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A game for me ?

 
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A game for me ? - 5/19/2007 12:35:34 AM   
GMAIL

 

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Hello

So far I have only played tactical level war games ( Highway to the Reich, Steel Panthers World At War, Combat Mission games, , Close Combat 2 and the new one Cross of Iron).

I tried to play two games which are considered to be excellent operational /strategic level games : TOAW and Kharkov '42 (one of Panzer Campaigns by HPS Simulations /John Tiller) but after one battle of each games, I found that it was definitely not my cup of tea : I found them non immersing ( according my own taste) with an unfriendly interface and stopped playing. .Considered the excellent reviews of both games I am sure that the problem was not the quality of these games but maybe that these games were not the smoothest introduction to the operational /strategic level. I also tried "Strategic Command 2" and stopped playing after two battles. Of course it is also possible that I am simply not the guy for the operational /strategic level games and I should stick to the tactical level.

In the Matrix games search engine Battlefront appears as a "tactical" level game together with "Cross of Iron" and "Steel Panthers". Do you think that Battlefront could be a smoothest (and more immersing ) introduction to the tactical/operational level than TOAW or the Panzer Campaigns series ?

Thank you in advance


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RE: A game for me ? - 5/20/2007 4:58:02 AM   
balsampear

 

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HQ,supply system,OMA........veryvery good!






< Message edited by balsampear -- 5/20/2007 4:25:59 PM >

(in reply to GMAIL)
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RE: A game for me ? - 5/20/2007 12:37:52 PM   
zanekin

 

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Well, it's difficult to say...

Immersive ? As you said, it's a matter of taste. For example I like one kind of "immersion" in Cota : you're in command and it's really a command simulation (information, actions, results, you don't control everything); but i like an other kind of "immersion" in Battlefront: the operationnal level decisions are very well synthetized, you must ask yourself realistic question and plan realistic actions to win.

The judgement of interface is a difficult task: as I've extensively played with Decisive Battles serie, I understand the "new" interface quit easily... but the lack of in-game tutorial and the sometimes concise manual can be an obstacle.

In fact, I think Battlefront is a very good game for the newcomers in the operationnal level (but with experience of boardgame wargame), far more understandable than TOAW and far more flexible than Strategic command or HPS panzer campaign's.

(in reply to balsampear)
Post #: 3
RE: A game for me ? - 5/20/2007 1:57:28 PM   
Hertston


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If you don't like TAOW or Panzer Campaigns I can't see you liking Battlefront (or Decisive Battles of WW2) much, either.  You either find this style of game 'immersing' or you don't... BF has nothing new to offer in that particular regard.  I don't find the UI 'better' either, although it's no worse, but I've never had a problem with the TOAW and PzC interfaces anyway.

(in reply to zanekin)
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RE: A game for me ? - 5/20/2007 2:19:25 PM   
Adam Parker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GMAIL

In the Matrix games search engine Battlefront appears as a "tactical" level game


No this level of gaming - ie: battalion would be considered operational. SSG's Battlefront has tried to emulate the same scale as HPS's Panzer Campaigns by applying its Decisive Battles -regimental- level engine to the scale.

I don't believe it has succeeded owing to:

1. Its turn scale is totally out of whack - PzC offers 2 hour turns - Battlefront offers 12 hour turns. Too high for a battalion scale IMO. I have heard one guy who raved about Battlefront not even realising he was playing with 12 hour turns! It "didn't occur" to him.

2. Battlefront only offers 4 scenarios and IMO is just not value for money.

Before looking into operational wargaming I'd recommend reading up on the scale. Try some entertaining books like "Scorched Earth" by Paul Carell, "Barbarossa" by David Glantz, "Overlord" by Max Hastings etc., to get a feel for the level of command.

Maybe an old second hand board game such as Avalon Hill's DDay or Bulge would also help. It is easier IMO getting into the scale physically handling counters that represent battaliions and divisions, scanning OOB cards and taking the time to see how things integrate in paper and cardboard, before jumping into the limited pixel world of a 17" to 21" screen.

That could be your issue here - understanding your OOB's. That's where the immersion lies. I'd then jump into a PC game like SSG's "Battles in Normandy".

Keep at it!
Adam.

(in reply to GMAIL)
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RE: A game for me ? - 5/20/2007 4:33:53 PM   
balsampear

 

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(in reply to Adam Parker)
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RE: A game for me ? - 5/20/2007 11:07:08 PM   
zanekin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

1. Its turn scale is totally out of whack - PzC offers 2 hour turns - Battlefront offers 12 hour turns. Too high for a battalion scale IMO. I have heard one guy who raved about Battlefront not even realising he was playing with 12 hour turns! It "didn't occur" to him.

2. Battlefront only offers 4 scenarios and IMO is just not value for money.



1. Nothing is fixed. Battlefront is a system. As TOAW. So far more flexible than PzC. Operational level is not strictly stick to time or unit scale but rather to some kind of problems (C3I, defence of objectives, destruction of the enemy,etc.) and solution (movement of formation, use of artillery and air asset, direct fire, assault, etc.). Size of units is less important than scale of hex in the scenario: if it's too big, then direct fire, zoc, command control doesn't mean much.

