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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Napoleonics] >> Empire in Arms the Napoleonic Wars of 1805 - 1815 >> Need some help... Page: [1]
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Need some help... - 4/18/2007 4:21:19 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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From: Dallas
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Hey guys:

Any Turkish fans out there?

I am trying to find some biographical infomation on the Turkish leaders (Kushanz Ali, Pechlivan Khan, etc.) Does anybody have any information on these guys or an idea of where I could get them?

Thank you

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games


Post #: 1
RE: Need some help... - 4/19/2007 2:50:45 PM   
iamspamus

 

Posts: 430
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From: Cambridge, UK
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I am a big turkish fan and COULD NOT find info on those guys. I can try to look tonight or tomorrow, but I just "went with the flow" on those guys.

Jason

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Hey guys:

Any Turkish fans out there?

I am trying to find some biographical infomation on the Turkish leaders (Kushanz Ali, Pechlivan Khan, etc.) Does anybody have any information on these guys or an idea of where I could get them?

Thank you


(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 2
RE: Need some help... - 4/19/2007 6:24:22 PM   
delatbabel


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I don't believe that the man "Pechlivan Khan" actually existed, or at least I don't believe that that was his real name. "Pehlivan" is a Turkish word meaning "big man", and "Khan" means a ruler of a tribe of some kind, but the information from the reports of his defeat of Kamensky in 1810 (when the name appears several times in Pushkin's letters, citation needed but I'll find one shortly) seems to indicate that he was a soldier raised from the ranks.

As the raising of soldiers from the ranks in Turkish armies of the time was even more irregular than in other armies, "Pe(c)hlivan Khan" was probably an adopted or made-up name chosen by the man (of now unknown name and parentage) during the time of his rise from the ranks. Either that or the name was applied to him by the Russian writers of the period, partially as a term of endearment and partially as a joke name.

Almost certainly, as a soldier raised from the ranks and subsequently in command of a Turkish army, he would probably have gone to some efforts to conceal details of his birth, parentage, background, etc.

In any case good luck finding bibliographical notes on him. I suggest checking one of the military history libraries, or the Russian cultural libraries (e.g. your nearest Russian Cultural Institute, there is one here in Sydney). The Russians seemed to have written a bit more about the Turkish wars during that time than the Ottomans did, or at least more of it has been translated into English than has been done with the Turkish writings.

You're probably aware that "Grand Vizier" isn't a real name either, it's a job title. I suspect that "Pehlivan Khan" was a similar title, it didn't necessarily apply to just one person although at the time it may have.

_____________________________

--
Del

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RE: Need some help... - 4/19/2007 10:54:17 PM   
Mackan

 

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Maybe you can find some info here: http://www.osmanischesreich.com/English/english.html
Don't forget to look in the links collection!

(in reply to delatbabel)
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RE: Need some help... - 4/20/2007 2:39:40 AM   
iamspamus

 

Posts: 430
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From: Cambridge, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Hey guys:

Any Turkish fans out there?

I am trying to find some biographical infomation on the Turkish leaders (Kushanz Ali, Pechlivan Khan, etc.) Does anybody have any information on these guys or an idea of where I could get them?

Thank you


Hey Marshall Ellis,

Well, I looked through my library and didn't find much on the the leaders. Lots on Turks, but they just say stuff like Nap beat 20,000, blah, blah, blah. However, online this is what I did find. Not GREAT sources, but hey what do we expect?



1799 Ottomans vs. Napoleon at Mt Tabor

Pasha of Damascus - Ahmed Basha Al-Jazzar or Djezzar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mount_Tabor



Ahmet Pasha in 1811 v. Kutusov

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Turkish_War,_1806-1812



In this bottom section of a wargame listing I found the first guy Bayrakdar (Alemdar Mustafa Pasha) in The Janissaries by Godfrey Goodwin, pp. 200-209. I think that he died in 1809, but appeared to be "decent".

Ahmed (Laz Ahmed Agha) may be the same as Ahmet Pasha above, but from Wiki, at least, I think he died in 1811. If you count "going to peace and giving up Bessarabia" to the Russians just before Napoleon invades Russia, as wily and getting an armistace, then ok...



Turkey

The Ottoman Empire has the weakest generalship of the major powers. Though there are six Turkish leaders, only three of them are available at any one time. Bayrakdar, Ebubekir and Seyit Ali start the game in play. Pechlivan, Kuschanz Ali and Ahmed enter play only if the Janissary Revolt card is played, in which case any of the other three still in play are removed. This makes the New Leader card useless to the Turkish player, but on the plus side there is the Banner of the Prophet. This can be given to one leader, who then raises his rating by 1 and never vacillates (through card play, a leader can be forced to retreat). Historically this was carried by Alemdar Mustafa "Bayrakdar" Pasha, but players usually give it to Pechlivan Khan or Kuschanz Ali (as they'll be around after the Revolt card appears).

During the Napoleonic Period, Turkey was at war with Russia from 1806 until 1811, signing an armistice in early 1812 before the campaign season opened. The Turks also repelled a British naval attack in 1807.

Bayrakdar

Alemdar Mustafa Pasha of Silistria, known as "Bayrakdar" (the Banner Bearer). When the Russians invaded in 1806 he quickly mobilized his provincial army to oppose them. With the Sultan's army and court in disarray, he formed an alliance of Balkan governors and incited popular resistance against the Russians. He defeated Miloradovitch's Russian army at Rustchuk in 1807, and was called to the capital to serve Sultan Selim III but arrived to find him overthrown. When the new Sultan Mahmut II was in turn assailed by rebel Janissaries in 1808, Bayrakdar was trapped without his loyalists. Rather than submit to their tortures Bayrakdar ignited the capital's main powder store, vaporizing himself, 300 of his bodyguard and 300 rebels.

