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Replacement pilots experience change

 
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Replacement pilots experience change - 6/10/2007 6:25:39 PM   
Elladan

 

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Is the experience of replacement pilots (not reinforcements) changing as the game progresses? I remember there was a disagreement on this some time ago, was a consensus achieved? I'm asking because I would like to start a new game using RHS mod, but don't want to find myself with exp 45 USN pilots in 1945 facing hordes of Japanese exp 70 ones.
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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/10/2007 6:28:48 PM   
el cid again

 

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Yes it does. We can set INITIAL experience ONLY. A built in table takes effect as time passes. It is in the WITP Manual.
If there was disagreement, it was because someone has not read the manual.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 6/10/2007 6:29:19 PM >

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/10/2007 6:33:25 PM   
Elladan

 

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The manual has a table for reinforcement pilots experience, not replacements. Or at least it doesn't say it is for the latter too. I made a short test and replacement experience doesn't change between 1941 and 1942. Hasn't tested it further, but obviously someone must have played it to 1/1/43? 

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/10/2007 8:01:15 PM   
Mike Solli


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I am into 1943 and can confirm that the pilot replacement average experience doesn't change.  It remains at the experience level +9.  If you exaust the pilot pool and draw pilots, you'll get an experience level of 1/2 the experience level +9.

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/10/2007 8:21:47 PM   
Elladan

 

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That would confirm my doubts. If it is like that, and I haven't seen any proof it isn't, there is probably no point in playing a longer game in RHS as I can't reasonably hope to be able to defeat Japanese, who have both quantity and quality supremacy in air for the whole war. I'm talking about pbem of course, against AI it might be even interesting to give them some edge. 

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/10/2007 9:12:37 PM   
Mike Solli


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Keep in mind that this is only for replacement pilots.  The pilots that come with reinforcement daitai and chutai continually decline throughout the war.  By 1944 the reinforcement experience levels for the Japanese are 50 for the IJAAF and 45 for the IJNAF, vs. 75 for the US Navy, 65 for the US Army and Marines.   The Japanese get only a handful of replacement pilots each month.

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/10/2007 9:26:15 PM   
Elladan

 

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I know Mike that's replacements only. The problem is Japanese in RHS have 150 IJA exp 60 pilots and 216 IJN exp 70. No way you can kill them fast enough.

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/10/2007 11:41:37 PM   
el cid again

 

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Unless I am confused, the table in the manual is for replacements - it is hard code - and we cannot change it.
The table in the Scenario editor is for initial replacements - and we can change that one.

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/10/2007 11:56:18 PM   
Elladan

 

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from manual p.196

15.2.3 Average Pilot Experience by Nationality
When new units arrive as reinforcements, they will generally arrive with pilots that have
experience levels based on their nationality and the year of arrival. This is not always true as
some air groups have been given unusual experience ratings or contain a high proportion of
“historical” pilots that were of extraordinary skill. Normal units will enter with pilot experience set
near to the levels in the following table.

So not a single word about replacements. But tests show it doesn't change. At least that's what I know at the moment, if anybody has different results please let us know.


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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/11/2007 12:02:04 AM   
spence

 

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Well in 1942 USN pilots as reinforcements are supposed to have 65 exp but on the 3 CVEs I've received they are all (fighter, dive bomber and torpedo bomber pilots) around 40 exp. Seems pretty bogus to me. Beaucoup pilots in the pool.

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/11/2007 12:04:59 AM   
Elladan

 

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They might be historical pilots thus different ratings. You can code the experience of any squadron.

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/11/2007 2:15:43 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elladan

from manual p.196

15.2.3 Average Pilot Experience by Nationality
When new units arrive as reinforcements, they will generally arrive with pilots that have
experience levels based on their nationality and the year of arrival. This is not always true as
some air groups have been given unusual experience ratings or contain a high proportion of
“historical” pilots that were of extraordinary skill. Normal units will enter with pilot experience set
near to the levels in the following table.

So not a single word about replacements. But tests show it doesn't change. At least that's what I know at the moment, if anybody has different results please let us know.




