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OT: Atomic Cafe - 6/29/2007 7:06:52 PM   
niceguy2005


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If you are in the mood for something different you might look to renting this movie (Atomic Cafe). It is a documentary addressing the bomb and the cold war. It simply splices together newsreels, interviews and movies (military training films) to give you a glimpse of what others were thinking, or felt back in the day. There is no commentary from the director what so ever, just the footage as it was shot. I have found it really fascinating and somewhat humerous at times. At other times its a little startling.

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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 6/29/2007 7:23:57 PM   
mlees


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I once owned a VHS set of a documentary about the US's atomic bomb testing programs. The set discusses the tests done from 1946 to 1950-something (H-bomb).

"Ka-PooF!"

"Ooo! Oooo! That was cool! Let's do it again! Umm, lets set up animal cages a mile away, and see what happens!"

I realise that some questions needed to be answered (like can a soldier in a trench be protected from the blast), but jeepers... I came away with the feeling that the scientists were like kids playing with matches.

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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 6/29/2007 7:46:03 PM   
MineSweeper


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Excellent Movie......here is another one

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114728/

I am still wondering if the Soviet 60 Megaton blast is still having after effects....

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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 6/29/2007 7:49:48 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

I once owned a VHS set of a documentary about the US's atomic bomb testing programs. The set discusses the tests done from 1946 to 1950-something (H-bomb).

"Ka-PooF!"

"Ooo! Oooo! That was cool! Let's do it again! Umm, lets set up animal cages a mile away, and see what happens!"

I realise that some questions needed to be answered (like can a soldier in a trench be protected from the blast), but jeepers... I came away with the feeling that the scientists were like kids playing with matches.


Yeah, i have both Atomic Cafe and 4-5 DVDs of atomic bomb tests... i don't think it was the scientists that were the ones instigating the tests, though...

One of the startling things i got from these tests is that it tanks, etc. (and apparently the guys inside*) can survive a fair-sized nuclear blast if they are within ~100 yards of it... (these were Hiroshima-Nagasaki sized bombs, iirc.)

*no, they didn't test with people in the tanks, just radiation meters...

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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 6/29/2007 7:51:31 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

Excellent Movie......here is another one

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114728/

I am still wondering if the Soviet 60 Megaton blast is still having after effects....



Yeah - that's another good one - my favorite scene is the closing one, where the Chinese test their bomb, and ride through the dust cloud on horses - with the men and the horses all wearing gas masks!!

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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 6/29/2007 8:04:13 PM   
MineSweeper


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quote:



Yeah - that's another good one - my favorite scene is the closing one, where the Chinese test their bomb, and ride through the dust cloud on horses - with the men and the horses all wearing gas masks!!


That scene still ingrained in my head......
But IMO, it is one of the best Atom bomb documentry's ever made.....

< Message edited by MineSweeper -- 6/29/2007 8:06:25 PM >


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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 6/29/2007 8:09:22 PM   
mlees


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Yeah, i have both Atomic Cafe and 4-5 DVDs of atomic bomb tests... i don't think it was the scientists that were the ones instigating the tests, though...


I don't think the scientists complained too much. They were getting huge Federal grants, afterall. Marriage of convenience.

quote:

One of the startling things i got from these tests is that it tanks, etc. (and apparently the guys inside*) can survive a fair-sized nuclear blast if they are within ~100 yards of it... (these were Hiroshima-Nagasaki sized bombs, iirc.)

*no, they didn't test with people in the tanks, just radiation meters...


I wonder about the morale effects though. Hard to fight with a set of pants full of poo...

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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 6/29/2007 8:21:49 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

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100 yards ? What will be the heat at so close a distance ?

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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 6/29/2007 9:03:28 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

I once owned a VHS set of a documentary about the US's atomic bomb testing programs. The set discusses the tests done from 1946 to 1950-something (H-bomb).

"Ka-PooF!"

"Ooo! Oooo! That was cool! Let's do it again! Umm, lets set up animal cages a mile away, and see what happens!"

I realise that some questions needed to be answered (like can a soldier in a trench be protected from the blast), but jeepers... I came away with the feeling that the scientists were like kids playing with matches.


What I have found is that scientists had a vareity of reactions to the testing that went on. Some involved in the Manhattan project thought that continued testing of the bomb was immoral, some thought it patriotic and most fell somewhere in the middle.

There was talk at the time of harnessing nuclear blasts for commercial purposes and a lot of the justification for continued testing was not just about improving a militray weapon but seeing if it could have civil uses. I seem to recall that they were seriously considering using small devices for mining and excavation....I mean why dig through a mountain wall if you can just vaporize it.




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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 6/29/2007 9:06:25 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

Excellent Movie......here is another one

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114728/

I am still wondering if the Soviet 60 Megaton blast is still having after effects....

I just put it in my netflix queue.

Another good documentary on the subject was done by the History Channel's Modern Marvels. It focused on infrastructure that had to be built to try and refine enough U235 or Plutonium to make a bomb. It was amazing to see the enormous cities at Hanford and Oak Ridge that sprang up almost overnight.

