Spain joins the Axis

Gary Grigsby’s World at War is back with a whole new set of features. World at War: A World Divided still gives complete control over the production, research and military strategy for your side, but in this new updated version you’ll also be able to bring spies into the mix as well as neutral country diplomacy, variable political events and much more. Perhaps the largest item is the ability to play a special Soviet vs. Allies scenario that occurs after the end of World War II.

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sveint
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Spain joins the Axis

Post by sveint »

I'm playing Germany in a PBEM - when I load my turn Spain offers to join the Axis! I happily accept, discovering that not only can they produce infantry but also bombers and some other goodies.

However, given some time to think about it, I'd say it's rather unfair (to the Western Allies, and I suppose the Soviets too). I did absolutely nothing, all I did was get lucky! So would it be possible to...

a) make it cost supplies to try to activate Spain instead?
b) have an option in the setup where it and other tiny-percentage chances are turned off

All in the interest of 'balanced' PBEM play.
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Uncle_Joe
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RE: Spain joins the Axis

Post by Uncle_Joe »

We went back and forth on this in the beta. Personally, I never cared for that simply random chance of certain dramatically game-changing events (like Spain). But in the end, for the sake of variability from game to game, they are probably here to stay (although I could eventually see an option or scenario that removes certain events from the table).
 
As 'compensation' for Spanish entry, there is a boost of +3 to US WR. Its small compensation, but it can mean the US coming in an extra turn or two earlier.
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RE: Spain joins the Axis

Post by WanderingHead »

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe
(although I could eventually see an option or scenario that removes certain events from the table).

That would require that the events be in the data files. At the moment, there is no way to mod this.
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RE: Spain joins the Axis

Post by GKar »

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead

That would require that the events be in the data files. At the moment, there is no way to mod this.
It should be possible to work around this by setting certain events to "has occurred" in wawgoldscendat[YEAR].txt.
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RE: Spain joins the Axis

Post by WanderingHead »

ORIGINAL: GKar
ORIGINAL: WanderingHead

That would require that the events be in the data files. At the moment, there is no way to mod this.
It should be possible to work around this by setting certain events to "has occurred" in wawgoldscendat[YEAR].txt.

OK, you could do this to completely remove the event from happening. But it doesn't leave any room for changing the probabilities or the event prerequisites.

In WAW1, the (much simpler) political rules could all be adjusted by defining frozen zones and the various events that would unfreeze each zone.
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RE: Spain joins the Axis

Post by GKar »

Yes, but it fulfills what Uncle_Joe wanted to 100%. [;)]
ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe
(although I could eventually see an option or scenario that removes certain events from the table).
That said, more modding options never hurt. [:'(]
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RE: Spain joins the Axis

Post by wargameplayer »

I think having random events and being able to turn them off or on manually would be interesting. The big ones are 1) Late/Early or no entry by the USA/USSR 2) Activiation of Spain 3) Surrender of the UK and its forces --come on now. if The germans were in London. the UK would have surrendered for sure.

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RE: Spain joins the Axis

Post by WanderingHead »

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer
I think having random events and being able to turn them off or on manually would be interesting. The big ones are 1) Late/Early or no entry by the USA/USSR 2) Activiation of Spain 3) Surrender of the UK and its forces --come on now. if The germans were in London. the UK would have surrendered for sure.

#1 can be done to some extent. Huge WR thresholds can be set in the data files that would never be reached.

#3 might be possible. There are Italian surrender rules, covering a single nation which is part of a player (Germany being the player). Copying the syntax for Italy might work for Britain (though I wouldn't be optimistic).

Actually, I do think that adding appropriate surrender rules for the Allies would be nice. It would be a way to play the war to actual VICTORY instead of a VP based pseudo-victory, and would be realistic. E.g. Russia could easily have collapsed into chaos and effectively surrendered. It is perfectly realistic and possible, but the game does not allow for it.

I was actually thinking that what would be best is if the Vichy surrender rules could be generic, so that one could have Russia surrender leading to everything W of the Urals going German, everything E of the Urals becoming Neutral.

Similarly, under appropriate situations India and Australia should surrender. Similar to Italy, a simple surrender (units disappear, but territories don't change hands) might be possible for individual nations.


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RE: Spain joins the Axis

Post by wargameplayer »

Right once you are pushing into Tibet with german panzers it starts to seems silly. At the very least the units would probably disappear just like the french does. Saying that the only allies that would ever surrender are French--and not the uk, russia or elsewhere seems really unlikely.

