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gunfight at Flavion

 
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gunfight at Flavion - 8/12/2007 12:12:12 AM   
Arthurmoment

 

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More like slaughter at Rosee. How are you supposed to take out those Frenchie tanks with your little panzers? This isn't really a thread - just frustration at not being able to live up to Rommel's expectation of me! Has anyone one gained a Major Victory on this one? I keep getting shot to pieces...

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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/12/2007 1:50:34 AM   
big dawg


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I had my a$$ handed to me too.

You win some & loose some. 

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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/12/2007 4:14:45 AM   
1925frank

 

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I was hoping someone else would provide some suggestions.  It's been a long time since I've played that one, and I'm not sure if I've ever won a major victory, but I think I've managed a minor victory.

The French B1-bis require, I believe, 50 action points to fire.  That means if they move at all, they can only fire once.  If you can, try to get them to fire at your while you're in a village or woods and preferably at a distance, then rush them with a Panzer 38(t) and fire at close range and hope for a disruption.  If you've got a Panzer IV handy, use it to assault an isolated B1-bis, preferable with a friendly unit on the far side, even if it can't assault, so you have a chance of capturing the B1-bis.  I think assaulting the B1-bis without a friendly unit on the far side might do more harm than good, because it'll just retreat, and then it'll get to fire at you at close range on its next turn.  I think the Panzer IIs are very mobile, and they can be used to box in the B1-bis as well.  If you can, after you've fired and assaulted, try to get your tanks as far away as possible and, again, preferably in a village or woods before you hit the "Next Turn" button.

I don't recall if the Germans have any Panzer III tanks, but they tend to be better against hard targets.  I think these early Panzer IVs are relatively poor against hard targets but are very good at assaults, which is why I'd try and reserve them for your assaults.

If you can find the French HQ and, if nothing else, keep it moving, you stand a chance of engaging the B1-bis while they are low on ammo, which might also even the odds a bit. 

If you get a B1-bis disrupted, that evens the odds too, so keep at it and try, if nothing else, to keep it disrupted. 

I'd welcome some strategy tips as well, because, as I mentioned above, I don't believe I ever mastered this scenario.


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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/12/2007 4:49:51 PM   
Arthurmoment

 

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Thank you for the tips and advice Frank. If I can crack this one I think it will set me in good stead for the campaigns. This forum is extremely useful. Thanks to everyone who takes the time to help.
John

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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/12/2007 5:06:48 PM   
junk2drive


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I played this as French vs big dawg PBEM with the TS version. IIRC we played with armour facing rules on and the dawg had some success taking out my B1 bis with rear shots after getting them to retreat.

It did seem to be a very one sided scenario. Move on to something else and try again after you gain some experience. Or be satisfied with a minor loss instead of a major loss

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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/13/2007 12:11:51 AM   
Krec


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Got to get flank and rear shots if possible ,  as stated 50 to fire means you have moble advatage .   never frontal shots ,  they are a waste .  Tough scen for sure.


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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/13/2007 12:54:43 AM   
1925frank

 

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I don't know if Arthurmoment is playing against the AI or a human.  If he's playing against the AI, then the armor-facing rule should be off. 

I don't think the scenario was designed for human v. human.  One of the things that gives the German player hope is he is playing against the AI, and the AI will usually accomodate you with poor opportunity-fire shots if you can figure out a way to coax a few bad shots off away from your main tanks.

I don't know if the Germans have smoke, but if they do, that too can be used.  Smoke can block sight, or it can reduce the effective firepower going out or going into a hex.  Smoke doesn't affect assaults. 

If you see the French tanks move, I think that means they'll have, at most, only one opportunity-fire shot.

If I remember correctly, a lot of the French tanks are in the open in the middle of the map early in the game and, thanks to the AI, will remain in the open.

I won't say where the French HQs are, but you can probably figure that out by the Victory Point hexes.  Now, whether you can get tanks there to harrass the French HQs is another question.