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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 6/30/2007 7:48:19 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

100 yards ? What will be the heat at so close a distance ?


Well, OUTSIDE the tank, it would be, um, a tad warm ... inside, the temperature was supposed to be survivable...

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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 6/30/2007 7:50:18 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

I once owned a VHS set of a documentary about the US's atomic bomb testing programs. The set discusses the tests done from 1946 to 1950-something (H-bomb).

"Ka-PooF!"

"Ooo! Oooo! That was cool! Let's do it again! Umm, lets set up animal cages a mile away, and see what happens!"

I realise that some questions needed to be answered (like can a soldier in a trench be protected from the blast), but jeepers... I came away with the feeling that the scientists were like kids playing with matches.


What I have found is that scientists had a vareity of reactions to the testing that went on. Some involved in the Manhattan project thought that continued testing of the bomb was immoral, some thought it patriotic and most fell somewhere in the middle.

There was talk at the time of harnessing nuclear blasts for commercial purposes and a lot of the justification for continued testing was not just about improving a militray weapon but seeing if it could have civil uses. I seem to recall that they were seriously considering using small devices for mining and excavation....I mean why dig through a mountain wall if you can just vaporize it.



They were seriously considering digging a "sea-level" replacement for the Panama canal using nuclear explosives... and bemoaned the test-ban treaty for stopping the project (it was supposed to go through Nicaraugua, iirc).

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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 6/30/2007 8:46:15 PM   
Nikademus


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Gotta love all the old informational film shorts of the 50's in the new atomic age. They were, (and remain) a perineal favorite of various Industrial/goth/alt-music dance bars where they were played on screens or against a black wall while the music played. They were as much fun to watch as it was to people watch.

ATOMIC BLAST INCOMING! DUCK N COVER UNDER YOUR SCHOOL DESK! YOU'LL BE SAFE!!!

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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 6/30/2007 8:56:06 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Gotta love all the old informational film shorts of the 50's in the new atomic age. They were, (and remain) a perineal favorite of various Industrial/goth/alt-music dance bars where they were played on screens or against a black wall while the music played. They were as much fun to watch as it was to people watch.

ATOMIC BLAST INCOMING! DUCK N COVER UNDER YOUR SCHOOL DESK! YOU'LL BE SAFE!!!


Probably this was one (featured on Atomic Cafe):
http://www.archive.org/details/DuckandC1951





Attachment (1)

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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 6/30/2007 9:08:32 PM   
Nikademus


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YES!

lol...saw that one a number of times......ah memories. It sucks to get old.


Another favorite....old anime.....like 8-man.

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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 6/30/2007 9:18:47 PM   
mikemike

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


They were seriously considering digging a "sea-level" replacement for the Panama canal using nuclear explosives... and bemoaned the test-ban treaty for stopping the project (it was supposed to go through Nicaraugua, iirc).


They actually made some tests - somewhere in the Nevada desert there must still be some craters that were the result. I think the tests ran under the codename "Project Plowshare". I saw a photo taken just after the explosion - it showed the ground being pushed upwards like a giant soap bubble.

In the fifties, people expected that all kinds of things would get nuclear power - planes, ships, trains, trucks. GE and Westinghouse were actually developing nuclear-powered aircraft engines; one of them had the ingested air flow through the reactor core where it was supposed to be heated up enough to provide the thrust. Obviously nobody minded the radiation that this would have set free. A small test reactor (that powered nothing) was flown in a converted B-36. It's hard to believe that it would have been possible to provide adequate shielding for most of these applications. Apparently hardly anyone took the dangers of radiation seriously at the time. But there was a similar mindset when x-rays were discovered, and then again, when Radium was discovered. Doctors actually irradiated their patients with x-rays to enhance their vitality, and generally the handling of x-ray machines was extremely careless by today's standards in the beginning. People fooled around with radiation in those days - you really can't call it anything else.

Somebody mentioned the influence of fat Government research grants on the work scientists did. That reminds me of the bomb-pumped x-ray laser scam. Edward Teller's group came up with the idea that rods of special materials would be able to convert the radiation of an H-bomb explosion into x-ray laser beams. They even presented experimental results that "proved" the effect. Of course the group was instantly buried under truckloads of Government megabucks - this was just when Reagans "Star Wars" took off. Satellites armed with those lasers were intended to be the core of the Star Wars anti-missile screen. Each satellite was to carry a bomb that, when detonated, would produce hundreds of one-shot x-ray laser beams to destroy incoming warheads. The principle even found its way into SF literature - Niven/Pournelle's "Footfall" which also contains the Orion spaceship propelled by the detonation of nuclear bombs, and the Harrington series by David Weber. All fine space opera. And that's what the bomb-pumped laser turned out to be IRL: its inventors had overstated the efficiency of the effect by a factor of more than a hundred; the experimental results just showed a fluorescence effect. But while nobody had yet tumbled to that, they channeled large amounts of taxpayers' money into the pockets of their research group. I can't remember if anyone went to prison for that, but the whole thing was quietly buried.

