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Freedom of speech - 12/31/2006 6:13:47 AM   
Bucks


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From: Melbourne, Australia
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G'day All,

I was under the impression that "Freedom of Speech" was guaranteed under the US Constitution? Yes I'm an Aussie and even though we don't have a guarantee of this right, we don't need it we accept that's part of a healthly functioning democracy.

Anyway here's something to ponder. I have over the last couple of weeks attempted to post four replies to the HHQ forum. I have been banned because of the following, which was in response to HHQ placing a copy of Harpoon 3.6 on their website for anybody to download!!!! (PIRACY)

Sunburn wrote:
Today a chap at Matrix's ANW forum wondered aloud if it was possible to go back from 3.7 (ANW) to 3.6.2. I replied by telling him it is technically possible, and that he would need the 3.6.2 and a valid LOK-KEE from AGSI. I also directed him to this thread here for instructions.

I checked after a couple hours and my post was deleted. The chief mod at that forum, Dale Hillier (VCDH at this here forum) sent me a PM:

Quote:

(Title): I've deleted your post.

We don't support piracy here and we certainly don't support anyones agenda. Do that again and you'll be banned.



I am submitting this event without further comment.


MY REPLY:

Before you start pointing accusing fingers ask Mr "Bundy" - (maybe the serial killer not sure) why he's deleted my three previous posts from this forum.

I pointed out that was censorship and he pretty much told me where to go. Now you guys are making a big deal out of what's been done to me here already REPEATEDLY.

Here's something to THINK about in relation to the PIRACY issue. Last time I checked, Don Gilman was the sole owner of the RIGHTS to computer Harpoon. he has to pay Messrs Bond and Carlson a license fee to continue producing this game we all say we love...

I couldn't blame Don if he took his "bat and ball" and went home for good. I'm working on the game and have actually given up some of my normal workload and the $$$ that earns to help produce what I know is a better game. Don has a good job at a University and this must be nothing more than a distraction from his normal routine when people do this to him.

Here's the ultimate "regression" theory. Why don't we all go back to using H2? That was a superb product with few flaws and worked like a charm... If people want to act like this here's the deal. Pass a hat around HHQ, do a collection and see if you can scrounge up enough cash to buy the license from Don. Then see if you want to continue giving away YOUR product.

Cheers

Darren Buckley

*********************************
Editor HUD-II/HUD3
Contributing Editor/Development Team
Harpoon 3.8
*********************************


Then I received this from the moderator of the HHQ forum:

From: Mike Mykytyn

To: shadrach@hotmail.com


Subject: Adios

Thought you'd figure out the warning but you're banned. Its just easier that way I guess ;) Plenty of other place for you to hang out Darren. Have fun there would ya! Mike




I don't really care actually because I've just started pulling the DB2K apart and it's screwed... That is the database has serious issues that will effect gameplay and may even cause users to assume the actual game is buggy... Stop blaming the game if you're not prepared to do the hard yards and fix YOUR issues. If the HHQ "boys" don't want to play like good children, then don't play at all...


"What man is a man that cannot bring good to the world?"

Balian of Ibelin

Thanks

Darren
Post #: 1
RE: Freedom of speech - 12/31/2006 6:37:29 AM   
Bucks


Posts: 685
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: Melbourne, Australia
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Sounds like a line from' "A Few Good Men"

"You can't handle the truth.."

Don't worry Dale I feel better that I'm in such illustrious company. We should start our own group, "People banned from HHQ forums" Who knows soon it might be the only group to be part of...

Darren
Post #: 2
RE: Freedom of speech - 12/31/2006 9:41:30 AM   
danrh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks

Sounds like a line from' "A Few Good Men"

"You can't handle the truth.."

Don't worry Dale I feel better that I'm in such illustrious company. We should start our own group, "People banned from HHQ forums" Who knows soon it might be the only group to be part of...

Darren


Oh theres already few of those. Perhaps the most suitable would be HarplonkHQ. Its a special place for folks who like to talk to themselves.

Funnily enough these days it seems the two sides in that little war have one big thing in common ie their opinions of various v3.7s. Ain't that interesting?

Daniel


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Post #: 3
RE: Freedom of speech - 12/31/2006 10:53:37 AM   
Bucks


Posts: 685
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Daniel,

What's your point?

HHQ and Herman have buried the hachet????

Cheers

Darren Buckley



_____________________________

*******************************************
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http://www.taitennek.com/hud3-db/hud3-index.htm

Development Team H3ANW v3.8, v3.9, v3.10 & v3.10.1
*******************************************

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Post #: 4
RE: Freedom of speech - 12/31/2006 12:49:15 PM   
danrh

 

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Joined: 6/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks

Daniel,

What's your point?

HHQ and Herman have buried the hachet????

Cheers

Darren Buckley




Oh dear Lord no, but I think you knew that anyway. I didn't think anything I said was particularly cryptic but anyway I was simply observing that despite everything else the two sides disagree on (with quite a significant amount of acrimony) it is interesting that both agree on a general level of suckiness in v3.7x. Previously the only things that could be agreed upon were fundamental stuff like "air is good" and "dead is not good" the sort of things that 99.9999% of humanity can agree on. Just found it interesting.