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead
ORIGINAL: wargameplayer
I think having random events and being able to turn them off or on manually would be interesting. The big ones are 1) Late/Early or no entry by the USA/USSR 2) Activiation of Spain 3) Surrender of the UK and its forces --come on now. if The germans were in London. the UK would have surrendered for sure.

#1 can be done to some extent. Huge WR thresholds can be set in the data files that would never be reached.

#3 might be possible. There are Italian surrender rules, covering a single nation which is part of a player (Germany being the player). Copying the syntax for Italy might work for Britain (though I wouldn't be optimistic).

Actually, I do think that adding appropriate surrender rules for the Allies would be nice. It would be a way to play the war to actual VICTORY instead of a VP based pseudo-victory, and would be realistic. E.g. Russia could easily have collapsed into chaos and effectively surrendered. It is perfectly realistic and possible, but the game does not allow for it.

I was actually thinking that what would be best is if the Vichy surrender rules could be generic, so that one could have Russia surrender leading to everything W of the Urals going German, everything E of the Urals becoming Neutral.

Similarly, under appropriate situations India and Australia should surrender. Similar to Italy, a simple surrender (units disappear, but territories don't change hands) might be possible for individual nations.


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RE: Spain joins the Axis

Post by Timmeh »

Italy's troops need to be accounted for and if not careful can lead to doom for Germany (having Italian militia on guard at a crucial territory when Italian surrender is possible), the commonwealth would certainly need to be careful if it suffered this logistical reality.
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RE: Spain joins the Axis

Post by WanderingHead »

ORIGINAL: Timmeh
Italy's troops need to be accounted for and if not careful can lead to doom for Germany (having Italian militia on guard at a crucial territory when Italian surrender is possible), the commonwealth would certainly need to be careful if it suffered this logistical reality.

Excellent point. And while the game does distinguish Italian and French units, it does not visually distinguish Commonwealth units.

But I know that it does in the background, so you, the player, would be left with no way of knowing which units would disappear. Not good.
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RE: Spain joins the Axis

Post by Twotribes »

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer

I think having random events and being able to turn them off or on manually would be interesting. The big ones are 1) Late/Early or no entry by the USA/USSR 2) Activiation of Spain 3) Surrender of the UK and its forces --come on now. if The germans were in London. the UK would have surrendered for sure.


You forget that the UK was not JUST England/Scotland/Wales. Assuming the Government or a portion of it got out, there is every reason to believe Canada and India would have fought on. South Africa would have stopped for sure. Australia and New Zealand had no reason to surrender either.
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RE: Spain joins the Axis

Post by WanderingHead »

ORIGINAL: Twotribes
ORIGINAL: wargameplayer

I think having random events and being able to turn them off or on manually would be interesting. The big ones are 1) Late/Early or no entry by the USA/USSR 2) Activiation of Spain 3) Surrender of the UK and its forces --come on now. if The germans were in London. the UK would have surrendered for sure.


You forget that the UK was not JUST England/Scotland/Wales. Assuming the Government or a portion of it got out, there is every reason to believe Canada and India would have fought on. South Africa would have stopped for sure. Australia and New Zealand had no reason to surrender either.

But these are not all part of the UK. Only India was. Others were part of the Commonwealth.

India probably would have stopped fighting. There was an independence movement that saw the war as a vehicle to independence. The other nations of the Commonwealth probably would have kept fighting, although perhaps in defense of their own lands not the fractured Empire.

I interpreted the wargameplayer's suggestion as meaning the the United Kingdom of Wales+England+Scotland would surrender, the rest would do something else.
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RE: Spain joins the Axis

Post by wargameplayer »

You forget France had colonies too and they surrender when eastern or western france is taken. If England was taken over, the same sort of Vichy negotiation would have taken place with agreement from other colonies to make peace. If a new government in the UK and the King says --hey we are at peace now with Germany --I think New Zealand would be hard pressed to be sending out the divisions rampaging across North Africa to save mother England.

For england, I think you could make the argument that england requires more strategic territories to fall in order to get surrender terms. i.e. London, Suez, Delhi cause automatic surrender. Or at least have an option for that surrender to occur.
ORIGINAL: Twotribes
ORIGINAL: wargameplayer

I think having random events and being able to turn them off or on manually would be interesting. The big ones are 1) Late/Early or no entry by the USA/USSR 2) Activiation of Spain 3) Surrender of the UK and its forces --come on now. if The germans were in London. the UK would have surrendered for sure.


