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Is invading Australia as easy at it seems?

 
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Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/12/2007 10:38:50 PM   
Icedawg


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I ask because I'm about to start up another game against the AI (each time there is a patch, I usually start games against the AI over from scratch - for some reason, I just can't continue my existing games with the knowledge that something in them was screwed up.)

To this point, I've never invaded Australia simply because of the ahistorical nature of such a move. However, I'm awfully tempted to take those more or less undefended bases in NW Australia (Broome, Darwin, Wyndham etc). I'm planning on using the 56th Brigade and the SNLF's stationed at Palau (once they take care of the southern Philippines, Kendari and Amboina). In addition, the 2nd Division will be steaming south from Kagoshima with an assortment of combat engineers, tanks and artillery for support. It seems as though this force should EASILY take all of those bases in NW Australia (I'm predicting by mid January or early February).

For anyone who has tried this, is it really as easy as it looks? And if so, why didn't the Japanese try doing so in real life?
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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/12/2007 11:00:43 PM   
niceguy2005


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I don't play Japan in the game so I can't answer the first question.

As to the second, there was a plan floated for the invasion and conquest of Australia, but honestly, to what end? What could Japan hope to gain by such a manuever. To beat an army is one thing, but to occupy a foreign country, in particular one not used to occupation, is another. How much of its army would be consumed with suppression of the population? The U.S. would still be marching on the home islands and a significant amount of force would be deployed in Australia. Japan was after the natural resources of the SRA, Australia would have been a side show.

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/12/2007 11:26:39 PM   
Icedawg


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I suspect you are right about this. In real life, the value of invading Australia would have been minimal.

In game terms however, there is no "occupation" to deal with in Australia (like in Manchukuo) and there are some pretty attractive resource centers there (a couple of 300 or 600 resource points I believe). So, as far as the game is concerned, it seems like a worthwhile venture.

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/12/2007 11:37:53 PM   
Mike Solli


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In one of my PBEMs I did invade Darwin.  The goal was to trash his B-25s and B-17 sitting there.  I had bombarded the place a couple of time and did destroy a good number of them, while damaging a bunch more.  I invaded and took the place destroying the damaged planes.  I destroyed over 200 planes.  Looking at my notes, it happened in early May 42.  I stayed about a month and successfully withdrew my forces.  I was afraid it would have turned into a self-sustaining POW camp.  You need to ship all supply there while the Allies can use the roads to supply any relief force.  Once Allied air power builds up, you're dead meat.

Basically, I think Northern Australia is easy to take but practically impossible to hold.  I'd much rather use those land forces to defend the SRA.

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/12/2007 11:57:12 PM   
Icedawg


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But if you can take all four of the bases in NW Australia, the next closest Allied bases are Perth and Alice Springs, both of which (I think) are beyond range of all Allied bombers but the B29. If you can take all of these bases, you should be able to absolutely pummel the Allied troops marching overland to retake them. In addition, if the Allied player devotes a large number of LCU's to retaking NW Australia, he'll have to leave the Eastern coast relatively lightly defended. This could create a nice opportunity to take some really valuable bases (assuming you have already taken PM and Noumea).

The supply issue might not be as serious a problem as you may think. You have to supply Lautem and Kupang (I'm assuming barring an invasion of Australia, these would be heavily garrisoned) anyway. By invading and taking NW Australia, you wouldn't have to garrison these bases in Timor as heavily and the supplies and troops that would have been devoted to them could go to your newly taken Austalian colony.

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/12/2007 11:57:36 PM   
Raverdave


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In my PBEM with someone whom I shall not mention, he has indeed invaded Australia........he has taken South Australia and all of New South Wales.  Melbourne is under seige but I am hopeful that it will hold for a number of months.  He has the ability to take Perth and Darwin, but Queensland will be a tough nut for him to crack, and if anything all the invasion has done is to lock down a good number of his troops that could have been used for the defense of the Pacific. 

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/13/2007 3:22:18 AM   
denisonh


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Ask Amiral laurent, as it is end of Jun42 in our PBEM and he owns all of Australia west of Alice Springs and is looking to take more. That has been his main effort as opposed to India, NG or the South Pacific.

We are playing stock, which IMO makes it much easier than it should be. ABs map makes it a bit more realistic and much tougher to hold. It makes for an interesting, if not different, game.

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/13/2007 3:32:34 AM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

In my PBEM with someone whom I shall not mention, he has indeed invaded Australia........he has taken South Australia and all of New South Wales.  Melbourne is under seige but I am hopeful that it will hold for a number of months.  He has the ability to take Perth and Darwin, but Queensland will be a tough nut for him to crack, and if anything all the invasion has done is to lock down a good number of his troops that could have been used for the defense of the Pacific. 

This is the way I see it. Against the AI it might be possible to conquer all of Australia. I doubt it could be done against a human. Australia has a formidable army.

