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RE: AI for MWiF - China

 
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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 7/13/2009 1:12:58 PM   
Froonp


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No navy for China.

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 7/13/2009 10:44:48 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

No navy for China.


Not to start with but in two recent games the land war has been stalemated in China and then as Japan starts to get strangled, and I see that the Chinese can take back Canton, I start building all the subs and CONV. With the FTC rules it is hard to maximize the value of a successful China to the rest of the Allies, so I've found this is a good way. Always nice to have CONV that can move as well as subs that can initiate search using somebody else's action limit.

If the conquest of Canton is delayed, the units just ride the spiral until it falls.

Mind you, another sweet tactic is to take the Chinese red factories back with U.S. and CW units and repair them and use their production for non-Chinese units.

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 7/13/2009 11:26:18 PM   
sajbalk


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Recommend also no building a navy for China.

If the front has stalemated, you should look to build CH air to activate for the US or some O Chits. Given the fluidity of the front on the newly scaled map, I do not think stalemates are any threat in this theater.





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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 7/14/2009 4:54:03 PM   
composer99


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I think the priorities for Chinese production in the later stages are:
1) Air units to strat Japanese targets, flip Japanese for Chinese/US/Soviet attacks, or activate searches in China/South China Seas on US land impulses (using the lend-lease NAV)
2) O-chits to bust up Japanese lines (if there are any on the new map in the late-game) or seize key strongholds
3) Lend-lease to USSR
4) Navy

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 7/14/2009 6:46:42 PM   
micheljq


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Subetai

There is an important possibility for the China - Japan theatre that MWIF allows for more than the boardgame, and that is mutual peace between China and Japan (this might have been discussed elsewhere but can't find it).  Why this might occur is addressed below.

CC and NC will have one AIO (which I agree with), but in a board game the CC are played by the RU (and the NC usually by the US). This means that if (for whatever reason) the JP player offers a peace, it rarely happens, because its not in the RU or US interest for a peace. The point of this post is to suggest that if the JP players offers a peace (lets say back to 1936 borders - so just Manchuria and none of Occupied China), that the Chinese AIO (CC and NC) would most times agree. (Happy to have historial discussion off line).

The CC and NC would then try to occupy the vacated cities, and importantly Shanghai (Victory City). This is then consistent with the AIO trying to do the best for ITSELF (and not be abused by the RU or US player)!

Why would JP offer this? Cost benefit analysis! The cost to conquer, or at least capture more resources in China, is high. As is the effort to garrison China. The JP player could well assess that, in say early 1942 (to use historial timelines) that the new resources captured (importantly oil - none in China) in the south are enough to maintain the war effort (bearing in mind a reduced land unit requirement).

THis is not a gamey strategy, but entirely plausable and within the rules of the game.



I hope the chinese player will not be that stupid, as to sign peace with Japan.


< Message edited by micheljq -- 7/14/2009 7:22:51 PM >

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 7/14/2009 7:08:30 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I think the priorities for Chinese production in the later stages are:
1) Air units to strat Japanese targets, flip Japanese for Chinese/US/Soviet attacks, or activate searches in China/South China Seas on US land impulses (using the lend-lease NAV)
2) O-chits to bust up Japanese lines (if there are any on the new map in the late-game) or seize key strongholds
3) Lend-lease to USSR
4) Navy

Oh yes, the air units are first. As for lend lease to Russia, you are still limited to one resource and one build point and if there has been a Russo-Japanese war, they can take a lot of convoys to deliver. O-chits seem pricey for what can be accomplished with them.

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 7/14/2009 8:39:06 PM   
composer99


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Lend-lease to USSR can be managed through Manchuria if either you or the USSR has taken it. And once USA has (a) passed 'Lend-Lease to USSR and (b) gone to war with Germany you can lend all the bps you want.

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 7/14/2009 9:20:18 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Lend-lease to USSR can be managed through Manchuria if either you or the USSR has taken it. And once USA has (a) passed 'Lend-Lease to USSR and (b) gone to war with Germany you can lend all the bps you want.

No that is incorrect Christopher. China can never exceed the one and one limit. The US Entry options are for the US, France and the CW only, just like they say.