You are reading too narrowly. This was not written by lawyers. It is trying to tell you about replacements as well as reinforcements (I think). But note the part that you can change reinforcements at the unit level - and sometimes we do just that. RHS has a table for this purpose - and we divate from it for cause in specific cases as well.

(in reply to Elladan)
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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/11/2007 2:16:55 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elladan

They might be historical pilots thus different ratings. You can code the experience of any squadron.



Just so. And if you play RHS you will find "boucoup" coded very low - because they were very green.
But you also will find cases we went the other way. There is a reason USMC started out squadrons on horrible planes - they wanted to give them experience BEFORE sending them to war! The war strained the training organizations - and you really are better off with experienced pilots - which you don't get from green units. But SOMETIMES things were done - in the case of Japan see Genda's Flying Circus. [This term - once used for an aerobatic team pre war - was also used for a fighter group late in the war - one that did spectacularly well - because they raided all units for experienced pilots]

< Message edited by el cid again -- 6/11/2007 2:19:02 AM >

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/11/2007 3:12:24 AM   
Herrbear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elladan

from manual p.196

15.2.3 Average Pilot Experience by Nationality
When new units arrive as reinforcements, they will generally arrive with pilots that have
experience levels based on their nationality and the year of arrival. This is not always true as
some air groups have been given unusual experience ratings or contain a high proportion of
“historical” pilots that were of extraordinary skill. Normal units will enter with pilot experience set
near to the levels in the following table.

So not a single word about replacements. But tests show it doesn't change. At least that's what I know at the moment, if anybody has different results please let us know.




You are reading too narrowly. This was not written by lawyers. It is trying to tell you about replacements as well as reinforcements (I think). But note the part that you can change reinforcements at the unit level - and sometimes we do just that. RHS has a table for this purpose - and we divate from it for cause in specific cases as well.


IMHO the table that Elladan refers to is for reinforcements only. Groups that do not start on the board at the beginning of the game will arrive with an average experience based on the table on page 15.2.3 of the manual.

Pilot replacements that you use the "Get Pilots" button are based on how the pilot information was set up for the scenario. You can use the Scenario Editor to change them prior to starting the game. Currently, in RHS Scenario 60 the IJA get 150 Replacement pilots per month with a rating of 60 +/- 9. The figures for the IJN pilots are 216 at experience of 75 +/- 9. The experience rate of a pilot inexcess of the monthly rate is a rating of 30 +/- 9 for the IJA and 35 +/- 0 for the IJN. This starts when the IJA uses replacement pilot 151 and the IJN with replacement pilot 217. These values continue throughout the war. It does not change as the war progresses.

The values for the USA are 200 at 45 +/- 9 and begining with number 201 23 +/- 9.
The values for the USN are 400 at 40 +/- 9 and begining with number 401 20 +/- 9.
The values for the USMC are 100 at 45 +/- 9 and begining with number 101 23 +/- 9.



< Message edited by Herrbear -- 6/11/2007 3:14:44 AM >

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/11/2007 1:30:39 PM   
Elladan

 

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Exactly as Herrbear said. I think I might just edit replacements experience to make it more playable. What do you think it should be? Given that it has to cover the whole war period.

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/11/2007 2:31:51 PM   
tanjman


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Elladan,

I think the table in the manual is only used when zero is placed in the experience field (means it uses the default value from the table) of the reinforcement air group. I think it may also apply to any reinforcement pilots in the database whose experience is set at zero.

From the editor manual (page 26 & 27):
3.5.1 Air Groups General Attributes
Experience is the average overall experience of the Air Group‘s pilots (not counting any historical pilots that are in the database attached to the unit. This should be between 0 and 99. If a 0 is entered, the pilots will assume the standard experience for a ship given the nationality and time of arrival.


See also section 3.5.1.1 of the editor manual.

From section 4.1.2 of the editor manual (pages 45 & 46):

Starting Experience is the starting base experience level of the replacement pilots (this is modified by a random factor to derive a specific pilot). Note that a rating of 50-60 is a thoroughly trained pilot with many months of flight time, but no combat experience. A rating of 25-30 is a hastily trained pilot, and a rating of 0 is a pilot in name only. Altering this number can have dramatic effects on the air battles in the scenario.

