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Critics on TOAW

 
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Critics on TOAW - 3/15/2007 5:45:07 PM   
Zweihorn

 

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Critics on TOAW. I discovered this very negative critics on TOAW in another forum:
http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=002167I´m quite a newbie, but I would like to hear how the experts think on this critics. For me TOAW loooks very flexible and realistic on the operation level.


< Message edited by Zweihorn -- 3/15/2007 6:10:43 PM >
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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/15/2007 6:47:28 PM   
Widell


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Not sure if you will get a very fair and balanced view here. Most of us paid for the game, and a majority has paid more than once, and would pay again. What does this mean? Between the pro's and con's, this is one of the very few games I have had installed since the day I first bought it a looooong time ago, and this can only mean it's good, very good!

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/15/2007 7:11:01 PM   
Veers


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Wow. Have these guys even played the game for more than five minutes? It looks like they haven't.

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/15/2007 7:48:16 PM   
freeboy

 

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funny comming from a bf forum

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/15/2007 8:15:21 PM   
Monkeys Brain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

funny comming from a bf forum


The writer is smart and kind of want to look like some intellectual but then shoot himself in the foot by saying that TOAW is completely broken and unplayable. Of course that TOAW is not perfect but it does well some things.

BTW interesting postings there, poster than continues to amaze us with his so big knowledge of computer and board wargames and then spell out what other have done better in other games. Yawn. Maybe he wants to lump all that together.
In fact maybe TOAW is not so realistic in some things but it is very playable and it is computer game and not West Point wargame simulation of Medieval II : Total War lol

Eh, I am so amazed by Medieval II that I mention it all the time haha.


Mario

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/15/2007 8:34:23 PM   
Widell


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Can't resist posting this link

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/15/2007 8:40:11 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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After reading these particular gems of inanity, it took all the willpower I could muster, to continue reading the rest of the author's (JasonC) screed...

quote:

Attacks are best conducted as mega overstack affairs at about 10 to 1 odds. No, the concentration penalties do not remotely forbid this.

Supply is so uncontrollable, the only way to actually manage it is to deploy some units so far from the action they won't have occasion to draw it. ...

None of the combined arms relationships of the real weapons are seriously present. Instead, units are bags of diversified combat power, supply and quality dependent to be sure, but not equipment dependent in any serious way.


They clearly show a complete misunderstanding of how things work in TOAW. At least, in the state it has been in, for the last seven years.

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/15/2007 9:30:49 PM   
Telumar


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quote:

Supply is so uncontrollable, the only way to actually manage it is to deploy some units so far from the action they won't have occasion to draw it. ...


Lol..i found this one extraordinarily amusing.


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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/15/2007 9:31:33 PM   
Veers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Widell

Can't resist posting this link



Awesome.

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/15/2007 10:02:35 PM   
ralphtrick

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Widell

Can't resist posting this link



Awesome.

That's hilarious!


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Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/15/2007 10:05:00 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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Brilliant!

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/15/2007 10:35:06 PM   
rich12545

 

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Being a CM player also I saw this yesterday.  It is TOAW from a CM point of view.  Might as well talk about a pickup truck from a sport's car point of view.  Both vehicles but very different.  Seems like those guys don't have an clue but are trying to impress each other with how little they know.

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/15/2007 11:09:41 PM   
Monkeys Brain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Widell

Can't resist posting this link



Great as other said!
Thanks.

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/15/2007 11:12:30 PM   
Monkeys Brain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

Being a CM player also I saw this yesterday. It is TOAW from a CM point of view. Might as well talk about a pickup truck from a sport's car point of view. Both vehicles but very different. Seems like those guys don't have an clue but are trying to impress each other with how little they know.


I like Battlefront forum it is really funny sometimes. BTW, he is telling something that TACOPS is really great game and TOAW isn't (reading between the lines). I don't know - never tried the TACOPS's but didn't heard that it is so good. So I am suspicious in this guy reasoning.
Combat Mission quite contrary is great series of games.

And their upcoming Theatre of War will be game everyone will be talking about soon.


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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/15/2007 11:24:26 PM   
SMK-at-work

 

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no it is not TOAW from a BF pov - I also play BF and have no problems with ToaW.

It is the poster JasonC who is at fault - he is a prima donna - if everything isn't perfect then it is completely broken - he is a fan of hyperbole and this is a typical case of him playing with himself - not worth worrying about. 



< Message edited by SMK-at-work -- 3/15/2007 11:30:52 PM >

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/16/2007 12:14:09 AM   
BAL


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work
...It is the poster JasonC who is at fault - he is a prima donna - if everything isn't perfect then it is completely broken - he is a fan of hyperbole and this is a typical case of him playing with himself - not worth worrying about. 