Daniel

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Post #: 5
RE: Freedom of speech - 12/31/2006 1:01:58 PM   
Flankerk

 

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It strikes me that all parties are agreed upon various problem areas that continue to exist.
When these are pointed out they are at times ignored or dismissed out of hand.
I suspect all of us want to see a fully functional 3.7 but we are trapped into something of a Catch 22 situation.

People are asked to convert over to 3.7 and likely would willingly do so. However when they try to, they find the SBR doesn't function properly. They might want to update their scenarios to 3.7 but the editors are not available.
The missions do not seem to work satisfactorily from most writers point of view so they can't post AAR's etc.

People want to support 3.7 but are unable to fully do so at present. The stance taken seems to typically blame Herman, blame HHQ or blame someone else. Its probably a tactic deliberately designed to unite the fans of the game

_____________________________



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#1 Quote of the Harpoon Community.

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Post #: 6
RE: Freedom of speech - 12/31/2006 1:29:57 PM   
Bucks


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From: Melbourne, Australia
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Dan and HHQ in general I have a question seeing as you gotten away from what I started this thread about.

DO YOU ALL BELIEVE THAT MY ADDITION TO THE HHQ FORUMS WAS DESERVING OF BEING BANNED FROM THAT FORUM?

I was just pointing out that in many ways HHQ has an agenda if I can't even post there. Why silence me when I could simply come here and make it public anyway.

It's about time you all started being "straight up" with the community. I contacted Ragnar before all other editors and offered to generate sigs for him. It took him days to get back to me. I was attempting to help the HHQ, in fact anyone that wanted help with sigs. My posts on HHQ were deleted...

Mr Mike Mykytyn (Bundy) obviously has a problem with me and any attempt I make to post to that forum. As I see it, if you posted Windows 95 for DL on a website, even if Microsoft don't support it, they'll have you in court. Why pick on something you like and a group with limited resources? Because you can get away with it?

If you don't think AGSI are fixing your issues, start sending me the relevant databases and scens and I'll take a look. So far all we get here is basically, "It doesn't work like it used to". No proof, no files just talk... Ask Herman, he raised an issue with me last week and it's now in Mantis (bug tracking software) and Darrel Dearing has confirmed and is working on it now. Play like good boys and you'll help it get fixed, keep being shonky (Shonky : dubious, underhanded. E.g. a shonky practice, shonky business etc. Au - slang) and we'll end up who knows where...

Darren Buckley

_____________________________

*******************************************
Editor HUD-II/HUD3 Harpoon Databases

http://www.taitennek.com/hud3-db/hud3-index.htm

Development Team H3ANW v3.8, v3.9, v3.10 & v3.10.1
*******************************************

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Post #: 7
RE: Freedom of speech - 12/31/2006 2:15:33 PM   
Flankerk

 

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Will try to catch you on mIRC at some stage. However your thread repeats the statement that we have pirated 3.6 which is I presume why you were banned?
I remain unclear how we can have pirated 3.6 when the thread indicated that serial numbers plus LOK and KEE's were required.
The thread on 3.6 was only posted after repeated requests from a number of customers. I say customers although they are of course customers of AGSI not us.

_____________________________



"Alas poor Yorick,I knew him Horatio"

#1 Quote of the Harpoon Community.

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Post #: 8
RE: Freedom of speech - 12/31/2006 3:09:13 PM   
Dagooz

 

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And you guys keep talking 'bout this "obvious agenda" of the hhq. Apparently I must be stupid since I havent figured out what that is yet! Instead of throwing rocks at each other why not make this game work instead? It's better use of everyones time.

(in reply to Flankerk)
Post #: 9
RE: Freedom of speech - 12/31/2006 3:36:01 PM   
Sunburn


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This whole shebang is actually pretty simple to follow, if you look at the bare facts.

1) AGSI sells 3.6.2. It's a (mostly) stable, working exe with some bugs & problems and no MP. Community supports this release strongly with scens, DBs etc. AGSI hosts & freely distributes the 3.6.2 exe since you cannot play without a valid LOK-KEE or SN file.

2) AGSI & Matrix release 3.7.0 (ANW). New features (MP primarily) but also lots of bugs, performance & stability issues. Community starts migrating their scens/DBs to the new version.

3) AGSI agressively pushes ANW (3.7) to users. Part of the push is the gradual phase-out of support for 3.6.2. Customers who submit bug/problem reports with 3.5x or 3.6x are advised to upgrade to (and pay for) ANW. AGSI also quietly pulls the 3.6.2 exe off their site.

4) AGSI also advises third-party content creators (Scen/DB designers) to adapt their work to ANW. This is a non-trivial task, particularly so for creators who have massive datasets & literally hundreds of scenarios to convert. Also, AGSI fails to provide content creators with the proper & updated tools (SBR, DB Editor etc.) that would facilitate the mass conversion of content to ANW standards. As a result, content is converted slowly and with many problems & difficulties.

5) AGSI & Matrix fail to capitalise on the premier new feature of ANW, multiplayer. Matrix does not offer any game-hosting servers, instead relying on the community to provide the resources (server hardware, fast net connection, lobby gateways) necessary for successful MP. Furthermore, the product itself reveals numerous problems and showstopper bugs in MP mode. As a result, the MP appeal of ANW to this day remains limited. Users keep asking for a properly working version of H3, features be damned. To this date, new features aside, 3.6.2 remains the most stable, working version.

