Greatest military/political leaders in history?

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Halsey
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Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by Halsey »

My list...

Cyrus the Great
Alexander
Julius Caesar
Charlemagne
William of Normandy
Genghis Khan
Frederick the Great
George Washington
Napoleon
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ilovestrategy
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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by ilovestrategy »

Your list pretty well sums up how I feel. Cyrus and Alexander were both top notch!
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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by madorosh »

"Show me a hero, and I'll prove he's a bum." - Gregory "Pappy" Boyington, Baa Baa Black Sheep

George Washington - Privately emancipated slaves but never expressed opposition to slavery publicly. Had 317 slaves on the rolls at the time of his death. Of nine major battles he fought as a military commander, he lost six of them - a 66.67% loss rate. Of course, most influential figures - "great men" if you will - are generally more than a sum of their individual achievements.
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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by Halsey »

Leaders that have both political and military skills are very rare for humanity.[;)]

I would have loved to have lived during the reign of Octavian/Augustus.
As long as I was a Roman Citizen, and not a slave.[;)]

Any others that need to be included, or discarded from the list?

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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by freder »

Suleiman the Lawgiver/Magnificent

Oh, and Marcus Aurelius, off course!
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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by SireChaos »

On the political side, Otto von Bismarck (the "Iron Chancellor") was quite a ruthless bastard, but I´ll have to admit he was extraordinarily competent.
Besides that... Cardinal Richelieu, Emperor Constantine, Churchill...
 
On the military side, I think the Byzantine general Belisarius needs to be mentioned. In the early 6th century he re-conquered much of the former West Roman Empire from the barbarians.
Others... Hannibal, Scipio Africanus, Rommel (as with Bismarck, you don´t have to LIKE him...) ...
 
As for people with military AND political skills, there are indeed few. Gaius Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great come to mind. Maybe Charlemagne, Gustav Adolph II, Arminius...
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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by madorosh »

ORIGINAL: SireChaos
Others... Rommel (as with Bismarck, you don´t have to LIKE him...) ...

That was the same Rommel who lost the entire African continent, battered his brains out at Tobruk, basically used up his Italian allies in order to preserve his ethnic German forces, never set foot in the big league (Eastern Front), was proven completely wrong in his concept of defending Normandy (only one amphibious assault in the history of warfare was ever turned back at the water's edge, and it certainly wasn't in France), and then took the coward's way out in hopes of sparing his place in history?

I guess Rommel was an okay infantry company commander and did well as a headquarters guard, and as an armoured division commander did well in France - but was obviously promoted past his level of competence since he doesn't seem to have accomplished too terribly much after 1941 except when his opposition was inexperienced or completely outclassed as at, say, Kasserine.

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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by ezzler »

I always thought Runstead { and Hitler even more so  } was proved wrong at Normandy.
Rommel knew the reserves would never make it to the beaches due to Allied airpower { wasn't it 200:1 in fighter superiority alone on day 1 ?}

Rommel believed that if the Allies got ashore then they would never be dislodged, and he was right. And Omaha shows what can happen on the beaches.

Try wargaming d-day youself as the Axis. You can't win it whatever tactics or strategy you try. 
Overrated he my be but 'taking the cowards way out' was to spare his family the concentation camps, not his own  reputation.

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KG Erwin
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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by KG Erwin »

I'll add Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Dwight D. Eisenhower.

I'm a Democrat, but Ronald Reagan earns kudos for his contributions in ending the Cold War and bringing down the Soviet Union.
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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by cdbeck »

I'll agree with FDR (despite the fact his programs were semi-facist and nearly socialist, it was what was needed at the time). I would like to argue John Locke, who may not have been a traditional "leader" but whose political ideology is the basis for most of the modern world.

Also, how about Philip II Augustus of France and Louis XIV (Sun-King). These guys basically built absolutism and Divine Right, and Philip Augustus managed to boot much of England out of France. I would also say Justinian (the Byzantine emperor), despite what Procopius has to say.

Saladin was pretty great too, managed to save the Islamic empires from the Crusaders.

I would add Pope Gregory I "The Great" to the political list, and the architect of the 4th Lateran council Innocent III. These guys made the Catholic Church have real political power.

One shouldn't forget Vladimir Lenin either. Just because he is one of the "bad boys," he was very effective and making change and taking the reigns of a gigantic country, switching it over to control by his own Communist party.

You know, these "greatest generals/leaders/etc..." are getting a bit formulaic, we need a "worst, most tragic, or unintentionally funny" leaders thread. My first vote would go to Maximilian Robespierre, who literally got people so riled up that he lost his head. And James II Stuart of England, who fled from a bloodless coup in the Glorious Revolution led by a (probably homosexual) William of Orange and his own daughter Mary (not to mention the whole "warming pan baby" incident). King John springs to mind, and the Magna Carta. Not to mention about 100 Roman emperors, like Commodus, Marcus Aurelius's son, who (unlike the movie) was an actual Gladiator in the arena from time to time. Caligula is an obvious choice, since he had statues of sexual positions to refer to when he had a conquest in his bedroom (and the business about his horse). And lets not forget everyone's favorite guy to hate, George McClellan.

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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by Zap »

I agree Son of Monfort, we need other examples. You mentioned the worst or most tragic, or funny. Add to that another, how about, most virtuous. King Stephen of Hungary 998 AD comes to mind. Brought civility to his country. Was loved by his people for his goodness.