That dud redwolf is another legend in his own mind over there. If you don't like a game, at least be able to critique it intelligently - a trait that is obviously lacking in that thread.

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/16/2007 12:33:25 AM   
Bibbo

 

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Consider myself a serious player of all types of wargames for 20+ years and since I first started playing TOAWIII about a year ago have not been able to be away from it more than a couple days before starting withdrawal symptoms. The incredible number of scenerios from very small size to massive(FITE,etc), prevent boredom from becoming over familiar with the tricks and gamey aspects that creep into some of the other really good games with time. Have not had the time to play several other games I've bought such as GG A World Divided,Forge of Freedom and WITP. So many games and so little time. I would like to see if possible better similation of sea and air combat but as a whole the game in my opinion has great value and is well worth buying. Also the forum is very active and its easy to find opponents for PBEM. A truly great game.

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/16/2007 12:49:26 AM   
ralphtrick

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

Being a CM player also I saw this yesterday.  It is TOAW from a CM point of view.  Might as well talk about a pickup truck from a sport's car point of view.  Both vehicles but very different.  Seems like those guys don't have an clue but are trying to impress each other with how little they know.

Did you see the thread that redwolf mentioned? I'm wondering if it had any more substance. That thread was pretty entertaining.

_____________________________

Ralph Trickey
TOAW III Programmer
Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
---
My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of any other person or entity. Nothing that I say should be construed in any way as a promise of anything.

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/16/2007 3:42:21 AM   
rich12545

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick


quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

Being a CM player also I saw this yesterday.  It is TOAW from a CM point of view.  Might as well talk about a pickup truck from a sport's car point of view.  Both vehicles but very different.  Seems like those guys don't have an clue but are trying to impress each other with how little they know.

Did you see the thread that redwolf mentioned? I'm wondering if it had any more substance. That thread was pretty entertaining.


Nope. Didn't see it. I play only CMAK and Tacops from Battlefront and since they are done I don't spend so much time there anymore. Just happened to see the one thread yesterday.

And for Monkey's Brain, Tacops is a very good game. WeGo like CM. Units are a bit larger. Graphics aren't as good. All modern units. No random generator but more than enough scenarios. It's so good the military from at least three countries use it for training. The dev is a retired Marine major. And there's a demo. Certainly worth a look.

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/16/2007 4:06:54 AM   
Monkeys Brain


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quote:

And for Monkey's Brain, Tacops is a very good game. WeGo like CM. Units are a bit larger. Graphics aren't as good. All modern units. No random generator but more than enough scenarios. It's so good the military from at least three countries use it for training. The dev is a retired Marine major. And there's a demo. Certainly worth a look.


Thanks.

Major H is old buddy from wargaming Usenet group and Gamesquads forum.

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Post #: 20
RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/16/2007 4:08:28 AM   
Vincenzo Beretta


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain
BTW interesting postings there, poster than continues to amaze us with his so big knowledge of computer and board wargames and then spell out what other have done better in other games.


Had he really wanted to show off some amazing knowledge of board wargames he should have quoted Frank Chadwick's WWIII series in a post about TOAW.

Challenge moment: who will be the first able to point out why? No, Trey Marshall's conversions do not count

Edit: OK, I went there to molest the place - let's see what will boil up


< Message edited by Vincenzo Beretta -- 3/16/2007 4:39:40 AM >


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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/16/2007 5:40:57 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

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A few other ToaW threads over there:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=021504#000000
http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=019826;p=1 - this is the one that persuaded me to buy it.
http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=020415#000007

Hey how do you get those abreviated link titles on this system??

< Message edited by SMK-at-work -- 3/16/2007 5:42:37 AM >

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/16/2007 6:41:33 AM   
ralphtrick

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta

quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain
BTW interesting postings there, poster than continues to amaze us with his so big knowledge of computer and board wargames and then spell out what other have done better in other games.


Had he really wanted to show off some amazing knowledge of board wargames he should have quoted Frank Chadwick's WWIII series in a post about TOAW.

Challenge moment: who will be the first able to point out why? No, Trey Marshall's conversions do not count

Edit: OK, I went there to molest the place - let's see what will boil up


As a kid, I'll bet that you used to poke at bee hives with a stick, didn't you?

Ralph


_____________________________

Ralph Trickey
TOAW III Programmer
Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
---
My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of any other person or entity. Nothing that I say should be construed in any way as a promise of anything.

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/16/2007 7:20:46 AM   
JAMiAM

 

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Hey guys, thanks for the show of support over there. I know several of you are active members of both sites, but let's make sure that we don't start some silly inter-forum flamewar. Now, as soon as my registration over there is approved, I'm going to test my resolve at following my own advice...

