Matrix Games Forums

To End All Wars: Video, AAR and Interview!Ageod's To End All Wars: Video, AAR and Interview!To End All Wars: Artillery Battle Academy 2: Eastern Front - End of Early Access Space Program Manager unveils its multiplayer modes Another update for Commander: The Great War!Distant Worlds: Universe gets a new updateDeal of the Week: Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich Advanced Tactics Gold is coming to SteamMatrix Games now speaks German!
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: AI for MWiF - China

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> RE: AI for MWiF - China Page: <<   < prev  4 5 [6] 7 8   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/22/2011 7:59:02 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 1413
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Since I've been thinking a bit about other major powers' strategic bombing options, I figured I should bring up China's.

The Chinese will usually rely on lend-lease LND4 for strategic bombing (the two paltry 5-range LND3 with 1 strat factor apiece in their force pools being on the inadequate side). With the WiF base and Planes in Flames units they can get two 9-range LND4 from the US with 6 strat factors and extended range option, and one 11-range LND4 from the USSR with 5 strat factors and ATR capability. Given the small size of the Chinese air force (they only get two other lend-lease bombers, period, if I am not mistaken), it is not unreasonable to suggest that a Chinese side which is not too crippled early on will have all three of these LND4 on the map.

The most likely targets for Chinese strategic bombing are the red factories in Canton & Shanghai. The best forward bases to strike these, if playing with the extra cities, are Chihkiang and Ichang; if these are occupied by the Japanese then Chungking or Kweiyang will have to do.

If the Chinese can muster all three LND4 into a raid that can burn down a factory, I personally see no reason not to try. Unless they do exceptionally well, the Chinese will probably not recapture either city until quite late in a game (if ever!).

Less likely targets (because the Nationalists need to make significant late-war gains to be in range to hit them) are the factories in Manchuria or even Japan.

A secondary purpose of the Chinese strategic air campaign is to tie down Japanese FTR to defending these targets when the Japanese would rather have them near the front or fighting the US/CW/USSR, or to force Japan to decide between committing FTR against some combination of port strikes, naval air, tactical strikes, or strategic raids (or even better, fail to commit the FTR against any of these for fear of losing use of the FTR).

Nice. Thanks.

Do you think you could come up with general criteria for when to perform (or threaten to perform) strategic bombing? It would be nice to make one rule/script that could be used by all major powers. Historically, the Britsh bombed at night and the US during the day. Perhaps that should also be part of the decision making process - along with when to split a strong strategic bombing group so they go after more than 1 target.


To get people started on a general criteria for when to perform strategic bombing I made this simple flowchart.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 151
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/22/2011 10:07:24 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1615
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Start

Set switch to Day bombing

If target unprotected go to Bomb

Target is Protected If Escort possible go to Check Odds

Night Bombing Change switch from Day Bombing to Night Bombing

Check Odds

If Odds less than -2 go to Bomb

If Day Bombing go to Night Bombing

If Night Bombing go to End

Bomb

End




You only do Yes/No using the “Interrogative symbol” in a flow chart.

You need 5 “Interrogative symbols” in your flow chart.

Did I ever mention I was a Documentation Analyst and have done more system and program flow charts than you could believe?




< Message edited by Extraneous -- 8/22/2011 10:15:40 PM >


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 152
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/23/2011 9:56:08 AM   
Red Prince


Posts: 3572
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline
quote:

You only do Yes/No using the “Interrogative symbol” in a flow chart.

You need 5 “Interrogative symbols” in your flow chart.

What exactly is an "Interrogative symbol"?

In my view, while I apologize for bastardizing the proper system, if it is easily understood by the audience, then I don't really care how it is displayed. This, of course, is the opinion of a layman.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 153
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/23/2011 12:56:24 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1615
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

You only do Yes/No using the “Interrogative symbol” in a flow chart.

You need 5 “Interrogative symbols” in your flow chart.

What exactly is an "Interrogative symbol"?

In my view, while I apologize for bastardizing the proper system, if it is easily understood by the audience, then I don't really care how it is displayed. This, of course, is the opinion of a layman.



The "Diamond" shaped box with the question inside.

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 154
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/23/2011 1:57:38 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 1413
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline
Moved to new generic strat bombing thread.

