command (player) can not react like the axis player, can probably be solved by giving the British night patrol fighters the chance to switch from patroling to interception automaticaly when a detected (!) german night intruder is flying within a certain range from the patroling unit. Maybe then it will also be possible for the british night fighter to follow the german night fighters till he crosses the channel again and lose the support of their radars.
But I agree it would probably take to much time to implement this feature in the new release. And I think all other followers and fans of the game would not be very friendly to me when my suggestion would lead to a postponement of the release of two months...

Hmm... but I think it is worth it two discuss it and probably find a simple way to implement it with the current mechanics of the game without harming the balance and the attempt to reach a certain kind of reality.

Best Regards,

Chris

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 28
RE: NF - 10/7/2007 4:29:38 PM   
Hard Sarge


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it is something for down the road

also, remember, the idea of IFF is not new, and was in use during WWII by both sides

trouble was, who was asking if you were friendly or not




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RE: NF - 10/7/2007 8:58:29 PM   
SireChaos

 

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Since we´re asking questions... I have two of my own.

4. How many replacement pilots does each side get per day? I cannot find the information in the manual.

5. How does research into new plane types work (for the Axies), and when can I expect the new plane types to arrive?


And a comment regarding LW raids on Allied airfields... sure, the Allied player cannot react to that - however, he COULD detail squadrons to defensive patrols during the planning phase, and these squadrons could then react according to a pre-determined doctrine when German planes approach. On the other hand, I agree that this would break the whole asymmetrical model of gameplay.

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