< Message edited by tanjman -- 6/11/2007 2:35:54 PM >


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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/11/2007 3:49:51 PM   
Nikademus


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remember too, that if pilots are assigned to the reinforcement squadron in question (from the historical pilot pool file wpp.pws), their individual exp values will override the exp value set for the squadron or the national default value.

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/11/2007 9:04:13 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elladan

Exactly as Herrbear said. I think I might just edit replacements experience to make it more playable. What do you think it should be? Given that it has to cover the whole war period.


In this context, what does "more playable" mean?

And, in general, is not "playable" a contradiction of "historically correct" when dealing with simulation?

Finally - the last question is the kicker: there is no way to answer it accurately at all. You are supposed to come up with one value good for an entire branch for the entire war? You are supposed to come up with even one value correct at one time for any service? This is an intangible - difficult to measure - and difficult to understand the meaning of whatever we say because we cannot see how it is used. And whatever the value, it is dynamic - not fixed.

My advice is to remember everyone starts the game at the beginning, almost no one ever gets to the end of the war. So IF you have a sense of what the values should be early - use that. That is the RHS philosophy in this matter. If you cannot simulate the beginning of the war correctly - you have no idea what the later phases will look like in any case.

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/11/2007 9:05:44 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

remember too, that if pilots are assigned to the reinforcement squadron in question (from the historical pilot pool file wpp.pws), their individual exp values will override the exp value set for the squadron or the national default value.



Good point - as was the one immediately above it. In short - we are not exactly in control whatever we do. When you are not in control, it is not worth a lot of energy trying to find a "perfect" answer. Even if there is one - which in this case I doubt.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 6/11/2007 9:06:14 PM >

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/11/2007 9:15:47 PM   
Nikademus


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It can be controlled. It just requires more work.

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/11/2007 9:58:37 PM   
Elladan

 

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quote:

In this context, what does "more playable" mean?

And, in general, is not "playable" a contradiction of "historically correct" when dealing with simulation?

I would say in this context "playable" is more or less equal to "historically correct" as I'm rather interested in simulation, not in fantasy

(in reply to el cid again)
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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/11/2007 10:33:01 PM   
el cid again

 

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OK - so what is "more historically correct?" And why?

IF we do NOT define the pilot experience right for the beginning of the war - we must mess up the early ops that define the mid war situation. I don't see much wiggle room here.

(in reply to Elladan)
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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/11/2007 11:16:41 PM   
Elladan

 

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Setting it right for 7 Dec 1941 and keeping that way till 1945 doesn't work either. Methinks we must accept some (big) inaccuracy and set it such that it have some connection with historicity for as long period as possible. In other words, give Allies better pilots at the start and worse at the end of the war (as compared to history). And opposite for Japan.

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/12/2007 2:22:20 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Well in 1942 USN pilots as reinforcements are supposed to have 65 exp but on the 3 CVEs I've received they are all (fighter, dive bomber and torpedo bomber pilots) around 40 exp. Seems pretty bogus to me. Beaucoup pilots in the pool.


Check the database for the version you're playing. There is a field in the database for initial experience. If it is set to zero, the unit will arrive with something close to the average for that point in the war. If there is another number there, the unitl will arrive with that average experience.

Bill

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/12/2007 5:13:21 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elladan

Setting it right for 7 Dec 1941 and keeping that way till 1945 doesn't work either. Methinks we must accept some (big) inaccuracy and set it such that it have some connection with historicity for as long period as possible. In other words, give Allies better pilots at the start and worse at the end of the war (as compared to history). And opposite for Japan.



That isn't our problem. Very few games (conservatively less than 1 in 10; practically less than 1 in 100) "get all the way till 1945."

Then too - I am not sure you are seeing the problem for what it is: pilot quality does not change all that much. And the fundamental problem - pilots over a certain number per month are awful - is crudely already present. Since WE define the number per month per service - that IS under our gross control.

What I suspect is going on here is a difference of (subjective) opinion about what is right in 1941. Otherwise a difference of (subjective) opinion about what happens later in the war. That is going to be a lot harder to address and be "correct" - because nothing you or I can do - or even agree on - will please all (subjective) opinions - which are diverse.