6) Amidst widespread community complaints about the numerous defects of ANW, AGSI prepares the 3.7.3 version. Third-party content creators are again asked to update their scens & DBs. No proper SBR is provided, and the provision of the updated DB editor stalls on a number of issues, not all of them technical. The strong majority of community content remains on 3.6.2-compliant status. Version 3.7.3 fixes numerous problems but also introduces several new issues, documented by HHQ staff. AGSI/Matrix staff communicates poorly about the nature of these issues.

7) Community members increasingly complain about problems with 3.7. The HHQ staff advises customers to use 3.6.2 (the most trouble-free version yet) until the problems of 3.7+ are  resolved to a bigger extent. Unfortunately 3.6.2 is no longer available at AGSI or Matrix.

8) The HarpoonHQ hosts and freely distributes the 3.6.2 exe, the very same copy-protected exe that AGSI previously freely distributed from their site. The exe is not accompanied by any LOK-KEE or SN file, and hence cannot be used without a valid license - and hence cannot be used for piracy. Detailed instructions are also provided on how to use this exe, including contact information for AGSI (to obtain a valid license). The purpose of the release is:   
  1. To provide intermediate, short-term support relief to legitimate customers who care more about the stability & (mostly) trouble-free nature of the 3.6 exe than the MP &         other new features of ANW. This includes both pre-3.6 users and also ANW users     (since the 3.6 exe can be used on an ANW installation with little effort).
  2. To provide an added incentive to AGSI/Matrix to get busy and develop a stable,     working version of ANW - one at least as good as 3.6 in this respect. Such a version would immediately render 3.6.2 irrelevant.
  3. No other purpose.
The move is swiftly hailed by community members as a positive step forward, in terms of supporting the customer base.
HHQ staff members are asked, both on the forum and otherwise, to provide LOK-KEEs & SNs or even older (non-protected) versions of the game. They uniformly refuse, as this would promote piracy.

9) AGSI staff members (incl. the president, Don G.) immediately attack HHQ's initiative by spinning it as a move that "aids piracy". The HHQ site owner is threatened with legal action to remove the material. A heated public discussion ensues between AGSI & HHQ staff members; the records of the discussion are publicly available at the HarpoonHQ's forum. The HHQ site owner, after a second legal threat, removes the links to the material.

10) A customer at this very forum (Matrix) wonders aloud about the possibility of reverting to 3.6 after installing ANW. An HHQ staff member (and also AGSI customer and owner of every computer Harpoon version under the sun) responds that it is technically possible, but requires the 3.6.2 exe and a valid license from AGSI. He also provides a link to the HHQ forum thread which explains the process fully (though the links to the "offensive" material have already been removed). An AGSI staff member who also mods this forum deletes the post and threatens (bullies?) the HHQ member with a ban.

11) The AGSI staff member who started the entire "piracy" spin is banned from the HHQ forums for making a mountain out of a molehill.

These, then, are the facts.

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Post #: 10
RE: Freedom of speech - 12/31/2006 3:37:43 PM   
Bucks


Posts: 685
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: Melbourne, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks
If you don't think AGSI are fixing your issues, start sending me the relevant databases and scens and I'll take a look. So far all we get here is basically, "It doesn't work like it used to". No proof, no files just talk... Ask Herman, he raised an issue with me last week and it's now in Mantis (bug tracking software) and Darrel Dearing has confirmed and is working on it now.

Darren Buckley


Dagooz,

I think my offer is ample evidence of my efforts to fix things. As I pointed out send me the relevant DB & saved game what the issue is etc and I'll look at it, pull it apart for anyone regardless of affiliation to any group.

I just find it very hard to explain what the issues are or identify them, if I don't have something to work with in the first place.

Cheers

Darren Buckley

_____________________________

*******************************************
Editor HUD-II/HUD3 Harpoon Databases

http://www.taitennek.com/hud3-db/hud3-index.htm

Development Team H3ANW v3.8, v3.9, v3.10 & v3.10.1
*******************************************

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Post #: 11
RE: Freedom of speech - 12/31/2006 4:00:37 PM   
mikmyk


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Darren I was pretty clear as to why I banned you and frankly posting it here kinda helps that argument abit. I don't have the time for drama queen stuff and don't care to deal with it. Very sorry I had to ban you to get that point across. After so many posts you don't really give me any other choice. Like I said plenty of other places out there. Have fun at them!


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Post #: 12
RE: Freedom of speech - 12/31/2006 4:40:13 PM   
mikmyk


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Dale I've already emailed your boss as to why you were banned. Have a funny feeling he might agree. When cooler heads prevail I think things will be okay.
Post #: 13
RE: Freedom of speech - 12/31/2006 4:48:35 PM   
Bucks


Posts: 685
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What is your point?

That people with opposing views to your own should just push off, yeah good on ya.

I attempted to add to the HHQ forum 4 times you removed them all and on the 4th you ban me. If you like I'll post your messages to me, and the forum here can try to work out from your riddles what the hell I was supposed to do. I even asked you to send me a "script" so I knew what was allowed...

FORUM: Noun
1. A public meeting or assembly for open discussion
2. A public facility to meet for open discussion

Obiviously these definitions slipped by the folks at HHQ.

I've had enough and refuse to waste another second on this drivel.