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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/13/2007 7:23:43 AM   
asiaticus

 

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Check out this post about the real battle.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=76649

If you get a major win as the Germans you will be doing way better than historicical.

The smart play was probably Rommel's. Bypass them and shoot up their supply lines so they run out of gas.

< Message edited by asiaticus -- 8/13/2007 7:27:36 AM >

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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/13/2007 5:38:50 PM   
vadersson


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I played this one too recently.  I got a draw.  I was pounding those darn tanks and they took all I had and more.  The flavor text of the scenario makes me thinkg that with armor facing on it would be more interesting, but the computer is not able to handle that.  I normally leave AFR off, but in this case it might be needed.

Good luck,
Duncan


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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/13/2007 5:42:12 PM   
1925frank

 

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Thank you, Asiaticus.

Arthurmoment, that should be some consolation.  It wasn't easy for the Germans either.

I'm not sure if the scenario designer attempted to reflect the fact the French were very low on supplies.  There's one other scenario from the May-June Campaign where the Germans had outrun their supply, and the French attacked them, and you play as the Germans.  The out-of-supply status was reflected by having the German units start the game with the empty bullet (low on supply) and with the German HQs exposed, which required moving them and further delaying the resupply of the German units.  I believe the Germans started with many units disrupted and some with their morale lowered a couple steps, which meant those units required several turns to regain their nondisrupted status.  With the fog of war on, I know you can tell if an enemy unit is disrupted, but I don't recall if you can tell if it is out of supply.  I know you can't tell its morale.  If you study the "Gunfight at Flavion" scenario so you can see the status of the French tanks, you might conclude you have to strike early and hard, while they are low on ammo and disrupted.  My recollection is the French do not start disrupted, and I have no clue whether they start low on supply.

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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/13/2007 7:03:27 PM   
1925frank

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vadersson

I played this one too recently.  I got a draw.  I was pounding those darn tanks and they took all I had and more.  The flavor text of the scenario makes me thinkg that with armor facing on it would be more interesting, but the computer is not able to handle that.  I normally leave AFR off, but in this case it might be needed.

Good luck,
Duncan




What I like about the scenario is it illustrates the Germans weren't fighting with a technological advantage. In many respects, their tanks were inferior. I think even the French light tanks have defense values of 6, which is two points better than anything the Germans had.

When the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in June 1941, they encounted the T34, which was, I guess, a whole generation better than anything the Germans had.

I guess the assumption is that a person can win a major victory in every scenario, but I'm not sure that's true. A reviewer of "Beyond the Dnieper" (a different Matrix product) thought a draw was the best the German player could do. There's an East Front scenario where you play as the Soviets and you lead a cavalry charge against Geman machine guns. There were a couple Divided Ground scenarios that I thought were simply unwinnable. Some scenarios are designed to teach you something that you can only profit from when you play some other scenario. I don't know if anyone else shares this view. It might just be my inability to master the game.

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Post #: 11
RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/13/2007 7:52:12 PM   
Jason Petho


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

It might just be my inability to master the game.


I have played this game since its first release and I have yet to master it.

Jason Petho


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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/13/2007 8:46:19 PM   
junk2drive


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My assumption on the Armour Facing Rules is that the AI cannot plan for shooting you in the rear or rotate it's armour to prevent you from rear shots.

The recommendation to not play with AFR vs AI is to give the AI a better chance.

In this scen, I doubt that you can roll a kill against the front of a Char B1 bis. If only the French had...

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Post #: 13
RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/13/2007 8:54:13 PM   
Jason Petho


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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

My assumption on the Armour Facing Rules is that the AI cannot plan for shooting you in the rear or rotate it's armour to prevent you from rear shots.


That is correct.

Jason Petho

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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/13/2007 10:02:12 PM   
Juggalo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

My assumption on the Armour Facing Rules is that the AI cannot plan for shooting you in the rear or rotate it's armour to prevent you from rear shots.

The recommendation to not play with AFR vs AI is to give the AI a better chance.