My mention of an earlier Russo-Japan war was to imply the route through Manchuria could be cut for a long time. I have seen games where the Japanese are on the ropes but had previously taken Vlad and Chita and all the rail hexes up to Irkutsk. With Japanese units in the mountains along that rail line, even OOS, it takes a long while to clear them out - especially if a Russo-Japan peace and pact was declared, since no Allied units can enter the pact area until Russia is able to break the garrison.

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 7/14/2009 10:25:53 PM   
composer99


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Hm. Have read through rule and you are correct. I did hear of some one actually doing that (and lending a lot of bps) so I guess they and their Axis opponents must have dropped the ball on the rules (not unheard of in WiF given the number of rules to remember).

All the same, if as the Chinese I get the opportunity to lend, over land, to USSR I would do that over building navy. Even subs take 1 year to build and if you start them in 1942-43 you probably won't need them by the time they arrive on the map.

If anything, as China I would built sealift over subs with the intention (as discussed on previous pages of this topic) of attacking Formosa. In 1944 if Japan is too strong for the US to send its Pacific fleet into the China Sea then the Chinese subs will be of little or no use, and if the Japanese are too weak to stop the US then the Chinese subs will be of little or no use.

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 7/14/2009 10:39:31 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Hm. Have read through rule and you are correct. I did hear of some one actually doing that (and lending a lot of bps) so I guess they and their Axis opponents must have dropped the ball on the rules (not unheard of in WiF given the number of rules to remember).

All the same, if as the Chinese I get the opportunity to lend, over land, to USSR I would do that over building navy. Even subs take 1 year to build and if you start them in 1942-43 you probably won't need them by the time they arrive on the map.

If anything, as China I would built sealift over subs with the intention (as discussed on previous pages of this topic) of attacking Formosa. In 1944 if Japan is too strong for the US to send its Pacific fleet into the China Sea then the Chinese subs will be of little or no use, and if the Japanese are too weak to stop the US then the Chinese subs will be of little or no use.

The easiest way to view Chinese builds late in the game is to evaluate which units the Allied side needs to fight the Axis.

Of course, if China is still engaged in land combat with Japan and has units in its force pool that can be valuable in that regard, those units should be built. But if we are talking about 'excess' build points, then taking a broader view of the Allied side as a whole should work best.

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 7/14/2009 11:22:32 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99


All the same, if as the Chinese I get the opportunity to lend, over land, to USSR I would do that over building navy. Even subs take 1 year to build and if you start them in 1942-43 you probably won't need them by the time they arrive on the map.

If anything, as China I would built sealift over subs with the intention (as discussed on previous pages of this topic) of attacking Formosa. In 1944 if Japan is too strong for the US to send its Pacific fleet into the China Sea then the Chinese subs will be of little or no use, and if the Japanese are too weak to stop the US then the Chinese subs will be of little or no use.

Of course I'd lend too, even if the stuff has to go through Persia - that's where the convoys help. But there will be 5 or 6 BPs left over.

The subs only take a year. When you try over and over to find that last Japanese CONV that is keeping mainland Asia in supply, it is really nice to declare a Chinese Combined and initiate search on an impulse when the US must take a Land.

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/10/2011 10:15:11 PM   
peskpesk


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Ideas on the AIOs Strategic Plan - China

China’s strategic planning is limited and they have to adjust its decisions depending on which strategic plan Japan has chosen. Specifically what the raising sun wants do to in china.

Japanese strategic options:

1) Historical:
• Try to establish a neutrality pact with the USSR.
• Attack China.
• Expand rapidly across the Pacific to create the historical co-prosperity sphere.

2) Early DOW USSR
• DOW the USSR early aiming to capture resources and the Vladivostok Factory.
• Then attack China, to contain them and capture resources.
• Expand rapidly across the Pacific to create the historical co-prosperity sphere.

3) Crush the Commonwealth / Commonwealth First, USA Second
• Try establish a neutrality pact with the USSR.
• Defend in China. China becomes a sideshow, and the Pacific war begins much sooner.
• DOW Commonwealth early and capture as many of its possessions as possible
• Later DOW the USA.

China also the have to face what agenda the Japanese have with their attacks in china.

Major Japanese Objective:
• Destroy the Communists
• Destroy the Nationalist

Minor Japanese Objective:
• Capture resources
• Keep Chinese forces from growing in strength


With the all the above in mind, a simple strategic plan and strategic plan transition could be like this for China:

Strategic plan #1 Defend against Japan stays in effect until:
(1) Japanese threaten core areas, in which case plan #2 goes into effect.
(2) The threat to Chinese holdings from Japan is extinguished, in which case plan #3 goes into effect.