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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 6/30/2007 9:34:43 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Gotta love all the old informational film shorts of the 50's in the new atomic age. They were, (and remain) a perineal favorite of various Industrial/goth/alt-music dance bars where they were played on screens or against a black wall while the music played. They were as much fun to watch as it was to people watch.

ATOMIC BLAST INCOMING! DUCK N COVER UNDER YOUR SCHOOL DESK! YOU'LL BE SAFE!!!

Growing up in Houston in the late 60s and 70s we actually got to do some of those drills...being that Texas is continually 10 years behind the rest of the country culturally, well except for Arkansas and Mississippi which are 20 years behind.

When I was about 12 (by which time we had pretty much stopped doing the drills), I asked my mom, a school teacher, why we had to do them in the first place because it was silly to think that a desk would provide any protection. Her answer was that it was important in keeping the children calm and under control to have something to do, a job if you will, in the event of an attack. By having something to do they were less likely to panic and do something that would put themselves or others in danger....which seemed a pretty good answer to me.

Also, another thought, although I am not a nuclear physicist, I would speculate that:
1. ducking and
2. convering with anything available
is better than doing nothing. In a nuclear blast you will probaby get three waves of energy that radiate outward from ground zero. The waves are:
1. radioactive particles (alpha, beta, gamma)
2. heat
3. wind (shock wave)
Each wave carries its unique hazards. Ducking and covering will help considerably though with the first wave of energy. The radioactive particles will traveling in a straight line outward from the blast and the smaller the surface area you present to those particles the less radiation exposure you will recieve. Also, Alpha particles (the most dangerous) are easily stopped by just about any reasonably thick solid material (brick, wood, metal) and beta particle exposure may be drastically reduced. Against gamma rays you're largely screwed. However, it is conceivable that someone crouched behind a low brick wall would receive orders of magnitude less initial exposure than someone standing up.

After the initial blast its about getting to a safe distance and not breathing the dust particles from debris (which will contain alpha and beta particles).

The wave of heat (infra-red radiation) would behave largely in the same manner. Heat beind transmitted by convection or radiation is going to travel mostly outward in a straight line. It would be hot but anything you can do to shield yourself from the initial wave, would help greatly, again even behind a desk or low wall would help.

The shock wave, if you are close enough, is primarily a concern because of flying debry so again any sort of barrier would probably help.

SO REMEMBER KIDDIES, IN THE NEXT NUCLEAR ATTACK DUCK AND COVER.



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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 6/30/2007 10:18:29 PM   
Dixie


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Our NBC training involves lying flat on the ground facing the explosion (our helmets are 'suppossed' to deflect the blast wave around us  I'd like to see that) wait for both shockwaves to pass, then run for cover.  Once we're there brush the radioactive particles off () before entering shelter and carrying out deconamination drills. 
Obviously our NBC suits are totally nuclear proof else the whole process would be academic   Alpha particles can actually be stopped by paper or even skin (allegedly, I don't want to find out), they are only really dangerous if ingested.

IIRC the effects go:
Heat
Positive blast wave out from detonation
Negative blast wave back towards detonation
Fallout
Slow lingering death


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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 6/30/2007 10:20:58 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Gotta love all the old informational film shorts of the 50's in the new atomic age. They were, (and remain) a perineal favorite of various Industrial/goth/alt-music dance bars where they were played on screens or against a black wall while the music played. They were as much fun to watch as it was to people watch.

ATOMIC BLAST INCOMING! DUCK N COVER UNDER YOUR SCHOOL DESK! YOU'LL BE SAFE!!!


Probably this was one (featured on Atomic Cafe):
http://www.archive.org/details/DuckandC1951






Has anyone seen the British film about nuclear attack? The one that was banned due to it's graphic description of what would happen to the victims?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3247573482818086914

< Message edited by Dixie -- 6/30/2007 10:35:06 PM >


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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 7/1/2007 1:49:36 AM   
Rafael Warsaw


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Boys,

Is this really so funny? Rtpatraso wouldnt You ride those horses?
c'mon, its so funny!!!!!!!!!!!!


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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 7/1/2007 1:56:59 AM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Gotta love all the old informational film shorts of the 50's in the new atomic age. They were, (and remain) a perineal favorite of various Industrial/goth/alt-music dance bars where they were played on screens or against a black wall while the music played. They were as much fun to watch as it was to people watch.

ATOMIC BLAST INCOMING! DUCK N COVER UNDER YOUR SCHOOL DESK! YOU'LL BE SAFE!!!


Probably this was one (featured on Atomic Cafe):
http://www.archive.org/details/DuckandC1951






Has anyone seen the British film about nuclear attack? The one that was banned due to it's graphic description of what would happen to the victims?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3247573482818086914


i saw it years ago. Just rewatched it.

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RE: OT: Atomic Cafe - 7/1/2007 1:58:41 AM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rafael Warsaw

Boys,

Is this really so funny? Rtpatraso wouldnt You ride those horses?
c'mon, its so funny!!!!!!!!!!!!



i will admit i cracked up laughing at the last scene in Trinity and Beyondwith the horses in gas masks...

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Post #: 22
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