Example of a letter of advice to his son. " My beloved son, delight of my heart, hope of your posterity, I pray, I command, that at every time and in everything, strengthened by your devotion to me, you may show favor not only to relations and kin, or to the most eminent, be they leaders or rich men or neighbors or fellow-countrymen, but also to foreigners and to all who come to you. By fulfilling your duty in this way you will reach the highest state of happiness. Be merciful to all who are suffering violence. Be patient with everyone, not only with the powerful, but also with the weak.

Finally be strong lest prosperity lift you up too much or adversity cast you down. Be humble in this life, that God may raise you up in the next. Be truly moderate and do not punish or condemn anyone immoderately. Be gentle so that you may never oppose justice. Be honorable so that you may never voluntarily bring disgrace upon anyone. Be chaste so that ;you may avoid all the foulness of lust like the pangs of death.

All these virtues I have noted above make up the royal crown, and without them no one is fit to rule here on earth.

from Stephen's advice to his son
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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by madorosh »

ORIGINAL: ezz

I always thought Runstead { and Hitler even more so } was proved wrong at Normandy.
Rommel knew the reserves would never make it to the beaches due to Allied airpower { wasn't it 200:1 in fighter superiority alone on day 1 ?}

Rommel believed that if the Allies got ashore then they would never be dislodged, and he was right. And Omaha shows what can happen on the beaches.

Try wargaming d-day youself as the Axis. You can't win it whatever tactics or strategy you try.
Overrated he my be but 'taking the cowards way out' was to spare his family the concentation camps, not his own reputation.


von Runstedt also said "Make Peace, You Fools" which was the only way out of the Normandy predicament. There were no easy solutions; a reading of John Ellis' facts and figures in "Brute Force" suggests the matter was probably decided by June 1944 but for actually doing the thing.

Point taken on Rommel's reputation. Put me down as one of those who "don't like him" as mentioned up above. [;)]
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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by sullafelix »

Absent to the discussion so far are.
 
Timur ( Tamerlane ) greatest conqueror of all times ( in area )
 
Cromwell, Marlborough. Both came to warfare later in life and both never lost. Malpaquet being a Pyrrhic victory but a victory none the less.
 
Pompey, I believe as a younger man would have had no trouble with Caesar. 
 
 
 
 
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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: sulla05


Timur ( Tamerlane ) greatest conqueror of all times ( in area )



Strange, I always thought that was Queen Victoria.
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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by morvwilson »

Had a similar thread on this a while back and learned about a new guy I did know of prior.
Duke of Marlburough, one of Winston Chruchill's ancestors.
Think both of these guys deserve mention.
 
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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by Arkady »

Scipio Africanus

Hannibal was maybe better tactician (bu not so much and later Scipio defeat him on the battlefield anyway), Scipio understand strategic situation more clearly. He cut H. forces in Italy from his bases in Spain and later move to Africa to force H. out of Italy.
After war he proposed only moderate terms to Carthagians to avoid future wars (something what french never understand after WWI)
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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by cdbeck »

ORIGINAL: sulla05
Cromwell...

See, I would put Cromwell on the worst list. Militarily he was good, but politically he was such a dictator that he had much of the English populace crying for a return of the monarch (even slightly Catholic Charles II) within a generation. And his son was just terrible.

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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by ezzler »

Top 5 Military and political leaders
one of these is the odd one out... can you guess ?

Napoleon
lincoln
Eisenhower
Bismark
Bush

Top arogant / meglomaniacs

Hitler
Stalin
Mao
Kim Jong-il
Saddam
Caligula
Napoleon

and some lesser ones
all the 'macs'

McClellan
Macarthur
Macbeth
Mcdonalds
MC Hammer [:'(]



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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by IronDuke_slith »

ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh

ORIGINAL: SireChaos
Others... Rommel (as with Bismarck, you don´t have to LIKE him...) ...

That was the same Rommel who lost the entire African continent, battered his brains out at Tobruk, basically used up his Italian allies in order to preserve his ethnic German forces, never set foot in the big league (Eastern Front), was proven completely wrong in his concept of defending Normandy (only one amphibious assault in the history of warfare was ever turned back at the water's edge, and it certainly wasn't in France), and then took the coward's way out in hopes of sparing his place in history?

I guess Rommel was an okay infantry company commander and did well as a headquarters guard, and as an armoured division commander did well in France - but was obviously promoted past his level of competence since he doesn't seem to have accomplished too terribly much after 1941 except when his opposition was inexperienced or completely outclassed as at, say, Kasserine.


I'd have to agree with Ezz on this one. Of all the Commanders in the Wehrmacht by early 1944, none had experience of the debilitating effects of Allied airpower like Rommel did.

von rundstedt may have wanted a war of movement in the french interior, but moving only at night with uncertain fuel supplies and little or no chance of operational surprise was no way to actually win such a fight.

It may be that there was little chance of stopping the Allies whatever you did, but then that doesn't mean Rommel's strategy was poor.

I've always wondered at the war game that would have 12th SS garrisoned and on full alert in and around St Lo on 6th June.

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RE: Greatest military/political leaders in history?

Post by freder »

ORIGINAL: ezz

Top 5 Military and political leaders

Napoleon
lincoln
Eisenhower
Bismark
Bush


Yeah, thousands of years of history and it all boils down to . . Bush (jr. or sr. whatever)!
Top arogant / meglomaniacs

Hitler
Stalin
Mao
Kim Jong-il
Saddam
Caligula
Napoleon

Yeah, thousands of years of history and all I see are our well known 20th century contemporaries!
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