Strategic plan #2 Defend core areas, stays in effect until:
(1) The threat to the core areas from Japan is extinguished, in which case plan #1 goes into effect.
(2) The situation is hopeless, in which case plan #4 goes into effect.

Strategic plan #3 Offensive against Japan, stays in effect until:
(1) There is a threat to Chinese holdings from Japan, in which case plan #1 goes into effect.

Strategic plan #4 Surrender China, stays in effect until:
(1) China is liberated, in which case plan #2 goes into effect.

Comments/what have I missed?

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 8/10/2011 10:20:35 PM >


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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/11/2011 10:32:35 AM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Ideas on the AIOs Strategic Plan - China

China’s strategic planning is limited and they have to adjust its decisions depending on which strategic plan Japan has chosen. Specifically what the raising sun wants do to in china.

Japanese strategic options:

1) Historical:
• Try to establish a neutrality pact with the USSR.
• Attack China.
• Expand rapidly across the Pacific to create the historical co-prosperity sphere.

2) Early DOW USSR
• DOW the USSR early aiming to capture resources and the Vladivostok Factory.
• Then attack China, to contain them and capture resources.
• Expand rapidly across the Pacific to create the historical co-prosperity sphere.

3) Crush the Commonwealth / Commonwealth First, USA Second
• Try establish a neutrality pact with the USSR.
• Defend in China. China becomes a sideshow, and the Pacific war begins much sooner.
• DOW Commonwealth early and capture as many of its possessions as possible
• Later DOW the USA.

China also the have to face what agenda the Japanese have with their attacks in china.

Major Japanese Objective:
• Destroy the Communists
• Destroy the Nationalist

Minor Japanese Objective:
• Capture resources
• Keep Chinese forces from growing in strength


With the all the above in mind, a simple strategic plan and strategic plan transition could be like this for China:

Strategic plan #1 Defend against Japan stays in effect until:
(1) Japanese threaten core areas, in which case plan #2 goes into effect.
(2) The threat to Chinese holdings from Japan is extinguished, in which case plan #3 goes into effect.

Strategic plan #2 Defend core areas, stays in effect until:
(1) The threat to the core areas from Japan is extinguished, in which case plan #1 goes into effect.
(2) The situation is hopeless, in which case plan #4 goes into effect.

Strategic plan #3 Offensive against Japan, stays in effect until:
(1) There is a threat to Chinese holdings from Japan, in which case plan #1 goes into effect.

Strategic plan #4 Surrender China, stays in effect until:
(1) China is liberated, in which case plan #2 goes into effect.

Comments/what have I missed?

The only thing I am curious about is the relative relationships between #1, #2, and #3. I assume it is Rough Parity, 1:2, and 2:1 respectively. Would there be value in adding another plan for later in the war? This might be used to indicate a much more aggressive attitude. It could be integrated into levels of Plan #3 Offensive. Or, perhaps:

Strategic plan #1 Defend against Japan stays in effect until:
(1) Japanese threaten core areas, in which case plan #2 goes into effect.
(2) The threat to Chinese holdings from Japan is reduced, in which case plan #3 goes into effect.
(3) The threat to Chinese holdings from Japan is extinguished, in which case plan #4 goes into effect.

Strategic plan #2 Defend core areas, stays in effect until:
(1) The threat to the core areas from Japan is extinguished, in which case plan #1 goes into effect.
(2) The situation is hopeless, in which case plan #5 goes into effect.

Strategic plan #3 Offensive against Japan, stays in effect until:
(1) There is a threat to Chinese holdings from Japan, in which case plan #1 goes into effect.
(2) The threat to Chinese holdings from Japan is extinguished, in which case plan #4 goes into effect.

Strategic plan #4 Victory Offensive against Japan, stays in effect until:
(1) There is a renewed possibility of threat to Chinese holdings from Japan, in which case plan #3 goes into effect.


Strategic plan #5 Surrender China, stays in effect until:
(1) China is liberated, in which case plan #2 goes into effect.


< Message edited by Red Prince -- 8/11/2011 10:35:02 AM >


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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/11/2011 6:30:31 PM   
peskpesk


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The strategic plan provides answers to many questions, but at “top” level perspective.