Darren Buckley



_____________________________

*******************************************
Editor HUD-II/HUD3 Harpoon Databases

http://www.taitennek.com/hud3-db/hud3-index.htm

Development Team H3ANW v3.8, v3.9, v3.10 & v3.10.1
*******************************************

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Post #: 14
RE: Freedom of speech - 12/31/2006 4:55:24 PM   
mikmyk


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quote:



I've had enough and refuse to waste another second on this drivel.

Darren Buckley




You finally got it. Great! Cya Darren

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Post #: 15
RE: Freedom of speech - 12/31/2006 5:43:51 PM   
Sunburn


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Dale, I could go on and counter your arguments one by one but that would only mean dragging this thing on to eternity. I am in complete agreement with Mike that this kabosh has already consumed too much time, energy and attention. In any case, your dear boss got what he wanted; arm-twisting and all. I stated the facts - the interpretation is anyone's privilege, including yours. The community is pretty smart alright, and has already made its voice heard. We made our point, and so did you. Let greed guide you at your own peril. For us, it's a hobby. Take care and have a happy new year.

BTW, everyone is strongly advised to check out JPK's opinion at "that thread" at the HHQ forums. While I don't agree with everything being said, its tone and maturity are aspects that certain people are well-advised to emulate.


< Message edited by Sunburn -- 12/31/2006 5:56:03 PM >


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RE: Freedom of speech - 12/31/2006 5:54:06 PM   
HercMighty


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All I have to say is I was one of those that felt he was forced into 3.7. The game is no longer on my HD and now only games I buy are from Panther and SSG at this point.

Maybe AGSI should look at those forums? Though I still cannot believe that a game made back in what the 80's is still being patched because it is still seriously broke. And the way that the forums are I can't see how it will be ever fixed. The amount of fighting is bordering on obnixious. And a lot of of it is started by AGSI itself.

You give the customers Beta patches, but we aren't on the Beta team. AGSI no longer wants the customers to see the internal database of bugs, why is that? Oh and by the way when that was posted by a member here it was outrageous, so maybe I do know. But the point is you now have a select group of people on a Beta team and it is not enough.

I dunno, maybe when the new Harpoon comes out I will take a look, I just have this funny feeling that it will never see the light of day.

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Post #: 17
RE: Freedom of speech - 1/2/2007 12:05:39 AM   
Hertston


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Forgive me for intruding on such private grief as a Harpoon newb. Maybe a perspective without the personal baggage may help a little.

The situation, as I understand it, seems to be thus. My apologies in advantage if I have misunderstood or misinterpreted anything or anybody.


1. Harpoon HQ were distributing, by making available a download link, an earlier version of Harpoon (3.6.2) to the one I purchased via Matrix (3.7)

2. They did this because some (maybe many for all I know) of the leading lights there believe, rightly or wrongly, that 3.6.2 is superior in terms of playability and, in particular, general non broken-ness to 3.7.

3. It has been suggested that that was not in fact their motivation, which was in fact some sort of attempt to torpedo development of 3.7. I can see little to support that.

4. The downloadable 3.6.2 .exe could not be installed and played without already having (from previous purchase) or obtaining (after Matrix purchase) a KEE file from AGSI.

5. There seems no doubt that, while Harpoon HQ were distributing 3.6.2 they had legal right to do so, such rights being exclusively with AGSI/Matrix.


OK so far? If so, my conclusions, based on what I have read here and over there are as follows.


1. Allegations of facilitating 'piracy' do seem dubious at best. The situation seems no different to what it was when ANSI distributed the file in that regard. Would anyone care to speculate as to the number of actual sales lost even if a few keys were floating around the internet for all those FPS and RTS fiends to find? My guess is you wouldn't need more than the fingers of one hand to count them.

2. Despite the above, Harpoon HQ cannot distribute 3.6.2 without the consent of AGSI, which they don't have and seem very unlikely to get.

3. There is a genuine belief among many in the community that 3.6.2 is superior to 3.7 as it currently stands. This is evidenced firstly by the fact that they still choose to play it, and secondly that there seems no possible motivation to lie about it.

4. As a Matrix purchaser of 3.7 I do not currently have the opportunity to judge who is right.

Finally, 5. 3.6.2 should be made available for download by somebody, ANSI/Matrix if not Harpoon HQ, obviously still with the need to obtain a key from ANSI to play it, this being provided on evidence of purchase. I can see no reason for not doing so. Clearly ANSI believe 3.7 superior but equally clearly several people with almost as much knowledge of the game do not agree with them. There is no need to 'support' 3.6.2 beyond noting the readme file that it IS unsupported. After a patch or three to 3.7 hopefully everybody will happily move to that version anyway, but in the meantime why not provide the choice?

Oh, and I forgot

6. Banning the game developers from a fansite has to be about the dumbest thing I've heard of in a decade of computer wargaming. The second dumbest thing is the existence of such a schism in the community of such a niche product. Time everybody on both 'sides' got their bloody act together. No offence.

< Message edited by Hertston -- 1/2/2007 12:34:11 AM >

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Post #: 18
RE: Freedom of speech - 1/2/2007 2:11:04 AM   
mikmyk


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quote:


6. Banning the game developers from a fansite has to be about the dumbest thing I've heard of in a decade of computer wargaming. The second dumbest thing is the existence of such a schism in the community of such a niche product. Time everybody on both 'sides' got their bloody act together. No offence.


Naw. Banned Dale and Darren although I think that was how they were spinning it when it first happened. They were mad and they brought it here to get some attention. Thats fine.