Have you considered taking New Caldonia and New Zealand? Easier to capture and better return for your effort. You could then blockade all of the South Pacific.

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/13/2007 3:43:09 AM   
madflava13


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It can definitely be done - but why would you? Aside from the above poster who took Darwin for a short time period, and for a specific reason, I don't think an IJN player should do so - you just squander lots of troops far from supply in a place that's eventually easy for the Allies to isolate.

Do it if you have a good reason and a good timetable... Otherwise, invader beware!

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/13/2007 1:52:45 PM   
Honda


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I went for Australia for one good reason - Raverdave is an Aussie and it adds to the fun. Nothing like a good oldfashion homeland war
We'll see how it plays out, but I fancy my chances more then Raver's at the moment. This empty Pacific talk...why doesn't he take it then? Oh yes, he tryed and failed. Australia will be mine yet, and it will serve a major purpose. A few actualy:
1. Australian forces out of the war (very nice when Allied steamroller gets on his way)
2. Australia is a good producer of supply - so far my only inbound convoy has been an oil shipment for heavy industry

It was a huge risk of course, but it attained surprise and worked. In fact Raver, everything seems to have worked, right?[;)

So, if your opponent can see an Australia invasion coming, you're more or less doomed. Plan for it from the outset, I don't think Australia is an option you can switch to at some point in the game 'cause you feel like it. So far, I did everything right and still the outcome hangs on a thread.


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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/13/2007 2:28:15 PM   
String


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I think these examples, especially when well publicized, will be very useful in keeping allied players in check and preventing them from stripping areas from units.

I think noone pulls out large units from India before late '42 after operation hangover in PZB's AAR :D

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/13/2007 3:02:49 PM   
buzzz123

 

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quote]there was a plan floated for the invasion and conquest of Australia, but honestly, to what end? What could Japan hope to gain by such a manuever. To beat an army is one thing, but to occupy a foreign country, in particular one not used to occupation, is another. How much of its army would be consumed with suppression of the population?[/quote]

What population?? The NW coast of Aus is a whole lot of nothing. There was only about 15 million of us back then - and about 14 million lived in the SE corner, with the other mill scattered across the country.

Historically the Aus government were willing to withdraw 3/4 of the way across the country - let the japs die of thirst, starvation, and snake bite in the desert!

In reality an invasion of NW Australia would have achieved nothing, and IRL an advance overland from there is virtually impossible.

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/13/2007 3:08:24 PM   
Vetamur

 

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In RL the Navy brought it up after taking the SRA etc. easier than they expected. As soon as they brought it up, the Army shot the idea down.. they simply didnt have the resources to do it.

In the game..Im a beginner. But in my PBEM (my first) I am seriously tempted.. Ive sunk all but one US carrier  and that one is damaged.. sank a convoy conveying USAAF planese to Australia or Noumua (70 P-40s and I forget how many P-39s), so I basically have a free hand in the Pacific. I have all my carriers (3 of them damaged) except one.. and basically am looking for something to do with the troops besides just deciding its time to defend. Its April 42 and..like I said.. Australia is looking awfully tempting. Get some heavy industy if nothing else..then pull out when he starts to be able to challenge again.

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/14/2007 2:52:42 AM   
JeffK


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Just plan the Invasion for a Friday evening, before a long weekend if possible.

A problem with WITP and an Invasion of Australia is that it doesnt represent any ability to ramp up the defenders, I reckon another 2-3 Divs could have been built, It doesnt allow the RAAF to deploy the large numbers of obsolete Battle, Anson light bombers (just like the Brits would have done ina SeaLion Invasion). Something like the "VietMinh" trigger to allow 2-3 Divs (maybe 6-9 Bdes would be better) at major Cities should Australia be Invaded would be more representative of the defenders abilities.

PS. OZ only had a 5mill +- population at the time.

I'd let the Japs take OZ, then aim my 1943-44 assault through Kwajalein,Truk, Saipan. Plus get the RN to threaten Perth, Geraldton etc

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/14/2007 3:59:56 AM   
John 3rd


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I have invaded NW Aussieland several times and managed to hold it for quite some period.  Usually go for it in mid-42 (If I am not attacking Ceylon/India/New Zealand) and keep as long as possible!

Want those damned 4EB to stay away from my resource sites.

I held NW Australia through early-1943 in a game against Moses before we stopped it.  In my long-running campaign with Wolfpack, now in late-Feb 1944, I STILL possess it and am making a renewed offensive to occupy my opponent's attention and KEEP HIM AWAY from PM and Rabaul.

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/14/2007 4:37:20 AM   
moses

 

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I tried retaking North Austrailia from John but it was much more difficult then it would seem. The problem is that there are no intermediate air bases that you can use for support. So as you approach you get bombed day after day with everything he has. Then he just pulls back into his city with level 9 forts and you'll just have to fight forever while he adds naval bombardment to the daily air attacks. Its just too much and I retreated before I even got that far.