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/16/2007 3:34:37 PM   
Vincenzo Beretta


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
As a kid, I'll bet that you used to poke at bee hives with a stick, didn't you?

Ralph



As you may know, I was recenty accused (elsewhere) of "not being a molester enough" too

Anyway, while I have the utmost respect for those able to put "Asymmetrical synergies in the abstractive synthesis of combat results" in the same sentence ( ), somehow I fail to see how you could talk this way about a game while keeping a straight face.

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/16/2007 5:26:21 PM   
Graymane


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zweihorn

Critics on TOAW. I discovered this very negative critics on TOAW in another forum:
http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=002167I´m quite a newbie, but I would like to hear how the experts think on this critics. For me TOAW loooks very flexible and realistic on the operation level.



Sounds like a typical case of forum royalty pontification with a nice round of syncophant drooling afterward. My best advice is to try the game yourself and go ahead and make your own decisions.

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/16/2007 10:39:28 PM   
Hertston


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There isn't even much "syncophant drooling", certainly for that particular forum. I thought it was quite an interesting discussion, actually. The guy concerned knows his stuff; but rather too well in a sense as he seems incapable of distinguishing between lack-of-quality and personal prejudice, in this case towards both TOAW and the Airborne Assault games.

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/16/2007 11:23:22 PM   
Widell


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston
...and the Airborne Assault games.


The comments on the Panther stuff was hilarious, truly, and really a sign of not being able to admit not having spent the time to really understand how things work before making up ones mind. I play almost all of the games, and more, mentioned in thread "over there", all with great pleasure. What this character fails to recognize is that every game has its time, and require the right mood. There are fundamental differences between CM, TOAW and the RDOA, HTTR, COTA trilogy, and comparing is hard. But, I'm preaching to the quire here, so I will just conclude: TOAW is [bthe longest surviving game on my computer(s). It is not because it is seriously flawed....

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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/17/2007 1:44:54 AM   
Vincenzo Beretta


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

There isn't even much "syncophant drooling", certainly for that particular forum. I thought it was quite an interesting discussion, actually. The guy concerned knows his stuff


Not at all, IMHO, and this is not because I'm "partisan". He fails to grasp the basic (and factual) point that TOAW is a *tool* to write wargames at operational level - and not a wargame "per se". Since the nature of TOAW is open to all who make the simplest inquires about the game, this is enough to say that he doesn't know stuff beside the one he has memorized.

Notice how I used the word "wargames" and not "scenarios": TOAW is flexible enough that, even if keeping a general core of rules, it allows to the designers to portray a specific situation the way they feel is better - almost like if they were writing the specific rules for an unique title. You can have a "Stalingrad" where you can try to pull out the Sixth Army in a big what if, another one where the Sixth Army is fixed and the race is to save it from the outside, yet another one at a different scale and covering all the Southern Front in 1942, and so on.

So, truth is that when you launch a "scenario" in TOAW, you are actually opening a new wargame box, complete with unique rules (the attached docs) - which you have to study so to understand the situation, the designer's intent, the "chrome bits" (ex. high attrition level at Stalingrad to simulate the unusual disease levels in the kessel) and other factors specific to that scenario. Only then you can start thinking about how to play it. The dude at Battlefront is right when he writes:

"Game design is a process in which an intelligent person with a clear thesis about the key aspects of some strategy game subject, models those key aspects, and puts control over them in the hands of the players. Leaving the outcome to their respective wits and getting his own tush off their table - but having selected the key variables and parameterized their control."

...And, ironically, it is here where his "criticism" of TOAW crashes and burns, since this is exactly what TOAW as a tool allows you to do - the end product being the specific scenario you either give out to play, or you play courtesy of some one else's efforts. Instead, he does seem to believe that TOAW is a wargame based on wild assuptions, vagueness and arbitrary rules - which is like to say that MS Word, as a novel, lacks focus and is too vague.

I think that I'll stick with *my* opinion of TOAW for a little while more



< Message edited by Vincenzo Beretta -- 3/17/2007 1:50:46 AM >


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RE: Critics on TOAW - 3/17/2007 2:13:37 AM   
freeboy

 

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Tthree great design series are made more in that they allow USERS to make scens.. the CM, dated graphics but a fines series nontheless, Taow3, and The decisive battle series. When I pay 80.00 willingly for Witp, or some other game.. granted you can do scens in that but not in this league,and I compare the "fun factor"... I think before a system failure there where like 2500 sdcenarios just for CMBB. Heck even running a fixing mod in MWT2..
Why is this relevent to this thread?
Games should be judged and opinions givin in a atmosphere that allows diverging opinions without flaming. Yet those same opinions should be able to be ?ed... the above post mentioned that Taow3 is a builders game.. youe simply need to look at the depth of what can be built tot see how it shines...
Sometimes fools need to be ignored

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