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 8/23/2011 2:30:36 PM >


_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 155
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/23/2011 2:11:06 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2162
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
I suggest moving the strategic bombing flowchart & follow-up over to the new generic strat bombing thread.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 156
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/23/2011 3:37:31 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1615
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
I'm not going to say any more about your Logic Flowchart.

I'm going to play nice

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 157
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/16/2013 6:37:34 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2162
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
With regards to the following from the US thread:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

pauldernyck:

The +.25 per year could be interpreted the same way you have jokingly interpreted +.25 per turn (just not as extreme )

At any rate, the text Extraneous uses is copy/paste from RaW.

I am not aware of any interpretation of this rule other than:
"China's base production multiple increases by .25" (so they would have, using Hitler's War, a base multiple of .5 in 1939, .75 in 1940/41, 1 in 1942/43, and 1.25 in 1944/45)

The actual text of the rule is:
quote:

Option 49: (Hitler's war) Replace notes (b), (d) and (e) of the Production Multiples Table with:
(b) +0.25 to China each turn;
(d) +0.25 to the USSR while Germany and the USSR are at war with each other.
Using this option, major powers no longer receive a bonus for an in supply enemy unit in their home country, and the USSR no longer receives any bonuses based on the cities they control.



But (a), (b), (d), and (e) are additions to the Production Multiple base aren't they?

I believe that these increases only occur during each turn.

Think of it this way if China was at peace and Japan was not in China then China's Production Multiple would be 0.25.

But in 1939 China is at war with Japan and Japan is in China. So China's Production Multiple is a minimum of 0.50 and a maximum of 0.75.


PMB = For 1939 China's Production Multiple Base is 0.25.
A = +0.25 if enemy made any land attacks in your home country (not Siberia and only UK counts for the CW) this turn
B = +0.25 to China each turn


If Japan does not attack China during the turn then China would get:
(b) +0.25 to China each turn;

Production Multiple = PMB + A
China's production multiple during this turn only would be 0.50.


If Japan attacks China during the turn China would get:
(a) +0.25 if enemy made any land attacks in your home country (not Siberia and only UK counts for the CW) this turn;
(b) +0.25 to China each turn;

Production Multiple = PMB + A + B
China's production multiple during this turn only would be 0.75.


I don't believe that these increases accumulate to the base each turn.

New PMB = Old PMB + A
Or
New PMB = Old PMB + A + B




There does not appear to be any difference in the final numbers.

In 1939, when playing without the Hitler's War option, China's base production multiple is 0.25.

(1) While in-supply enemy units are occupying hexes in home country China during any production step, China receives a bonus of 0.25 to its production multiple.
(2) China also receives a bonus of 0.25 during the production step of any turn in which Japan launches a land attack against a hex in China.

So in any turn in 1939 where both (1) and (2) are true, China's production multiple is 0.75.


When playing with Hitler's War, China's base production multiple is 0.25.

(1) China no longer receives a bonus of 0.25 to its production multiple for enemy units occupying hexes in the China home country.
(2) China also receives a bonus of 0.25 during the production step of any turn in which Japan launches a land attack against a hex in China.
(3) China receives a bonus of 0.25 to its production multiple in each production step.

Items (1) and (3) are always true, so whatever Japan does, in 1939 China's production multiple is at least 0.5, and if Japan launches land attacks (that is, (2) is true), China's production multiple is 0.75.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 158
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/16/2013 10:30:31 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1615
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
I have included the rest of option 49.

As you can see it really changes what happens to the other major powers production multiples when they have enemy units in their home countries.


quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0
13.6.3 Production multiples
Each major power has an initial production multiple. These rise progressively during the game. Essentially, this reflects an increasing national industrial output and an increasing share of that output being devoted to military uses. Production multiples are listed on the Production Multiples Chart.

(a) +0.25 if enemy made any land attacks in your home country (not Siberia and only UK counts for the CW) this turn;
(b) +0.25 while an in-supply enemy land unit is in your home country (not Siberia, and only UK counts for the CW).
(c) +0.25 ~ US entry opt. 22; +0.25 ~ US entry opt. 34; +0.25 ~ war; +0.25 ~ total war; +0.25 each 6 turns after US entry opt. 34.
(d) +0.25 from 1942 onwards if Minsk or Kiev are Russian controlled.
(e) +0.25 from 1943 onwards if Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad are Russian controlled.