The principles know the deal as does AGSI. Its about separating the combatants till everybody is cool and mitigating the noise. Is that dumb?

Thanks


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Post #: 19
RE: Freedom of speech - 1/2/2007 9:02:17 PM   
emsoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks

I don't really care actually because I've just started pulling the DB2K apart and it's screwed... That is the database has serious issues that will effect gameplay and may even cause users to assume the actual game is buggy... Stop blaming the game if you're not prepared to do the hard yards and fix YOUR issues. If the HHQ "boys" don't want to play like good children, then don't play at all...



Heh. That's pretty weak... AGSI even tries to divert attention from their broken software by attacking the HarpoonHQ's DB2K database project.

Darren, had you done some basic research (such as actually reading my bug reports) you would have known that all the bugs I have reported were experienced with databases created by AGSI. And since you didn't read what I wrote I'll say this again too: none of the many bugs I reported last week have anything to do with database design.

The bugs are 100% broken code.

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Post #: 20
RE: Freedom of speech - 1/4/2007 9:35:30 AM   
emsoy


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I'm still waiting for a reply from Darren (and AGSI) explaining how the DB2K database is broken, and how the DB2K database would the the cause of buggy behaviour in the broken 3.7 exe if that database wasn't even in use.

Has anyone else noticed how the AGSI dudes always duck and go quiet when we call their bluffs?

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Post #: 21
RE: Freedom of speech - 1/4/2007 8:47:29 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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As posted in another thread, Darren is away until next week.

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Post #: 22
RE: Freedom of speech - 1/5/2007 7:07:58 AM   
Jeff Gilbert

 

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I have been playing Harpoon for quite a while now, ever since the ThreeSixty days to be exact. I took a break for a few years and then found the product Jessie Spears was keeping alive and promptly bought two copies, one for my Mac & the other for my Windows box. Both ended up patched to 3.6.3

Coming back to the community, I received a lot of helpful assistance from Herman and other guys in the forums as the learning curve was quite steep from what I had remembered. Also, I was pointed to quite a few great scenarios and db projects. MikMyk is still off my Christmas Card list for "The Humbler" scenario.

I have been tottering at the edge of purchasing 3.7.x because I want to step into the multi-player arena to see if I am as good as I think or wish I am. Also, not having support for the Mac platform sucks but, I can live with it and I understand the nightmare of trying to support a product for two platforms.

However (here it comes), all this bickering has made me hesitate on pulling the trigger. If the final (none beta) 3.7.3 patch, when released, proves stable for MP action AND solitare play ... I'll jump in in a second and to hell with the remaining bugs as I am confident that they will be addressed in due time.
And, perhaps in the future a new UI.

I guess the bottom line for me is the fact that I think Harpoon is one of the most unique, interesting, fun and realistic games (simulation) on the market and I want to keep supporting it with my $$.

To the developers - keep up the good work.
To the players - keep pushing for improvements.

From me - my thanks.


_____________________________

Jeff Gilbert
US Army [Ret]
Palm Harbor, Florida, USA

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 23
RE: Freedom of speech - 1/5/2007 7:48:17 AM   
emsoy


Posts: 2053
Joined: 5/12/2006
From: A cold and snowy place far to the north!
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Gilbert

However (here it comes), all this bickering has made me hesitate on pulling the trigger. If the final (none beta) 3.7.3 patch, when released, proves stable for MP action AND solitare play ... I'll jump in in a second and to hell with the remaining bugs as I am confident that they will be addressed in due time.
And, perhaps in the future a new UI.



Looking at certain bug report threads on this forum, I seriously doubt this game will ever reach a playable stage unless AGSI cut their crap and start shaping up.

_____________________________



Database guru, sensor model developer, system tester and senior scenario designer in the "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to Jeff Gilbert)
Post #: 24
RE: Freedom of speech - 1/5/2007 8:32:07 AM   
TonyE


Posts: 1509
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline
On the other hand 3.7.3 beta has been stable in Multiplayer play.  I can only speak to trying out bits and pieces of scens in solitair but haven't seen a stability problem there either.  There are functional difficulties, but wow is it multiplayer Harpoon :) and fun even with some warts.

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to emsoy)
Post #: 25
RE: Freedom of speech - 1/8/2007 5:45:11 PM   
Bucks


Posts: 685
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

I'm still waiting for a reply from Darren (and AGSI)


I do not "work" for AGSI. I have never received payment for any contribution I have made to game development. Any opinion I express here is my own and is not at any time to be viewed as official AGSI policy. As part of the testing and development team I have freely volunteered my time to this project so my opinions are my own.

If you would like me to point out some of your issues so they can be resolved I would be more than happy to expand on my concerns in the Database Design and Modding thread.

eg. The lack of any I/O values for the AIM-54 seeker which seems to be guided purely by datalink... Without an active seeker the missile is now classified by the engine as "command", guided and will not trigger point defence calculations for aircraft equipped with chaff and flare type decoys. -> Compliance issue not just related to the AIM-54.

There are 11 non-platform dat files in the game. These files when loaded in the RE (Reimer Editor) show an aggregate of 27% non-use. Therefore close to a quarter of the DB2K is made up of redundant records. Close to half of the weapon records serve no purpose at all? This issue could be worse when viewed in light of the possibility of some of the used records actually being utilised by unused entries and therefore falling redundant also. -> Exaggerated claims as to the size of the DB2k over the years?