In this scen, I doubt that you can roll a kill against the front of a Char B1 bis. If only the French had...


I think it should be an exception in this scenario.

It would more accurately simulate the German's superior armor doctrine.
I remember reading about some battle (maybe this one) where the Germans would literally "plink" the slow moving French tanks from all angles with 37 and 20mm shells until the French lost their nerve and abandoned or surrendered their Chars.
Vehicle abandonment due to low morale is well represented in Steel Panthers.....not sure if it could work in CS.
Would be cool though!

Oh, and don't forget about the German leaders in this scenario. The Regiment leader has a "4" rating....makes a difference!

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Post #: 15
RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/14/2007 12:21:27 AM   
Arthurmoment

 

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Hello everyone!

Whilst I've been grinding out another famous minor defeat you've all been busy leaving posts that make me feel an awful lot better. I think the most telling comment was that a major victory is not actually achievable in every scenario. That makes sense - I'd not really thought about it like that - its easy to forget that these are designed to reflect reality but I think (up to now) I had thought a major victory was the aim of "the game". I like this game - I think it is going take a long time to master (if ever).

Many thanks

John

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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/14/2007 12:29:48 AM   
1925frank

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Juggalo
Oh, and don't forget about the German leaders in this scenario. The Regiment leader has a "4" rating....makes a difference!


There you go! Now that's good advice. That "4" leader would be an incredibly useful card to play.

Arthurmoment didn't qualify his request to only good advice, which was why I felt qualified to chime in.

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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/14/2007 3:33:04 AM   
Krec


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what i do in this one is, disrupt, surround and capture.  you can pull this one out with this tech.  altlthough against a human i think this scen is almost impossible to win as Gmen.   The Ai will help you out by charging straight into your traps!!  

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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/25/2007 4:51:49 PM   
1925frank

 

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I replayed "Gunfight at Flavion."  I ended up with a minor loss.  If I hadn't carelessly lost a battalion HQ, I would have had a draw. 

Maybe I wasn't so careless in losing my battalion HQ.  Maybe the French were lucky.  Both SPs lost in one shot from a distance of about six hexes. 

I knocked out the French battalion HQ very early. 

I took the northern 50 point Victory Hex early, and, basically, the AI never mounted a serious counterattack.  Because of the height advantage and the woods, I could defend it well.

I took the southern 25 point Victory Hex next, and the AI mounted repeated counterattacks.  I hid in the village hex, blasted away when the B1-bis retook the Victory Hex, retook the Victory Hex, and retreated back into the village hex to repeat the process.  I managed to keep the Victory Hex.

I didn't recall the large number of B1-bis platoons.  Encircling disrupted platoons was difficult because the AI had the B1-bis platoons layered, and when my tanks sought to encircle, they'd get blasted from the second echelon of B1-bis tanks that were waiting in the rear.

I was never able to mount an attack on the eastern 50-point Victory Hex.

Humbled.


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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/25/2007 9:13:59 PM   
1925frank

 

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Some additional thoughts on my first replay of "Gunfight at Flavion" in years:

I think I ended up with 83 points.  When you subtract the 75 points for the Victory Hexes, that leaves an 8-point advantage in the actual fighting.  I think the battalion HQ I lost was worth 24 points (each step valued at 12), so, if I hadn't lost it, I had a 32-point advantage in the actual fighting.  I tried to always engage from higher elevation, from woods or villages, or from behind stone walls. 

I was able to get off some successful assaults, but it was difficult for the reasons set out in my prior post, but there was another reason.  The B1-bis traveled usually in 3 platoons.  To assault successfully, I usually would want all three platoons disrupted, but getting all three disrupted at one time was difficult to do.  After getting all three disrupted, you still had to have sufficient forces to assault.

To get a major victory, you'd need all three victory hexes, valued at 125 points total, and a 75 point victory margin in the actual fighting.