Increase a major power’s production multiple by 0.25 if there is an in supply enemy unit in the major power¹s current home country (an unconquered UK only in the case of the Commonwealth and not Siberia in the case of the USSR).

Increase a major power’s production multiple by 0.25 if an enemy unit took part during the turn in a land attack (not overrun) against any friendly land unit (including partisans and notional units) in the major power¹s current home country (an unconquered UK only in the case of the Commonwealth and not Siberia in the case of the USSR).

Increase the USA’s production multiple:
By 0.25 when the US chooses entry option 22 Gear up production.
By 0.25 when the US chooses entry option 34 Pass War Appropriations Bill.
By 0.25 when the US is at war with any Axis major power.
By 0.25 when the US is at war with every Axis major power that has not yet been completely conquered.
By 0.25 on the anniversary (i.e. after every 6 turns) of the turn the US selected entry option 34 Pass War Appropriations Bill.

quote:

EDITED Option 49: (Hitler’s war) Replace Production Multiples Notes listed on the Production Multiples Chart with:
(a) +0.25 if enemy made any land attacks in your home country (not Siberia and only UK counts for the CW) this turn;
(b) +0.25 to China each turn;
(c) +0.25 ~ US entry opt. 22; +0.25 ~ US entry opt. 34; +0.25 ~ war; +0.25 ~ total war; +0.25 each 6 turns after US entry opt. 34.
(d) +0.25 to the USSR while Germany and the USSR are at war with each other.

Using this option, major powers no longer receive a bonus for an in supply enemy unit in their home country, and the USSR no longer receives any bonuses based on the cities they control.

quote:

13.3.2 US entry options
30 Lend lease to USSR - The US, CW and/or France can give or receive 1 build point each per turn to or from the USSR in future turns even if the USSR is neutral (5 each per turn while Germany and the USSR are at war and unlimited while the US is also at war with Germany). You can only choose this option if you have already chosen entry option 19 Resources to USSR. US convoy points can’t be used to transport these build points while the US is a neutral major power.

Option 49: (Hitler’s war) From now until Germany and the Soviet Union are at war, the Soviets pick an extra marker during the entry marker step of each turn. After looking at the marker, they can treat it as a normal marker (offensively or defensively) or stack it face down on any of their useable factory stacks. Once placed they may never be moved even if the hex becomes controlled by another major power.

During their first production step at war with Germany, turn all entry markers on factory stacks face up. These markers are converted into saved build points (AfA option 31 ~ see 13.6.8 Saving build points (AfA option 31)) available for production or saved for future turns. If not playing AfA option 31, those extra build points must be spent immediately under the restrictions of 13.6.8 Saving build points (AfA option 31)and any excess after production are lost.








_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 159
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/17/2013 5:05:40 AM   
composer99


Posts: 2162
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
What does the effect of Hitler's War option on other major powers have to do with its effect on China? Based on the US thread the impression I had was that China's production multiple was the topic at hand.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 160
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/17/2013 10:02:56 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1615
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

What does the effect of Hitler's War option on other major powers have to do with its effect on China? Based on the US thread the impression I had was that China's production multiple was the topic at hand.


You moved the thread here. I thought you wanted to talk about it here.

It seamed odd to me but I went along with it.

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 161
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/17/2013 4:16:06 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2162
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
Yes, because the impression I had was that you wanted to discuss China specifically.

If there are any clarifications required in how the other major powers calculate their production multiples when playing with either RAW or Hitler's War they can be placed in either their individual AI threads or the general rules questions/clarifications thread.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 162
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/25/2013 3:02:54 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1615
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
Are Wenchow, Foochow, Amoy, and Swatow considered cities or just minor ports?

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 163
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/25/2013 4:29:46 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2162
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
Unless their status has changed since the last screenshot Steve posted, they are as shown on the map:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here are teh [sic] start lines in southern China for the same time period. This also shows the addition of the "river road" from Nanking to Nanchang, Wuhan, and Ichang. Data by Patrice, included in version 10.00.





_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 164
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/26/2013 1:10:42 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1615
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
So as the USA player you're thinking about sending lend lease to China.