2.4 scenarios, it's more than the initial amount of BiI that was raised to 22...

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 7
RE: A game for me ? - 5/21/2007 1:30:42 AM   
Howard7x


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

If you don't like TAOW or Panzer Campaigns I can't see you liking Battlefront (or Decisive Battles of WW2) much, either.  You either find this style of game 'immersing' or you don't... BF has nothing new to offer in that particular regard.  I don't find the UI 'better' either, although it's no worse, but I've never had a problem with the TOAW and PzC interfaces anyway.


I disagree, i dont like TOAW or the HPS games yet i like DB's and BF. They feel so dated it just hurts to look at them and the interface is horrible.

Ive been playing the Decisive Battles series for a few years now and its far easier to get into that either of those games above. I found them to be prehaps too much to handle, it scared me to look at a screen with about 500+ units to move. Whilst im sure thats exactly what some love i just cant handle taking over an hour to take a turn. BF and DB are a lot smaller in scale in terms of units you need to move and is on the whole a lot less daunting. While some will disagree i find BF to be the new generation of hex based wargames (but COTA is the way forward) and has built upon the Decisive Battles system making it easier to play and understand. The visuals suit the game and the maps are detailed just enough to not make it confusing.

BF's main problem is a lack of tutorial shipped with the game and a manual with a few holes in it - from a new players perspective this makes it difficult to get into. Fortunately the online support on RUN5 and JSS's tutorial help these faults a great deal and you will not find yourself struggling to understand the game. Once you learn the system its a great game to pass away the hours with.

GMAIL - Oh and the games you mentioned as the only games you have got into are the exact same ones i was (still am ) into before i picked up DB. Its the next step up and think you will find something to enjoy in BIN BII or BF, they are not as complex as TOAW or the horribly dated and expensive HPS simulations.


< Message edited by Howard7x -- 5/21/2007 1:40:16 AM >

(in reply to Hertston)
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RE: A game for me ? - 5/21/2007 7:23:32 AM   
Adam Parker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Howard7x

... they are not as complex as TOAW or the horribly dated and expensive HPS simulations.


What? The latest HPS Panzer Campaigns title Budapest 45 contains 31 scenarios including numerous full campaigns at $39.95 USD physical shipment. All other titles with similar scenario coverages sell for $49.95 USD physical shipment.

Battlefront with only 4 scenarios sells for $59.99 USD physical shipment. $49.99 USD download.

Horribly dated? Battlefront itself is based on a UI and graphics going back to The Ardennes Offensive published in 1997.


(in reply to Howard7x)
Post #: 9
RE: A game for me ? - 5/21/2007 8:11:12 AM   
balsampear

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker


Horribly dated? Battlefront itself is based on a UI and graphics going back to The Ardennes Offensive published in 1997.




It can be said that, you have not played this game.......These two games is completely dissimilar

TOAW,PZC,BII,BF,all are great games

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 10
RE: A game for me ? - 5/21/2007 9:14:39 AM   
Chris Merchant


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quote:

Horribly dated? Battlefront itself is based on a UI and graphics going back to The Ardennes Offensive published in 1997.


I'd suggest that the approach of building upon a good UI and improving with each release is a solid plan for overall product improvement where manpower and funding are limited.

We could say the above also applies to the latest iteration of John Tillers games such as the Panzer Campaigns series - based upon a UI of the older Campaign Series which were based on the Battleground series, which surfaced around the same time as TAO v1.0.

Cheers Chris

(in reply to balsampear)
Post #: 11
RE: A game for me ? - 5/21/2007 10:36:53 AM   
Adam Parker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant


quote:

Horribly dated? Battlefront itself is based on a UI and graphics going back to The Ardennes Offensive published in 1997.


I'd suggest that the approach of building upon a good UI and improving with each release is a solid plan


Spot on Chris. I'm just sick of fools who rubbish one company whilst portraying others as different.

I am a big fan of nice, fresh, workable graphics but to call PzC "horribly outdated" is just the same crap regurgitated from the fools on the News Group who'd complain about 3 wargames covering the three different campaigns for Kharkov - because the terrain looks all the same.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

We could say the above also applies to the latest iteration of John Tillers games such as the Panzer Campaigns series - based upon a UI of the older Campaign Series which were based on the Battleground series, which surfaced around the same time as TAO v1.0.


Yes that's the point the poster missed.

(in reply to Chris Merchant)
Post #: 12
RE: A game for me ? - 5/21/2007 12:29:51 PM   
GMAIL

 

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I just saw that Battles in Normandy has a demo with a tutorial. I think that this will give me a good idea if the games of the series are for me.

Thank you all for helping

(in reply to GMAIL)
Post #: 13
RE: A game for me ? - 5/21/2007 12:39:36 PM   
Chris Merchant


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quote:

Yes that's the point the poster missed.


errr..


whoosh!