The only way to retake it is too bring carrier air but of course John sunk all my carriers.

In my current game Jwilkerson just invaded Darwin with 2 divisions on Jan 1st!!! and I assume he plans on clearing the coast sooner or later. This should be interesting. I've never heard of anyone invading so quick except in those games where Japan is allowed to invade everything on turn one. But this is a historical first turn. (ie. we let the computer play turn one). So its a lot harder for Japan. AAR's from both sides of view are running.

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/14/2007 1:25:20 PM   
John 3rd


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Greg,
Sounds interesting.  Haven't seen the notes within the AARs and since YOU had a snow day, I bet you got a lot done!  Will go and see...
J

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/14/2007 2:22:52 PM   
kaleun

 

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Halsey invaded north Oz in 42, and attacked and occupied Western Oz in Jan 43. He took Perth and attacked Albany. Only the timely arrival of an Aussie division from India (that had been in transit before the invasion) and another division from SIdney prevented the fall of ALbany. Now in February I have retaken Perth, and am pushing north from Albany.
He is pushing south towards Daly Waters though.

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/14/2007 4:13:39 PM   
Sneer


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invading is easy - taking north Oz too
keeping it secure with rest of empire is much more difficult especially later in 43 and 44
for me there is negative value of such move - it ties too much precious assets

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/14/2007 4:18:16 PM   
Nikademus


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I'm curious of late........

How many Divisions and/or Division equivilents do players on average have playing as Japan. Even playing a conventional, somewhat conservative game, I found myself (as Japan) stretched for finding the troops to secure objectives where you know there will be at least a div+ of enemy troops.

How many Div's do players use to invade Oz?


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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/14/2007 4:23:01 PM   
Mike Solli


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For my little recon in force to Darwin, I used 2 divisions, 2 brigades, 2 tank regiments, some artillery and a HQ.  He had some stuff there but fortunately there were no forts.

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/14/2007 4:34:24 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

In one of my PBEMs I did invade Darwin.  The goal was to trash his B-25s and B-17 sitting there.  I had bombarded the place a couple of time and did destroy a good number of them, while damaging a bunch more.  I invaded and took the place destroying the damaged planes.  I destroyed over 200 planes.  Looking at my notes, it happened in early May 42.  I stayed about a month and successfully withdrew my forces.  I was afraid it would have turned into a self-sustaining POW camp.  You need to ship all supply there while the Allies can use the roads to supply any relief force.  Once Allied air power builds up, you're dead meat.

Basically, I think Northern Australia is easy to take but practically impossible to hold.  I'd much rather use those land forces to defend the SRA.


Why had your opponent concentrated all his aircraft at Darwin? And why didn't he pull any of them back? I play CHS, and when a squadron on the north coast needs a rest, I pull it back to an inland base for R&R. You *can* ship damaged aircraft cross-country--it's not like they're stuck at the base in Darwin.

< Message edited by herwin -- 2/14/2007 4:54:21 PM >


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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/14/2007 4:41:00 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

For my little recon in force to Darwin, I used 2 divisions, 2 brigades, 2 tank regiments, some artillery and a HQ.  He had some stuff there but fortunately there were no forts.


Oh my...

I started fort building in Darwin on 8 December. They go up fast, too.

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/14/2007 4:45:14 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


Why had your opponent concentrated all his aircraft at Darwin? And why didn't he pull any of them back?


Concentration (or uber-concentration) is a pretty standard tactic in the game. I had an opponent do that to me as well with Darwin to 'train up' his bomber groups by hitting Timor every day. The downside of the uber-con of course is if you get caught by a good bombardment (air or sea, or both) you can potentially lose alot of aircraft in one fell swoop. (lots of damaged planes = trapped)


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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/14/2007 4:48:45 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

In one of my PBEMs I did invade Darwin.  The goal was to trash his B-25s and B-17 sitting there.  I had bombarded the place a couple of time and did destroy a good number of them, while damaging a bunch more.  I invaded and took the place destroying the damaged planes.  I destroyed over 200 planes.  Looking at my notes, it happened in early May 42.  I stayed about a month and successfully withdrew my forces.  I was afraid it would have turned into a self-sustaining POW camp.  You need to ship all supply there while the Allies can use the roads to supply any relief force.  Once Allied air power builds up, you're dead meat.

Basically, I think Northern Australia is easy to take but practically impossible to hold.  I'd much rather use those land forces to defend the SRA.


Why had your opponent concentrated all his aircraft at Darwin? And why didn't he pull any of them back? I play CHS, and when a squadron on the north coast needs a rest, I pull it back to an inland base for R&R. You *can* ship damaged aircraft cross-country--it's not like they're stuck at the base in Darwin.