First you must have selected USA entry options 9 Resources to China and 17 Lend lease to China.

quote:

9. Resources to China (Ja)
Allied major powers can’t give resources to China until you choose this entry option. In future turns, each major power can give up to 5 resources a turn (no limit once that major power is at war with Japan). The US can use its convoy points to transport resources to China from the USA.

Choosing this entry option opens the Burma Road. It then counts as a railway for moving resources and build points (only) into China (not out). The scenario information (see 24 Re-open Burma Road) will tell you whether the Burma Road starts the game open or closed.

17. Lend lease to China (Ja) (There is a 50% chance that a USA (Ja) entry pool chit will be moved to the USA (Ja) tension pool)
Each Allied major power can give up to 5 build points a turn to China (see 13.6.4 Lend lease). The US can use its convoy points to transport build points to China from the USA. This entry option can only be chosen if you have already chosen USA entry option 9 Resources to China.



Now how do you get the BP to China? China controls no major ports and the USSR has no rail connection to China. So it must go through French Indo-China or Burma.

First the BP needs to be transported by sea to a major port and then transported by rail to a Chinese city.


The closest major port is Hanoi, French Indo-China (before Vichy is established or France is conquered).

The shortest rout to Hanoi, French Indo-China requires 5x CP and is subject to Search & Seizure:
From the major port of San Diego, California > 1x CP West Coast > Mendocino > 1x CP Central Pacific Ocean > 1x CP The Marianas > 1x CP The Bismarck Sea > 1x CP South China Sea > the major port of Hanoi, French Indo-China > by rail to a Chinese city


The next closest major port is Rangoon, Burma (CW).

The shortest rout to Rangoon, Burma requires 6x CP and is subject to Search & Seizure:
From the major port of San Diego, California > 1x CP West Coast > Mendocino > 1x CP Central Pacific Ocean > 1x CP The Marianas > 1x CP The Bismarck Sea > 1x CP South China Sea > 1x CP Bay of Bengal > the major port of Rangoon, Burma > by rail to a Chinese city

To make a long story short I don't see a reason to attempt to ship BP to China.




_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 165
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/26/2013 2:01:07 AM   
composer99


Posts: 2162
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
The US can lend a resource from the Philippines. If build points is what the Allies want to lend, let the Commonwealth lend them from India (1 sea area) or Australia (3 sea area) and if the CW wants to keep up its production the US can lend the CW build points to compensate.

Incidentally, the convoy route from the US to China is long:
- West Coast
- Mendocino
- Hawai'ian Islands (or Christmas Islands)
- Central Pacific (or The Marshalls)
- Japanese Coast (or The Marianas)
- China Sea (or Bismarck Sea)
- South China Sea

for 7 sea areas to ship to Indochina, or 8 sea areas if you want to extend the line further to Bay of Bengal to ship via Burma.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 166
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/26/2013 4:40:44 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 4150
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: online
Doesn't have to go to a major port. It can arrive at a minor port as long as there is a rail and/or road connection from there to a factory if it's a resource, or to a city if it's a BP.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 1/26/2013 4:41:33 AM >


_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 167
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/26/2013 10:50:13 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1615
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

The US can lend a resource from the Philippines. If build points is what the Allies want to lend, let the Commonwealth lend them from India (1 sea area) or Australia (3 sea area) and if the CW wants to keep up its production the US can lend the CW build points to compensate.

Incidentally, the convoy route from the US to China is long:
- West Coast
- Mendocino
- Hawai'ian Islands (or Christmas Islands)
- Central Pacific (or The Marshalls)
- Japanese Coast (or The Marianas)
- China Sea (or Bismarck Sea)
- South China Sea

For 7 sea areas to ship to Indochina, or 8 sea areas if you want to extend the line further to Bay of Bengal to ship via Burma.


Thanks for the correction, you are right about the sea zones.


The French are in a better position to lend resources from Hanoi, French Indo-China than the USA is from the Philippines.

Question: Would Vichy France be required to honor a French trade agreement to China if it were made before Vichy was established?


The Philippine resource is better used in the Japan/USA trade agreement. That way the USA saves CP and Oil.

The CW would have to go through the Bay of Bengal any way using CP and BP they probably can't afford to use.


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Doesn't have to go to a major port. It can arrive at a minor port as long as there is a rail and/or road connection from there to a factory if it's a resource, or to a city if it's a BP.