And apply that to my entire post

Cheers Chris

(in reply to GMAIL)
Post #: 14
RE: A game for me ? - 5/21/2007 5:01:11 PM   
hank

 

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One quick comment after playing through several sce's in BF.  The time scale was referred to as being way out of whack.  I think sce's for BF would be more appropriate at 8 hour turns; 2 daylight turns and one night turn (for each day).  Night turns were modelled in one or two of the BiN custom sce's and IMHO having night turns indirectly helps with immersion. 

I still enjoy playing PzC battles.  Even with all the criticism HPS gets for costs, UI, etc. its still a great game.  All other games like PzC should strive to get their OOB's and map research to the level PzC is at.  I'll come to PzC's defense long before I'd bash it.

Now TOAW is a different story.  I got fed up with TOAW after playing many many games and several pbem games.  I don't like the interface at all.  I bought the game twice, the first back when Win98 was the OS of choice and last year when TOAW III came out.  There's people who will tell you its the game all others are compared against.  I don't think so.  Its not a bad game its just not my cup of tea (its the least immersive of all)

not sure this helps .... but in closing, I like BF.  I liked KP and BiN also.  I play BF most, PzC second ... and Flashpoint Germany/SPWaW/toaw/etc. all have been pushed to the back.   ... and when I'm not playing map based strategy games ... its Pacific Fighters.  PF is a great form of therapy ... especially playing in wonder woman mode (cockpit off) ... its like a flying dream   

(in reply to Chris Merchant)
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RE: A game for me ? - 5/21/2007 9:08:37 PM   
Howard7x


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Horribly dated? Battlefront itself is based on a UI and graphics going back to The Ardennes Offensive published in 1997.

I'm just sick of fools who rubbish one company whilst portraying others as different.

I am a big fan of nice, fresh, workable graphics but to call PzC "horribly outdated" is just the same crap regurgitated from the fools on the News Group who'd complain about 3 wargames covering the three different campaigns for Kharkov - because the terrain looks all the same.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

We could say the above also applies to the latest iteration of John Tillers games such as the Panzer Campaigns series - based upon a UI of the older Campaign Series which were based on the Battleground series, which surfaced around the same time as TAO v1.0.




Ok, now im not going to reply to another one of your posts Adam as your obviously a bit hot headed and cannot take anothers opinion on a computer game. I posted my point of view and i didnt agree with yours. Simple as that.

Being called a fool for my opinion clearly points out your mentality.

Calling PzC graphics and interface "horribly outdated" is not just the same crap regurgitated from another newsgroup. Its a fact. Its an old engine, i didnt say it was a bad game and i even pointed out that some will love its under the hood depth, i just cant bare looking at it anymore, gaming has moved on.

Im not saying BF/BII/BIN are exactly cutting edge, but the graphics actually drew me to the game as much as its other features. And they are a big step forward from TAO v1.0, PzC looks exactly the same as Battlegrounds did 12 years ago. Yeah sure PzC has alot of scenarios, but so did Eastern/Western front and all the old Battleground games (of which i own most of them by the way) which were even at the time, fairly sub standard graphics compared with games like bluebytes battle isle which was again a lot less complex but still engaging (like the DB series, which was the point I was trying to make to GMAIL).

Id like to see JT's games move forward, right now, they are not. BF was a step forward from DB and i highly recommend the game if your looking for something less complex and a little easier to look at.

< Message edited by Howard7x -- 5/21/2007 9:33:20 PM >

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 16
RE: A game for me ? - 5/22/2007 3:40:37 AM   
Joe 98


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GMAIL

In the Matrix games search engine Battlefront appears as a "tactical"





In my view it is Operational.






quote:

ORIGINAL: GMAIL

Do you think that Battlefront could be a smoothest (and more immersing ) introduction to the tactical/operational level than TOAW or the Panzer Campaigns series ?




Yes, much smoother.

There is a lot of information in Battlefront to absorb but the info is at your finger tips and easy to find.


Yes more immersion. In Battlefront you are fighting the battle and its very absorbing.

I see you downloaded the demo to BiN. Battlefront feels very similar but it has many improvements.

Attack supply and defence supply are handled differently. An offensive can now stall as supplies run low as they did historically,

When units enter the map they no longer enter at the same place and same turn from game to game. The controlling player now chooses when and where they enter (within limits).

The armour / infantry roles and cooperation is historically accurate.

The airforce and artillery units now damage enemy units in preparation for an assault.

This is a terrific operational game. If it had lots and lots of scenarios wargamers would agree it is the best operational game. Alas this provides ammunition to fanboys of other games.

(in reply to Howard7x)
Post #: 17
RE: A game for me ? - 5/31/2007 6:17:19 AM   
Adam Parker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

This is a terrific operational game. If it had lots and lots of scenarios wargamers would agree it is the best operational game. Alas this provides ammunition to fanboys of other games.


?

(in reply to Joe 98)
Post #: 18
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