Invading Darwin wasn't my first thought. I sent some CAs there to bombard and disrupt his bombers. When my ships got away without damage, I did it again. They were very successful. At that point I decided to send a division there. They made it and were unable to dislodge the Allied forces. By this point, he had quite a few damaged bombers sitting there. I moved in the rest of the force (basically everything I could scrape up in the area) and finally drove him out. It was the naval bombardment that really caused the invasion to occur. I got lucky. Basically, it prevented the destruction of Amboina by about 6 months or so.

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/14/2007 5:27:33 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


Why had your opponent concentrated all his aircraft at Darwin? And why didn't he pull any of them back?


Concentration (or uber-concentration) is a pretty standard tactic in the game. I had an opponent do that to me as well with Darwin to 'train up' his bomber groups by hitting Timor every day. The downside of the uber-con of course is if you get caught by a good bombardment (air or sea, or both) you can potentially lose alot of aircraft in one fell swoop. (lots of damaged planes = trapped)




Dispersal was a pretty standard tactic in reality. Plus, you're not using base forces to maintain squadrons that are doing little for you.

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/14/2007 5:32:37 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

In one of my PBEMs I did invade Darwin.  The goal was to trash his B-25s and B-17 sitting there.  I had bombarded the place a couple of time and did destroy a good number of them, while damaging a bunch more.  I invaded and took the place destroying the damaged planes.  I destroyed over 200 planes.  Looking at my notes, it happened in early May 42.  I stayed about a month and successfully withdrew my forces.  I was afraid it would have turned into a self-sustaining POW camp.  You need to ship all supply there while the Allies can use the roads to supply any relief force.  Once Allied air power builds up, you're dead meat.

Basically, I think Northern Australia is easy to take but practically impossible to hold.  I'd much rather use those land forces to defend the SRA.


Why had your opponent concentrated all his aircraft at Darwin? And why didn't he pull any of them back? I play CHS, and when a squadron on the north coast needs a rest, I pull it back to an inland base for R&R. You *can* ship damaged aircraft cross-country--it's not like they're stuck at the base in Darwin.


Invading Darwin wasn't my first thought. I sent some CAs there to bombard and disrupt his bombers. When my ships got away without damage, I did it again.

No mines? No coast defense units?
quote:


They were very successful. At that point I decided to send a division there. They made it and were unable to dislodge the Allied forces.

Time to move the air out, especially the damaged aircraft. If I pull out a damaged squadron of 12 or 24, it makes room for an undamaged squadron of the same strength (if I want to keep air in the hex). I prefer to have base forces at a number of bases, rather than having all my eggs in one basket. Of course, I play CHS.
quote:


By this point, he had quite a few damaged bombers sitting there. I moved in the rest of the force (basically everything I could scrape up in the area) and finally drove him out. It was the naval bombardment that really caused the invasion to occur. I got lucky. Basically, it prevented the destruction of Amboina by about 6 months or so.



_____________________________

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/14/2007 5:37:03 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


Dispersal was a pretty standard tactic in reality. Plus, you're not using base forces to maintain squadrons that are doing little for you.


nevertheless, concentration is a pretty standard tactic in WitP.



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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/14/2007 5:40:40 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

Time to move the air out, especially the damaged aircraft. If I pull out a damaged squadron of 12 or 24, it makes room for an undamaged squadron of the same strength (if I want to keep air in the hex). I prefer to have base forces at a number of bases, rather than having all my eggs in one basket. Of course, I play CHS.
quote:



There's one little point I haven't mentioned. We're using Andrew Brown's map and there are no rail roads, just roads IIRC.

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RE: Is invading Australia as easy at it seems? - 2/14/2007 6:28:09 PM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sneer

invading is easy - taking north Oz too
keeping it secure with rest of empire is much more difficult especially later in 43 and 44
for me there is negative value of such move - it ties too much precious assets



I've invaded Oz in more than one game. But my primary reason isn't to "take and hold" ... there isn't really anything worth holding. So why invade? Well actually I consider invading to be a "necessary evil". Most of the PBEMs I've played that have gotten into 43-44 have seen the primary Allied attack based out of Darwin. And Darwin with 100 P-38s and 400 B-17s is a dagger pointed straight at the SRA, allowing this area to be closed down at least a year earlier than it was historically. So, by invading, the purpose is to buy time. The time is used to build up Timor, Kai, etc. to make them tougher to attack. Can you buy an additional six months delay by doing this? I say yes, about that, hence that is what it is worth. If the Allies can crawl back along the North Coast of New Guinea, or come back in Burma .. or put Major airpower into China, or do any one of these things by late '43 .. then the Timor to Kendari route is no longer as attractive. But my hope is the invasion of NW Oz keeps the Allies out of Timor until late '43 ... that is the goal anyway.



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