You will note the only access to rail lines (and the Burma road) to China go through the major ports of Hanoi, French Indo-China and Rangoon, Burma.




_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 168
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/26/2013 2:34:25 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 3025
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Question: Would Vichy France be required to honor a French trade agreement to China if it were made before Vichy was established?



RAW:
5. Lending Stage
In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or
lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4) to another major power on the
same side this turn.

The answer is therefore "no", since Vichy is on the Axis side and China is on the allied side.

RAW: (5)
You can only give resources (or build points) if you are an active
major power and you can only give them to another active major
power.

RAW: (17.1)
Vichy France is a neutral major power run by the Axis major power
that installed the Vichy government.

Since Vichy France is neutral, he can't give resources to China.

RAW:
Vichy France must also be hostile to lend to other major powers (see 17.4).

All this means that a trade agreement between China and Vichy doesn't exist, the moment Vichy France is installed. There is, however, a trade agreement with the Free French and they should honor it (or cancel it if they want to). They can, because installment of Vichy comes after the production phase and before the lending resource stage of the next turn.





< Message edited by Centuur -- 1/26/2013 2:35:39 PM >


_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 169
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/26/2013 5:08:36 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 4150
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Doesn't have to go to a major port. It can arrive at a minor port as long as there is a rail and/or road connection from there to a factory if it's a resource, or to a city if it's a BP.


You will note the only access to rail lines (and the Burma road) to China go through the major ports of Hanoi, French Indo-China and Rangoon, Burma.


And as you noted about lending the resource from India, it would go through the Bay of Bengal and land at...?

Oh yeah - Rangoon. And you will note Rangoon is a minor port... eventually.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 170
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/26/2013 5:38:11 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1615
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Doesn't have to go to a major port. It can arrive at a minor port as long as there is a rail and/or road connection from there to a factory if it's a resource, or to a city if it's a BP.


You will note the only access to rail lines (and the Burma road) to China go through the major ports of Hanoi, French Indo-China and Rangoon, Burma.


And as you noted about lending the resource from India, it would go through the Bay of Bengal and land at...?

Oh yeah - Rangoon. And you will note Rangoon is a minor port... eventually.


> 1x CP Bay of Bengal > the minor port of Rangoon, Burma > by rail to a Chinese city


Remember I cut and paste.

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 171
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/26/2013 6:45:25 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1615
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Question: Would Vichy France be required to honor a French trade agreement to China if it were made before Vichy was established?



RAW:
5. Lending Stage
In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4) to another major power on the same side this turn.

The answer is therefore "no", since Vichy is on the Axis side and China is on the allied side.

RAW: (5)
You can only give resources (or build points) if you are an active major power and you can only give them to another active major power.

RAW: (17.1)
Vichy France is a neutral major power run by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government.

Since Vichy France is neutral, he can't give resources to China.

RAW:
Vichy France must also be hostile to lend to other major powers (see 17.4).

All this means that a trade agreement between China and Vichy doesn't exist, the moment Vichy France is installed. There is, however, a trade agreement with the Free French and they should honor it (or cancel it if they want to). They can, because installment of Vichy comes after the production phase and before the lending resource stage of the next turn.




5. Lending Stage

In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4 Lend lease) to another major power on the same side this turn.

We are not announcing a new trade agreement we are working with an existing trade agreement.

You can only give resources (or build points) if you are an active major power and you can only give them to another active major power (exceptions: Trade agreements ~ see 5.1, US entry options ~ see 13.3.2 US entry options and lending to Vichy France ~ see 17.4 Running Vichy France). Vichy France must also be hostile to lend to other major powers (see 17.4 Running Vichy France).

Vichy France is an exception it must be hostile to lend lease resources and build points.



There are 2 ways to make Vichy hostile:
1) Invade metropolitan Vichy France (which would not meaningful in this situation).
2) 17.3 Units
French units

The Axis major power installing the Vichy Government now moves every French controlled unit at sea (even those face-down) to the nearest Vichy or Free French hex (port for naval units and their cargoes) within range in which they may stack. If naval units cannot return to a port within range, they are destroyed.

Next, the same player moves every French controlled land or aircraft unit in a hex controlled by an Axis major power to the nearest hex controlled by Vichy France or Free-France. Rebase every French controlled naval unit in such a hex to the nearest port within double their range controlled by Vichy France or Free France. They are destroyed if this is not possible.