Then too we need to remember this is NOT history. Even if we seek historical simulation - and I do myself - rather than "play balance" or "fun" - which are legitimate (but different) goals - we probably should NOT force the game to be played as history was "played." That is, IF you think one side or service was badly managed it does NOT follow from that that side or service MUST BE equally badly managed in a game situation. You do not do credit to the players of either side to force such assumptions on them. They are not testing their strategy or operational skill if they either (a) have it too easy or (b) have it too hard. And - for whatever it may be worth - I do NOT think training changes very much during the war for any nation or service, for the following reasons:

1) Fundamentals never change; teach the basics well - and practice them often - your students will do well; A lot of what appears to be low quality is masking lack of fuel to practice with; this is well modeled in the game - and you should not doubble whammy that - IF players manage to have fuel - they have it - and penalizing them for not having it when they do is "inaccurate"

2) BOTH sides managed to field high quality units late in the war - but it took extraordinary effort - and it was not the rule - but the exception;

3) BOTH sides managed to field very green units mid and late war - this was more the rule than the exception - and should be our norm (probably)

4) Veteran units of BOTH sides, which were not exhausted or operating obsolete equipment or out of fuel were better than new units were - as a rule. Players can manage units and simulate this aspect of combat operations very well. We have unusual tools in this system in the software. Players who use them should be rewarded. Players who do not should be penalized. This is what operational management is about (what unit do you send on that mission?) - and to a degree it is what strategy is about (what unit do you send forward?). Masking it with built in numbers actually is inaccurate.

5) Simulating the dynamic war situation should not be too strongly done with drivers towards a static outcome. Uncertainties existed IRL impossible to simulate well here. But clearly our players are more challenged by more even numbers than by more unbalanced ones. A little prejudice for some historical reason is a good idea - and we do that with plane numbers, unit numbers, and the table we can program. It is probably enough.


< Message edited by el cid again -- 6/12/2007 5:24:48 AM >

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/12/2007 5:20:07 AM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elladan

Setting it right for 7 Dec 1941 and keeping that way till 1945 doesn't work either. Methinks we must accept some (big) inaccuracy and set it such that it have some connection with historicity for as long period as possible. In other words, give Allies better pilots at the start and worse at the end of the war (as compared to history). And opposite for Japan.


Its been mentioned a couple times....but you are aware you can set reinforcement airgroups exp yes?

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/12/2007 5:25:14 AM   
el cid again

 

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Just so. When there is cause to do that it is also a good idea. And that pretty much means we have the tools we need any time we want to break the set norms.

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/12/2007 8:00:39 AM   
wdolson

 

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It is technically possible to change the replacement pool on a game in progress.  A utility could be written that updates a saved game file created on or after a certain date.  It wouldn't be all that tough to do technically.

Bill


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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/12/2007 9:13:29 AM   
el cid again

 

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It is technically feasible to change a game in progress - either with a utility (which Matrix might approve of) or via an in turn editor (which I am told Matrix will never go for). It isn't practical unless you have a lot more information than most players have. You need at least a serious application programmer (say something like Excel) or a low level programmer and information about how things are stored in the turn file; OR you need a proper in turn editor which no one admits exists. Neither route is feasible for 99% of users.

I have some sympathy for players with man-years of time in a game wanting to fix a "busted" thing - but less with deliberately tampering with a game in progress. There are programmers who might help you with the former - but none I know of with the latter.

Finally - I think you are ignoring first principles here: what is the point of programming changes UNLESS you know what those should be? Tell me what you think should happen and I might be able to get you there indirectly. But so far I only know you want to change something - not why or to what degree? I bet we have enough tools in the game right now to do whatever you might wish to do - provided you can define it. And until you can do that, nothing will let you implement it in any case.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 6/12/2007 9:16:01 AM >

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RE: Replacement pilots experience change - 6/12/2007 3:06:13 PM   
Elladan

 

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quote:

Its been mentioned a couple times....but you are aware you can set reinforcement airgroups exp yes?

Perfectly aware. I have nothing against reinforcements. It's replacements that I just somehow can't accept. But I'm not asking for any change, just stating my personal opinion.

(in reply to Nikademus)
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