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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/26/2007 12:09:52 AM   
tide1212


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I never could win that one

< Message edited by tide1212 -- 8/26/2007 12:11:11 AM >

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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/26/2007 8:17:10 AM   
1925frank

 

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A minor victory!  Just barely.  201 points.  Sweated the last French turn.  Started the last French turn with 204 points, lost three on the first or second French shot, and managed not to lose anymore during the following salvos.  I got very lucky.  It's after midnight.  Gotta run.

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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/26/2007 11:08:53 PM   
Arthurmoment

 

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Thanks Frank - you've given me hope.
JR

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RE: gunfight at Flavion - 8/27/2007 7:09:01 AM   
1925frank

 

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Here's my after-action report:

I didn't use the main roads.  I sent all my German companies to the west and up through the unpaved road going through the woods and up the hill.  (I'm using the top of the map as north, although that might not be what the compass on the 2d map shows.)  I bypassed Rosee to its west and went straight for the 50 point victory hex in the north, which I'll call the Route 36 Victory Hex.  For speed, I stayed in the open, but I stayed as far west as I could to avoid potshots from the B1-bis platoons on the main road.  I learned my lesson in the previous game, and I kept my HQs even further to the west and, at times, in the woods.  I sent my tank platoons up the unpaved wooded road to the southwest of the Route 36 Victory Hex, being careful to stay out of the sight of the B1-bis platoons on the main road.  I think this put me at a higher elevation than the Route 36 Victory Hex, and there was a woods screening me from all the B1-bis platoons on the main road.  After I got about two companies to the west and northwest of the Route 36 Victory Hex, I attacked it.  I think it was about turn 5 (out of 11) before any shots were fired by either side.  I was able to locate and destroy the French Battalion HQ and take the Route 36 Victory Hex.

There was a French leader that slipped away from the Route 36 Victory Hex.  I used other platoons that were still coming north to draw fire from the B1-bis platoons on the main road just south of the Route 36 Victory Hex.  I then eventually slipped a Panzer II platoon around the south side of the French leader.  I needed a little luck to isolate the French leader so he could not retreat into a safe hex, but I got that luck and eliminated the French leader.  Not only was he worth a lot of points, but I didn't want him helping the B1-bis platoons.

The B1-bis platoons made many counterattacks to take the Route 36 Victory Hex.  With the help of higher elevation, woods, the village hex, and German leaders, I was able to hold my own against the B1-bis platoons.  I was surprised at the number of B1-bis platoons that kept coming, and I was surprised at how well my tanks defended their positions.  There was also a French armored car platoon that joined the attack.  The armored cars were worth four VP per vehicle, and they were a lot easier to knock out than the B1-bis tanks. 

My last reinforcement company went went west like all the previous companies and went up the unpaved road, through the woods, and up the hill, but, unlike the other companies, the last company went into Rosee but made no immediate attempt to take the 25 point victory hex there.  I'll refer to that victory hex as the Rosee Victory Hex.  I took the unpaved road to Rosee, and two French AT guns repeatedly fired at me but were not able to hurt me.  The Panzer II platoon and the Panzer IV platoon were able to fire back and eliminate the French AT guns for some additional points.  Around turn 8, 9, or 10, I could see many B1-bis tanks heading north away from the Rosee Victory Hex to help in the attempt to retake the Route 36 Victory Hex.  On turn 11 (the last turn), I decided to make a run for the Rosee Victory Hex and found only one platoon of French infantry there.  My Panzer II platoon could neither disrupt nor force the French infantry platoon to retreat.  My Panzer IV platoon similarly could neither disrupt nor force the French infantry platoon to retreat.  One platoon of Panzer 38(t)s failed as well.  My last platoon of Panzer 38(t)s managed to force the French infanty platoon to retreat on its first shot.  All four platoons had enough AP to move into the vacated Rosee Victory Hex.  The French infantry platoon tried to retake the Rosee Victory Hex during the French turn 11 without success.  No B1-bis platoons attempted to retake the Rosee Victory Hex.