The same player moves any French controlled units in hexes controlled by an Allied major power. French controlled naval units rebase at double their range, and French controlled land and air units are moved to the nearest Vichy France or Free-French hex. Alternatively, An Allied major power can destroy every French controlled unit in its territory. If it does so, Vichy France is hostile to that major power (see 17.5 Combat with Vichy).

So when Vichy is being established it could be hostile.

But since the Axis major power that installed Vichy controls Vichy they could nullify the trade agreement.

So if Free France controls French Indo-China is the trade agreement void?



< Message edited by Extraneous -- 1/26/2013 6:54:39 PM >


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 172
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/26/2013 8:23:42 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 3025
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
There is a difference between trade agreements and the giving of resources or lend-leasing of build points according to RAW:

RAW:
5.1 Trade agreements
Trade agreements are agreements automatically in place between
countries at the start of each game. They continue until either country
involved in the trade agreement is completely conquered or as
specified below.

After this, all trade agreements are specified.
A trade agreement at start of the game doesn't exist between France and China. Therefore, there is no trade agreement.

This means that any other lending of build points or resources is done in the lending stage. On that point, RAW is pretty clear:

RAW: 5.0
In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4 Lend lease) to another major power on the same side this turn.

So every turn, whenever you've agreed on giving those resources or build point for the long run, the owner of those points can cancel it. The other party involved can only hope that he or she will get those resources...

So whether or not Vichy is hostile, the Euroaxis isn't allowed to send resources to China, since they are not on the same side, because at every lending stage, this should be checked. Even if this was allowed (and it isn't), than the Euroaxis could simply stop sending the resource, since they own it and every turn the owner of a resource decides whether or not to send it to another Major Power.
And it is up to the Free French player, to provide the resource or not, since there is no trade agreement at start of the game...


< Message edited by Centuur -- 1/26/2013 8:28:05 PM >


_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 173
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/26/2013 8:37:35 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2162
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
Trade agreements among major powers on the same side do not exist in WiF. Instead major powers on the same side announce, during the Lending phase, whether they are lending any resources, oil, or build points to eligible recipients and, if so, in what quantity.

First paragraph of §5:
quote:

In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4) to another major power on the same side this turn. [Emphasis mine.]


Trade agreements can exist between major powers on opposing sides, such as the pre-set 1939 trade agreements between the USSR and Germany or the US and Japan. In WiF:FE, major powers could also agree to a trade agreement as part of a peace treaty.

See first paragraph of §13.7.3:
quote:

Two major powers at war can agree to come to peace on any terms mutually acceptable (except for transferring units).


"Any terms acceptable" allows such things as trade agreements. However, my understanding is that MWiF does not provide functionality for major powers mutually coming to peace except for, if the optional rule is selected, the USSR & Japan.

At any rate, a major power can't lend to a major power on the other side.

So, bottom line: Vichy France can never lend resources to China.

If France had announced it would lend a resource to China during the Lending Phase (RAW §5) of, say, the May/June 1940 turn, and committed the resource in Indochina to meet this commitment during the Production Step (RAW §13.6), all would be well for that turn. If, however during the turn the Germans capture Paris, they may establish Vichy France during the Peace step (§13.7). So from that point forward, in the event Indochina became a Vichy-controlled country, that resource would no longer be available to be lent to China.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 174
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/27/2013 3:02:02 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1615
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
Then this is what occurs.

In this case I am assuming Vichy, France controls French Indo-china.

Each turn the USA wants to give resources or Lend lease BP to China (a major power cannot give or receive resources and BP to the same major power in the same turn).

During The Lending Resource Stage
The USA declares if they are giving resources or Lend leasing BP to China (but not how many).

During One of the Impulses
If the Japanese want to perform 13.3.3 US entry action ~ 34 Japan executes a search and seizure:
1) They must at some time during one of the Impulses sail a SCS, CV, or SUB into the Bay of Bengal sea zone. For each search and seizure they wish to attempt.
2) These ships and/or submarines must stay at sea until the next turn.

During The End of Turn Stage
Production step
The Japanese can now execute its search and seizures.
Any resources or BP not seized will arrive in Rangoon, Burma to be moved by rail (or the Burma Road) to a factory for resources or a city for BP in China.