Things like:
* Which victory cities, and other important hexes, should be taken and/or defended (and when)?
* On which nations should the AIO declare war, when, and any associated conditions concerning same?
* Where are the expected areas of conflict, with whom, and what type of combat (land, naval, air, and/or convoys)?
* What are the strategic plan’s milestones and what is the time line for those milestones?
...

Forces strength ratio with the help of CV (Combat value) are one part to help estimate the current situation.

My suggestion for plan 1-2 was something like this.

Strategic plan #1 Defend against Japan
Goal: Defend frontline areas

China North Central, China East Central, China South Central and China Southern Coast.

Strategic plan #2 Defend core areas
Goal: Defend rear areas, by gradually fall back against continued Japanese attacks

China Northwest Central, China Szechwan Central and China Southwest.

You can see at the map below.






Attachment (1)

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/11/2011 9:01:17 PM   
Red Prince


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Okay. I see how you've got it broken down. Which means that Offensive (#3) really is what I was calling Victory Offensive, aiming to retake territory that was not under Chinese control at the beginning of the game, rather than retaking the Plan #1 areas.

Therefore, if in the sequence of events, China is elevated from Plan #2 to Plan #1, even though it is "Defend Against Japan", it is is actually at that point an offensive option.

I withdraw my suggestion, since your structure already takes it into account. Good work, in my eyes.

-Aaron

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/12/2011 12:32:29 PM   
peskpesk


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Here is an example of how the Japanese could attack the Chinese using the same geographical breakdown into areas (AO) and land regions (LR). Red background = Japanese controlled. Yellow =Chinese controlled. Yellow/red= mixed control. Solid arrow = preferred attack rout, dotted = alternate attack route. My suggested strategic plan has to handle the Japanese threats.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 8/12/2011 12:50:43 PM >


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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/12/2011 1:36:39 PM   
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Isn't it a thread for China, I know it's related but if we are talking about a strategy on how Japan should launch an offensive in China, maybe that should go in the AI for MWiF - Japan thread?

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/12/2011 1:56:49 PM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

Isn't it a thread for China, I know it's related but if we are talking about a strategy on how Japan should launch an offensive in China, maybe that should go in the AI for MWiF - Japan thread?

I think Peter was responding to my curiosity about what constitutes a 'threat' in a particular area of China, as it applies to the difference between the Defend strategic plan and the Offensive strategic plan.

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/12/2011 6:48:20 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Here are a couple of screenshots that Peter prepared when developing the Area of Operation and Land Region break down for China. They should explain his references.




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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/12/2011 6:49:03 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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2nd in a series of 2.




Attachment (1)

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/12/2011 6:54:18 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

Isn't it a thread for China, I know it's related but if we are talking about a strategy on how Japan should launch an offensive in China, maybe that should go in the AI for MWiF - Japan thread?

To develop a defense for China, it is esential to know what attacks/offensives to expect from Japan. These are from the Chinese presepctive, which doesn't have to worry about Japanese Production, Actions, ferrying troops from Japan to China, etc.

Instead, Peter is just worrying about where the Japanese "offensive thrusts" are likely to occur and how to counter them.

For the Japanese AIO, there will be a lot of overlap, but Japan has to also worry about a DOW by the USSR (for example).

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/13/2011 1:11:18 PM   
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I wonder. Are the warlord units now able to walk through the whole province they are build in? Now the map has got more hexes, they should be able to move a little more...

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/13/2011 7:35:12 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I wonder. Are the warlord units now able to walk through the whole province they are build in? Now the map has got more hexes, they should be able to move a little more...

The change in scale in China meant that we changed their 'range' to 6 hexes from their given city. On setup, they can be placed anywhere within that range. When they arrive as a reinforcement, they have to setup in their home city.

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/13/2011 10:25:13 PM   
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for setting up WarLord units, I thought it was:

"All Warlord units set up in every game on their home city"



I'm betting MWiF will automatically change the color of the unit based on who controls the city though....

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/14/2011 1:00:53 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

for setting up WarLord units, I thought it was:

"All Warlord units set up in every game on their home city"



I'm betting MWiF will automatically change the color of the unit based on who controls the city though....