Finally continuous accusations of copying this, that and the other has poisoned the atmosphere here. I believe we should all just shut up about it. From my research all of the 3rd Party databases available for use today originated from the ODB. I think we should all take "copying/borrowing" as a way of keeping the game alive. Variety is after all the "spice of life". We all complain about the ODB, but it's the basis for all of our work and Darrel Dearing and Rod Graves should be comended for the job they managed to do under such trying circumstances as they faced while working on the H2 project. If anyone should be upset it would be these two gentlemen who gave us the "bricks" to build our present databases. (We've all copied it at some point haven't we editors?)

I have already offered a pre-release version of the HUD3 to Herman so he can update any HUD-II platforms in the PDB to HUD3/H3ANW 3.8 specs. I can't see what purpose is served by denying him use of my update if it means he can move the PDB and his scens forward with the game. I'm sorry but I'd rather see a substantial "branch" of the Harpoon family continue to prosper (Players Database - PDB) than then attempt to lop it off and destroy other enthuiasts hard and dedicated work.

I have already stated that continuing this discussion is a pointless exercise while we are engaged in nothing more than childish and inane mud slinging. I have offered to provide advice and or assistance to your group previously, Ragnar. I can only say I was viewed with suspicion bordering on paranoia by members of HHQ upon my return to the Harpoon scene. Regardless I am more than happy to engage in a constructive discussion on any issues you wish to raise and my offer still stands of assistance to HHQ members although I wont be renewing my subscription to your forum for obvious reasons, i.e. the title of this thread.

Thanks in advance

Darren Buckley

< Message edited by Bucks -- 1/8/2007 6:17:28 PM >


_____________________________

*******************************************
Editor HUD-II/HUD3 Harpoon Databases

http://www.taitennek.com/hud3-db/hud3-index.htm

Development Team H3ANW v3.8, v3.9, v3.10 & v3.10.1
*******************************************

(in reply to emsoy)
Post #: 26
RE: Freedom of speech - 1/9/2007 10:05:11 AM   
emsoy


Posts: 2053
Joined: 5/12/2006
From: A cold and snowy place far to the north!
Status: offline
Hahahahahaha! In spite your best efforts to diss the DB2000 database, is this all you could come up with?!

Man... that's just... weak!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks
If you would like me to point out some of your issues so they can be resolved I would be more than happy to expand on my concerns in the Database Design and Modding thread.


This has nothing to do with providing help. It is a cheap attempt to smear the reputation of the DB2000 database, and to get some attention for yourself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks
eg. The lack of any I/O values for the AIM-54 seeker which seems to be guided purely by datalink... Without an active seeker the missile is now classified by the engine as "command", guided and will not trigger point defence calculations for aircraft equipped with chaff and flare type decoys. -> Compliance issue not just related to the AIM-54.


Hm... it's strange that you didn't ask why the seeker is implemented this way... What's the chance that this implementation is a workaround to compensate for the many bugs in a certian Harpoon3.7 ANW exe..? I'm sorry to say but your above comment kinda makes me wonder if you have spent any time playing/testing this game at all...

Oh and BTW, had you read the Harpoon3 manual you would have known that planes don't drop chaff/flares. Defensive maneuvers and decoys are handled as part of the defensive ATA value.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks
There are 11 non-platform dat files in the game. These files when loaded in the RE (Reimer Editor) show an aggregate of 27% non-use. Therefore close to a quarter of the DB2K is made up of redundant records. Close to half of the weapon records serve no purpose at all? This issue could be worse when viewed in light of the possibility of some of the used records actually being utilised by unused entries and therefore falling redundant also.


Errr... I'm not sure what your point here really is... other than showing everyone that you may not know an awfull lot about the basics of Harpoon3 database design...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks

-> Exaggerated claims as to the size of the DB2k over the years?


Hehe Darren it sounds like you still are jealous at the DB2K's size and complexity, even 10 years on...

But lets have a look at this page:

http://www.harpoonhq.com/whatis.htm

It says:

"It [the DB2000] contains more than 4000 ships, submarines, aircraft and land facilities plus about 1600 weapons. In other words, the complete 1980-2015 Order of Battle for more than 60 countries."

My claim is that the database contains 4000 platforms. However, the actual number for the 10.0.1 beta database is 5100+ active platforms. Go and check for youself.

And your HUD3 database contains how many platforms? Barely 800? 600? I guess it's pretty obvious what's going on here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks
Finally continuous accusations of copying this, that and the other has poisoned the atmosphere here. I believe we should all just shut up about it. From my research all of the 3rd Party databases available for use today originated from the ODB. I think we should all take "copying/borrowing" as a way of keeping the game alive. Variety is after all the "spice of life". We all complain about the ODB, but it's the basis for all of our work and Darrel Dearing and Rod Graves should be comended for the job they managed to do under such trying circumstances as they faced while working on the H2 project. If anyone should be upset it would be these two gentlemen who gave us the "bricks" to build our present databases. (We've all copied it at some point haven't we editors?)


I guess people can go and check out the following thread, where Darren (Bucks) accuses a guy working for AGSI (Dale Hillier) of copying his work. And then we can start talking about who's poisoning the atmosphere in here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1220127&mpage=1&key=?