The next turn
The ships and/or submarines that stayed at sea must return to port.



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 175
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/27/2013 6:32:20 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 4150
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Then this is what occurs.

In this case I am assuming Vichy, France controls French Indo-china.

Each turn the USA wants to give resources or Lend lease BP to China (a major power cannot give or receive resources and BP to the same major power in the same turn).

To clarify: a major power can give resources to and receive BP from the same major power, or vice versa. And a major power can give both resources (including oil) and BP to the same major power.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

During The Lending Resource Stage
The USA declares if they are giving resources or Lend leasing BP to China (but not how many).

No, all lending major powers must each specify exactly how many resources (if any), and separately how many oil (if any) and how many BPs (if any), they are lending and to whom.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
During One of the Impulses
If the Japanese want to perform 13.3.3 US entry action ~ 34 Japan executes a search and seizure:
1) They must at some time during one of the Impulses sail a SCS, CV, or SUB into the Bay of Bengal sea zone. For each search and seizure they wish to attempt.
2) These ships and/or submarines must stay at sea until the next turn.
During The End of Turn Stage
Production step
The Japanese can now execute its search and seizures.
Any resources or BP not seized will arrive in Rangoon, Burma to be moved by rail (or the Burma Road) to a factory for resources or a city for BP in China.

To clarify: The Japanese don't get them for themselves, they only prevent them going to China.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
The next turn
The ships and/or submarines that stayed at sea must return to port.

Only if they are in the zero box at the end of the turn. Nothing stops them from staying out at sea if they aren't.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 1/27/2013 6:34:43 PM >


_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 176
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/28/2013 1:39:59 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1615
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
To clarify: a major power can give resources to and receive BP from the same major power, or vice versa. And a major power can give both resources (including oil) and BP to the same major power.

I will not contest this even though the rules are ambiguous.

quote:

5. Lending Stage
1) In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4 Lend lease) to another major power on the same side this turn.


2) You cannot give resources to a major power in the same turn as it is giving resources to you. However, you can give resources to a major power in the same turn as another major power gives resources to you. The same restrictions apply to lend leasing build points. You may however give build points to a major power in the same turn you receive resources from that major power or vice versa.

quote:

When you have can and cannot spelled out for you in #2 It makes you wonder if in #1 that "another major power" should have been "other major powers".

You cannot:
Give resources to a major power in the same turn as it is giving resources to you.
Lend lease build points to major powers in the same turn as those major powers lend lease build points to you.

You can:
Give resources to a major power in the same turn as another major power gives resources to you.
Lend lease build points to a major power in the same turn as another major power lend leases build points to you.
Lend lease build points to a major power in the same turn you receive resources from that major power or vice versa.





No, all lending major powers must each specify exactly how many resources (if any), and separately how many oil (if any) and how many BPs (if any), they are lending and to whom.

I will not contest this even though according to the rules I could announce: "I am lend leasing a build Point and giving resources to China one will be oil". And then lend lease one BP along with giving 1 resource and 1 oil to China.



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 177
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/28/2013 9:51:27 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 4150
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: online
There are penalties when anything you announce as a lend does not get to its destination. The penalty is you lose what you lent anyway. If the exact quantity of what is to be lent is not announced, then how can that penalty be assessed?

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 178
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/29/2013 12:16:33 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1615
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
Count the CP's and tankers in the convoy line.

If there are enough to ships to give more than 1 oil/resource to China then allocate enough ships to cover the situation with your Search & seizure.

How do you know what resources are lost in a submarine attack and from which destination if you play with food in flames?



While we are at it are you only allowed to give resources and lend lease BP to ONE major power a turn?


quote:

In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4 Lend lease) to another major power on the same side this turn.





_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 179
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 1/29/2013 1:33:23 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2162
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

While we are at it are you only allowed to give resources and lend lease BP to ONE major power a turn?


The colloquial style of RAW rears its ugly head again.

Extraneous: Do you think that is a reasonable interpretation of that rule, based on your playing experience and/or reading threads on this forum or discussions & after action reports on the wifdiscussion list (or other sites such as BoardGameGeek or Consimworld)?

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 180
Page:   <<   < prev  4 5 [6] 7 8   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> RE: AI for MWiF - China Page: <<   < prev  4 5 [6] 7 8   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.180