Ebubekir

Ebubekir Pasha commanded the Ottoman forces that put down the Serbian revolt of 1804. He suffered the indignity of being kidnapped by Janissaries and held for ransom, but regained the Sultan's favor. In 1807 he went to the eastern front to command all Ottoman forces in the Caucasus, but failed to hold the important border fortresses there and was relieved after the Janissary revolt toppled Selim III.

Seyit Ali

Seyit Ali commanded the Ottoman fleet in the 1807 campaign, successfully plaguing Russian supply lines and avoiding battle with the more powerful fleet led by Senyavin. He finally accepted battle with the Russians at Lemnos in July, 1807, and after a hard-fought engagement both sides claimed victory: the Russians sank more ships, but the Ottomans drove them away from the Straits and allowed grain convoys to reach the capital. Bayrakdar fired him later that month for failing to protect Selim III from his murderers. However, Seyit's actual crime appears to have been accusing Bayrakdar of "weeping like a woman rather than seeking vengeance like a man" upon discovering Selim's corpse. Bayrakdar sent him into exile.

Ahmed

Laz Ahmed Agha, named Grand Vizier in 1811, led the Ottoman armies during the 1811 campaign on the Danube. Inexperienced but energetic, he forced Kutuzov back across the big river and re-captured Silistria and Nikopol. He defeated Kutuzov again at Rustchuk, but allowed his army to become trapped on the north bank. The wily Ahmed managed to extract an armistice from the Russians, however, and rescued his army from disaster.

Pechlivan

Pechlivan Khan rose to army command out of the officer ranks rather than those of the provincial governors (unusual in this period, when career soldiers were distrusted). He lost to Bagration at Tartaritza in late 1809, but in the summer of 1810 inflicted three stunning defeats on Kamenski's Russians. He also led the inspired defense of Bazardzik, but plunged into the hand-to-hand fighting himself and was killed.

Kuschanz Ali

Pechlivan's command went to Kuschanz Ali, another old soldier. He defeated Kamenski at Shumla in 1810, but then lost the battle of Batin in August of that year. In the next year's campaign he served under the command of the Grand Vizier.


http://www.avalanchepress.com/seleaders.php


So, anyway, I think that this could cover the leaders of EIA.
Jason

< Message edited by iamspamus -- 4/20/2007 2:40:59 AM >

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 5
RE: Need some help... - 4/23/2007 9:43:15 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5626
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline
Jason:

Great work! Appreciate the efforts!
That's more than I could find.

Thank you

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to iamspamus)
Post #: 6
RE: Need some help... - 5/1/2007 9:47:10 PM   
lp24

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 7/31/2003
From: Denmark
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Seems like you got a lot of info already. If you need more, then these books might be interesting to you. Should be available on your national army or navy academies. At least they are here in Denmark.

Between old and new: The Ottoman Empire under Sultan Selim III 1789-1807 
Shaw Stanford J. 
1971

Bonaparte in Ägypten aus der Chronik des Ábdarrahman al-Gabarti, (1754-1829) 
Al-Gabarti 'Abdarrahman 
1983


David Nicolle: Armies of the Ottoman Empire, 1775-1820
1998.  48 pages, illustrated, short, bibliografi
Osprey
Series: Men-at-Arms ; 314
ISBN: 1855326973


Anderson, R.C.
Naval wars in the Levant 1559-1853
1952. 619 pages + 1 map
University Press


Virginia Aksan: The Ottoman wars, 1700-1870
2004.
Pearson Professional Education
Series: Modern Wars in Perspective S.
ISBN: 0-582-30807-0

Landau, Jacob M.: Exploring Ottoman and Turkish history. (London 2004) 434 p.

I hope it helps. Let me know if you need anything else :)







_____________________________

LP24

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 7
RE: Need some help... - 5/5/2007 11:01:01 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5626
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline
Appreciate the sources!

Thank you

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to lp24)
Post #: 8
RE: Need some help... - 5/7/2007 1:32:08 AM   
no_dice

 

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Marshall, can you tell us if EIA will have the "stock" stock leaders or if there will be any additions/deletions? IE Miloradovich

:)

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 9
RE: Need some help... - 5/7/2007 2:41:14 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5626
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline
No_dice:

All stock for now. I could see this changing with additional scenarios.

Thank you

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to no_dice)
Post #: 10
RE: Need some help... - 5/7/2007 3:31:04 PM   
iamspamus

 

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From: Cambridge, UK
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Marshall, is this based on having the normal EIH leaders or EIA?

Jason
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

No_dice:

All stock for now. I could see this changing with additional scenarios.

Thank you


(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 11
RE: Need some help... - 5/7/2007 9:42:02 PM   
Murat


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From: South Carolina
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good question!

(in reply to iamspamus)
Post #: 12
RE: Need some help... - 5/8/2007 8:24:45 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5626
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline
Standard EiA leaders today.

Thank you

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to Murat)
Post #: 13
RE: Need some help... - 5/9/2007 2:46:35 PM   
iamspamus

 

Posts: 430
Joined: 11/16/2006
From: Cambridge, UK
Status: offline
Danke!
Jason

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Standard EiA leaders today.

Thank you


(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 14
RE: Need some help... - 6/11/2007 10:07:11 PM   
1LTRambo


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Good to know. Thank you.

(in reply to iamspamus)
Post #: 15
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