So according to you Darren it is okay that people like Herman systematically steal the HarpoonHQ's work. Yet you go out and create a mess over someone copying something utterly useless from your own database... By comparison, Herman has copied hundreds if not thousands of platforms from the DB2000, yet I am told to hush up.

Can anyone say 'Double Standards'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks
I have already offered a pre-release version of the HUD3 to Herman so he can update any HUD-II platforms in the PDB to HUD3/H3ANW 3.8 specs. I can't see what purpose is served by denying him use of my update if it means he can move the PDB and his scens forward with the game. I'm sorry but I'd rather see a substantial "branch" of the Harpoon family continue to prosper (Players Database - PDB) than then attempt to lop it off and destroy other enthuiasts hard and dedicated work.


Herman's PlagarizedDB isn't based on hard and dedicated work. It is a highly disfunctional rip-off of the DB2000 database, and Herman has in fact admitted he's been 'cloning' our work. Even the scenarios created for the PlagarizedDB contain elements stolen from the scenarios posted on the HarpoonHQ, which really says a lot...

I also doubt that Herman will 'borrow' much stuff from the HUD3 database. Since the PlagarizedDB contains so much material stolen from the DB2000, implementing stuff from the HUD3 would be a great step back in quality over Herman's current PlagarizedDB.

BTW you can find the thread where Herman admitted he's stolen our work on this very forum. Go and look in the archives.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks
I have already stated that continuing this discussion is a pointless exercise while we are engaged in nothing more than childish and inane mud slinging. I have offered to provide advice and or assistance to your group previously, Ragnar. I can only say I was viewed with suspicion bordering on paranoia by members of HHQ upon my return to the Harpoon scene. Regardless I am more than happy to engage in a constructive discussion on any issues you wish to raise and my offer still stands of assistance to HHQ members although I wont be renewing my subscription to your forum for obvious reasons, i.e. the title of this thread.


Anyone can go and read the first post of this thread can see who the guy behind the 'inane mud slinging' really is. And yeah I can understand that you would like to end this discussion since it uncovers certain untruths that you prolly don't want the community to know about...

< Message edited by emsoy -- 1/9/2007 10:23:44 AM >


_____________________________



Database guru, sensor model developer, system tester and senior scenario designer in the "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to Bucks)
Post #: 27
RE: Freedom of speech - 1/9/2007 4:42:52 PM   
Bucks


Posts: 685
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

I guess people can go and check out the following thread, where Darren (Bucks) accuses a guy working for AGSI (Dale Hillier) of copying his work. And then we can start talking about who's poisoning the atmosphere in here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1220127&mpage=1&key=?


People can check what they wish, although I am amazed that you seem to see Dale's name where it obviously doesn't appear. I said I'd deal with the issue in the future... How the hell do you know that it hasn't been dealt with, in fact I know full well but I have to ask why you assumed it was Dale????? Because a "little birdy" passed on a message?

That's plain and simple mudraking.

Probably a little like some of the comments that have been passed around on the HHQ forums about myself, while I'm banned and cannot reply or even read them. At least some people have a sense of right and wrong and have been good enough to, "fill in the gaps" for me.

quote:

Hahahahahaha! In spite your best efforts to diss the DB2000 database, is this all you could come up with?!


No Ragnar, I'm not trying to "dis" anything about the DB2000. I specifically mentioned that I was discussing the 11 non-platform .dat files, and did not say anything about the size or complexity or the DB2000. I was simply pointing out that you have a substantial number of unused records in the database. Therefore it would be logical to question the actual size, if say you were to remove these records? I was more concerned that such a large number of unused entries may eventually lead to a degree of instability. Take it as you see fit.

If my intention was to besmerch the DB2000 surely I would have gone looking harder than I did? I just pointed out some things take them as you like. It just seems to me to be a bit rich that you react so agressively to what could only be described as minor issues, yet are normally quick on the draw if others attempt to post alternative opinions. I'm sure anyone reading these threads would have reached an opinion on that issue independantly.

quote:

Hm... it's strange that you didn't ask why the seeker is implemented this way... What's the chance that this implementation is a workaround to compensate for the many bugs in a certian Harpoon3.7 ANW exe..? I'm sorry to say but your above comment kinda makes me wonder if you have spent any time playing/testing this game at all...


Hmmm seeing as I've been testing 3.7+ -> 3.8 I may have more experience than yourself when it comes to the new executable (3.8)? There is no need for a "workaround" when the seekers activate correctly in game and in fact model reality well. Please feel free to check with Dale Hillier on ATA seeker activation, I'm sure he will confirm my statement.

quote:

Oh and BTW, had you read the Harpoon3 manual you would have known that planes don't drop chaff/flares. Defensive maneuvers and decoys are handled as part of the defensive ATA value.


Well I've done one better, and read the Miniatures rules that the PC simulation is based on and have been helping with the drafts of the new 3.8 manual. Dale and I both agree on the implementation of a "generational" model from the miniatures rules, which looks like this: 1st Gen -5% / 2nd Gen -10% / 3rd Gen -15% / 4th Gen -20%. This reflects the generational values given in the Harpoon 4/4.1 data annexes, i.e.

INVINCIBLE - CVH -> (From H4 data annex)
Electronic Counterm: 3rd Gen J & D

That equates to both chaff/flares from SBROC type launchers at -15% and an ECM system giving the same -15% modifier. This value is also given for aircraft and so chaff/flare launchers are pretty much part of the game for aircraft now. Your choice about implementation in the DB2000.