Yeah. But I decided that was silly. At the start of the game Warlords can set up like any other unit - but within their imposed limitiations. In WIF FE it doesn't matter all that much since the range of the Warlords is much less (2 hexes?).

Yes, the colors are dynamic with who controls the unit.

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/19/2011 6:59:50 PM   
composer99


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Since I've been thinking a bit about other major powers' strategic bombing options, I figured I should bring up China's.

The Chinese will usually rely on lend-lease LND4 for strategic bombing (the two paltry 5-range LND3 with 1 strat factor apiece in their force pools being on the inadequate side). With the WiF base and Planes in Flames units they can get two 9-range LND4 from the US with 6 strat factors and extended range option, and one 11-range LND4 from the USSR with 5 strat factors and ATR capability. Given the small size of the Chinese air force (they only get two other lend-lease bombers, period, if I am not mistaken), it is not unreasonable to suggest that a Chinese side which is not too crippled early on will have all three of these LND4 on the map.

The most likely targets for Chinese strategic bombing are the red factories in Canton & Shanghai. The best forward bases to strike these, if playing with the extra cities, are Chihkiang and Ichang; if these are occupied by the Japanese then Chungking or Kweiyang will have to do.

If the Chinese can muster all three LND4 into a raid that can burn down a factory, I personally see no reason not to try. Unless they do exceptionally well, the Chinese will probably not recapture either city until quite late in a game (if ever!).

Less likely targets (because the Nationalists need to make significant late-war gains to be in range to hit them) are the factories in Manchuria or even Japan.

A secondary purpose of the Chinese strategic air campaign is to tie down Japanese FTR to defending these targets when the Japanese would rather have them near the front or fighting the US/CW/USSR, or to force Japan to decide between committing FTR against some combination of port strikes, naval air, tactical strikes, or strategic raids (or even better, fail to commit the FTR against any of these for fear of losing use of the FTR).

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RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/19/2011 9:00:12 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Since I've been thinking a bit about other major powers' strategic bombing options, I figured I should bring up China's.

The Chinese will usually rely on lend-lease LND4 for strategic bombing (the two paltry 5-range LND3 with 1 strat factor apiece in their force pools being on the inadequate side). With the WiF base and Planes in Flames units they can get two 9-range LND4 from the US with 6 strat factors and extended range option, and one 11-range LND4 from the USSR with 5 strat factors and ATR capability. Given the small size of the Chinese air force (they only get two other lend-lease bombers, period, if I am not mistaken), it is not unreasonable to suggest that a Chinese side which is not too crippled early on will have all three of these LND4 on the map.

The most likely targets for Chinese strategic bombing are the red factories in Canton & Shanghai. The best forward bases to strike these, if playing with the extra cities, are Chihkiang and Ichang; if these are occupied by the Japanese then Chungking or Kweiyang will have to do.

If the Chinese can muster all three LND4 into a raid that can burn down a factory, I personally see no reason not to try. Unless they do exceptionally well, the Chinese will probably not recapture either city until quite late in a game (if ever!).

Less likely targets (because the Nationalists need to make significant late-war gains to be in range to hit them) are the factories in Manchuria or even Japan.

A secondary purpose of the Chinese strategic air campaign is to tie down Japanese FTR to defending these targets when the Japanese would rather have them near the front or fighting the US/CW/USSR, or to force Japan to decide between committing FTR against some combination of port strikes, naval air, tactical strikes, or strategic raids (or even better, fail to commit the FTR against any of these for fear of losing use of the FTR).

Nice. Thanks.

Do you think you could come up with general criteria for when to perform (or threaten to perform) strategic bombing? It would be nice to make one rule/script that could be used by all major powers. Historically, the Britsh bombed at night and the US during the day. Perhaps that should also be part of the decision making process - along with when to split a strong strategic bombing group so they go after more than 1 target.

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Post #: 147
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/19/2011 9:03:22 PM   
Orm


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With Stillwell built the Chinese can augment their strat bomb campaign with a couple of US bombers.

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Post #: 148
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/20/2011 11:34:49 PM   
Extraneous

 

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do you use/not use 13.1 Partisans (option 46)

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Post #: 149
RE: AI for MWiF - China - 8/21/2011 11:22:47 PM   
brian brian

 

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As the Russians, I would never give up one of my precious TB-3's to the Chinese....

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Post #: 150
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