Meanwhile, back up at the Route 36 Victory Hex, I sent one company of tanks further north and then east around the woods and headed for the 50 point victory hex in Juzaine, which I'll refer to as the Juzaine Victory Hex.  A B1-bis platoon in the Juzaine Victory Hex would fire two shots every turn and succeeded in knocking out a few of my tanks as they headed east about four to six hexes north of the Juzaine Victory Hex.  I took up a position to the east of the Juzaine Victory Hex that was elevated and wooded.  On turn 10, the B1-bis platoon fired twice on my wooded position, and my platoon of Panzer 38(t)s retreated.  My Panzer IV platoon remained in the elevated wooded hex to the east.  On turn 11 (the last turn), the French Battalion HQ in the Juzaine Victory Hex lost its concealment.  I had no idea it was even there.   My Panzer IV platoon managed to eliminate the French Battalion HQ in one shot.  That was lucky.  If the Panzer IV platoon instead of the Panzer 38(t) platoon had been forced to retreat, the Panzer 38(t) platoon would have been far less able to take out a soft target at that range.  Also, if the French Battalion HQ had retreated, I don't think I would have had a second shot at it.

When the game ended, I saw there was just the one platoon of B1-bis protecting the French Battalion HQ in Juzaine.  I also saw there was a French Regimental HQ in Corenne just to the south of Juzaine.  There were French AT guns protecting the French Regimental HQ to its south, but there was nothing protecting it from its north, other than the B1-bis platoon in Juzaine.  I had effectively sucked virtually all the B1-bis into the attack on the Route 36 Victory Hex.

I obviously got very lucky.  Sometimes its better to be lucky than good.

< Message edited by 1925frank -- 3/6/2008 5:36:46 PM >

(in reply to Arthurmoment)
Post #: 24
RE: gunfight at Flavion - 9/1/2007 4:38:33 PM   
Viriathus


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As a EFII fan I've largely being playing its scenarios but, I have opened up WF to look at some North African action. I saw the Gunfight at Flavion scenario and inspired by this thread, I avoided reading the tactical suggestions, fired it up.

Got the shock of my life the first time, ended with a minor Axis defeat; second time a draw and third a minor Axis victory (230 points). Armour facing not on btw.

Has anyone managed a Major Victory against the AI?

Great scenario - short and tough but not riduculously so.

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Post #: 25
RE: gunfight at Flavion - 9/3/2007 12:10:00 AM   
junk2drive


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IF you like early war scens, try The Fatal Scythes as German vs AI.

Big Dawg and I PBEM'ed it and there wasn't much for the French player to do most of the turns. Twas some action at times though. Draw.

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Post #: 26
RE: gunfight at Flavion - 9/9/2007 2:36:05 PM   
Viriathus


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Thanks for the suggestion junk2drive. Took me a few goes to figure out how to beat it - good use of defensive features that hamper your advance. Looks like I might be getting into WF, now if only someone could suggest an interesting Rising Sun scenario and might open it up to. I did own RS originally but I lost interest in the repeated storming dug-in Japanese positions.

Can anyone suggest a short(ish) RS scenario that could tickle my fancy?

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Post #: 27
RE: gunfight at Flavion - 9/9/2007 2:47:56 PM   
Geomitrak


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Viriathus,

I recently played 'First Clash at Kohima' which was enjoyable. Also tried the very promising 'Lang Son Eastern Advance' which pits the Japanese against the Vichy French in Vietnam. It remains unfinished however, as I've now immersed myself in Hajo Baltjes' 440-turn 'Market Garden' scenario.

Regards
Paul



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Post #: 28
RE: gunfight at Flavion - 9/9/2007 5:23:59 PM   
Titanwarrior89


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Good thread I picked some pointers up

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Post #: 29
RE: gunfight at Flavion - 9/10/2007 5:42:00 PM   
vadersson


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For Rising Sun try the Kobouda Trail Linked Campaign Game. The scenarios are short by very fun and challenging. See what you think.

Thanks,
Duncan

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Post #: 30
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