Our aim was to both stick to the Minis rules and introduce a greater degree of realism to the game. The simple reliance on a "generic" DATA value lacks much in the way of even a semi-valid ECM model. An early model MiG-21 will have a high DATA value but its ECM capabilities will be limited. The introduction of this system builds on the various mounts and decoy type weapons that were originally in the game way back in Harpoon 2, and now that the correct application of the reduction to the attacking %kill has been established the reference that you make to the manual is slightly dated. Also with the AIM-54 never going active, any aircraft fitted with a RWR - Radar warning Receiver/ESM system would not gain any advantage from this sensor. The defending aircraft may very well detect the F-14's fire control radar but would never know it was directly under attack by the Phoenix when it went active. We'd be back to the "Mk1 eyeball" to warn pilots they better start dodging and weaving. Again my view, not an "Attack" on your database, nothing more than a personal observation from using it for testing 3.8.

You will find that large parts of the H3 ANW 3.8 manual have been or are being rewritten. Many of the points above are covered in that. Again I "perceived" that I was helping out, not starting a "witch hunt" on the DB2000. This may be a simple matter of your own developmental model for the DB2000, I have no issue with that, as it's a philosophical one; nothing more.

quote:

This has nothing to do with providing help. It is a cheap attempt to smear the reputation of the DB2000 database, and to get some attention for yourself.


Sorry if that's your opinion. My offer was a genuine one and was not intended to gain any attention or anything except the continued progression of the game. It's well understood that the majority of players use the resources of the HHQ DB2000 included. If you'd prefer I will simply refrain from offering any assistance to your group or those affliated with it, the choice is yours and I'm more than happy to abide by it.


quote:

I also doubt that Herman will 'borrow' much stuff from the HUD3 database. Since the PlagarizedDB contains so much material stolen from the DB2000, implementing stuff from the HUD3 would be a great step back in quality over Herman's current PlagarizedDB.


I can't help but gain the impression from you that basically anything but the DB2000 is worth playing with. Like Herman, Dale, Paul, Tom and Mike @WW2 and myself should give this DB editing away because you have it covered? If you refer to the thread you previously mentioned, you see the following:

quote:

I know that I can speak on behalf of all those involved with the PlayersDB.

Without your efforts, and those of other editors like Brad Leyte (HCDB) Fred Galano (H3Db), and Rene Haar (HC-EuroDB), there would be NO PlayersDB.

Many thanks.


That's from Herman. I know that will count as nothing to you guys, but Herman's a good guy regardless of the flak aimed at him constantly.

Seeing as he's used substantial records from the HUD-II and since I'm working on bringing the HUD-II to H3ANW 3.8 spec I decided to rename the database to HUD3. My offer to Herman is to allow him to make any adjustments required to the relevant platforms that I've changed. This would do nothing but allow continuity of his database and the scenarios designed for use with it, by removing any remaining errors I'd identified and corrected, fuel consumption, cross section values etc. At the same time provide a substantial update to bring the PDB closer to 3.8 compliance. If it saved Herman work all the better he could then concentrate on any scenario editing required.

quote:

Anyone can go and read the first post of this thread can see who the guy behind the 'inane mud slinging' really is. And yeah I can understand that you would like to end this discussion since it uncovers certain untruths that you prolly don't want the community to know about...


Yes they can and make up their own minds. You keep saying the "community" is full of smart people, but you maintain a constant barrage of complaint, inuendo and negativity obviously designed to sway people's attitudes. The first post was in this thread came from me due to a total frustration at having every single post I tried to enter into the HHQ forum deleted... I posted the thread so that people could see what I'd had to say, I wanted to express an opinion - "freedom of speech" I was banned and not just for that post but the "warnings" started as soon as I tried to offer people database signatures on the HHQ forum, my very first attempt.

These warnings were neither specific about what was wrong with my posts to your forum, nor did they offer any advice as to how I should word them to allow their posting. I'm sorry I expected that would be the role of a "moderator" when excercising his/her authority. I could have easily lived with being advised of the offending part of anything I'd written and being given the opportunity to exercise either self-censorship or simply not posting. I was never given this choice and hence I started this thread "Freedon of Speech". I have to admit now that I seem to have been suffering from way too much sun to have even attempted to help. As I've mentioned earlier my offers were all genuine, take that as you may...

Ragnar, when I returned to this "scene" maybe I didn't want to get caught up in this rubbish again? The "Untruths" you mentioned may very well be that. They may simply be idle gossip that was distributed selectively. Imagine this for a minute, I tell 4 people something offhandedly in an effort to test their character. Does it matter if what I say is true or not if I'm doing nothing more than testing their character? From where I stand it doesn't, it's not about the "remark", it's about the character of the people mate and what they do with what I tell them. Anyway I know where I stand now and I know that Dale Hillier and myself have been working co-operatively on this project for some months. I also don't appreciate such aggressive posts from yourself and the impression of "threats" or the open questioning of my character to achieve what end?

Cheers

Darren



_____________________________

*******************************************
Editor HUD-II/HUD3 Harpoon Databases

http://www.taitennek.com/hud3-db/hud3-index.htm

Development Team H3ANW v3.8, v3.9, v3.10 & v3.10.1
*******************************************

(in reply to emsoy)
Post #: 28
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