You forget that the UK was not JUST England/Scotland/Wales. Assuming the Government or a portion of it got out, there is every reason to believe Canada and India would have fought on. South Africa would have stopped for sure. Australia and New Zealand had no reason to surrender either.
RE: Spain joins the Axis - 11/6/2006 5:47:50 PM
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe
(although I could eventually see an option or scenario that removes certain events from the table).



That would require that the events be in the data files. At the moment, there is no way to mod this.

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RE: Spain joins the Axis - 11/6/2006 6:06:06 PM
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead

That would require that the events be in the data files. At the moment, there is no way to mod this.


It should be possible to work around this by setting certain events to "has occurred" in wawgoldscendat[YEAR].txt.

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RE: Spain joins the Axis - 11/6/2006 8:04:29 PM
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GKar

quote:

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead

That would require that the events be in the data files. At the moment, there is no way to mod this.


It should be possible to work around this by setting certain events to "has occurred" in wawgoldscendat[YEAR].txt.



OK, you could do this to completely remove the event from happening. But it doesn't leave any room for changing the probabilities or the event prerequisites.

In WAW1, the (much simpler) political rules could all be adjusted by defining frozen zones and the various events that would unfreeze each zone.


< Message edited by WanderingHead -- 11/6/2006 8:08:25 PM >

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RE: Spain joins the Axis - 11/6/2006 9:41:11 PM
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GKar
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Status: offline Yes, but it fulfills what Uncle_Joe wanted to 100%.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe
(although I could eventually see an option or scenario that removes certain events from the table).


That said, more modding options never hurt.

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RE: Spain joins the Axis - 11/6/2006 10:17:03 PM
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Status: online I think having random events and being able to turn them off or on manually would be interesting. The big ones are 1) Late/Early or no entry by the USA/USSR 2) Activiation of Spain 3) Surrender of the UK and its forces --come on now. if The germans were in London. the UK would have surrendered for sure.


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RE: Spain joins the Axis - 11/6/2006 10:48:55 PM
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WanderingHead
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer
I think having random events and being able to turn them off or on manually would be interesting. The big ones are 1) Late/Early or no entry by the USA/USSR 2) Activiation of Spain 3) Surrender of the UK and its forces --come on now. if The germans were in London. the UK would have surrendered for sure.



#1 can be done to some extent. Huge WR thresholds can be set in the data files that would never be reached.

#3 might be possible. There are Italian surrender rules, covering a single nation which is part of a player (Germany being the player). Copying the syntax for Italy might work for Britain (though I wouldn't be optimistic).

Actually, I do think that adding appropriate surrender rules for the Allies would be nice. It would be a way to play the war to actual VICTORY instead of a VP based pseudo-victory, and would be realistic. E.g. Russia could easily have collapsed into chaos and effectively surrendered. It is perfectly realistic and possible, but the game does not allow for it.

I was actually thinking that what would be best is if the Vichy surrender rules could be generic, so that one could have Russia surrender leading to everything W of the Urals going German, everything E of the Urals becoming Neutral.

Similarly, under appropriate situations India and Australia should surrender. Similar to Italy, a simple surrender (units disappear, but territories don't change hands) might be possible for individual nations.



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RE: Spain joins the Axis - 11/7/2006 1:08:43 AM
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wargameplayer
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Status: online Right once you are pushing into Tibet with german panzers it starts to seems silly. At the very least the units would probably disappear just like the french does. Saying that the only allies that would ever surrender are French--and not the uk, russia or elsewhere seems really unlikely.


quote:

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead

quote:

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer
I think having random events and being able to turn them off or on manually would be interesting. The big ones are 1) Late/Early or no entry by the USA/USSR 2) Activiation of Spain 3) Surrender of the UK and its forces --come on now. if The germans were in London. the UK would have surrendered for sure.



#1 can be done to some extent. Huge WR thresholds can be set in the data files that would never be reached.

#3 might be possible. There are Italian surrender rules, covering a single nation which is part of a player (Germany being the player). Copying the syntax for Italy might work for Britain (though I wouldn't be optimistic).

Actually, I do think that adding appropriate surrender rules for the Allies would be nice. It would be a way to play the war to actual VICTORY instead of a VP based pseudo-victory, and would be realistic. E.g. Russia could easily have collapsed into chaos and effectively surrendered. It is perfectly realistic and possible, but the game does not allow for it.

I was actually thinking that what would be best is if the Vichy surrender rules could be generic, so that one could have Russia surrender leading to everything W of the Urals going German, everything E of the Urals becoming Neutral.

Similarly, under appropriate situations India and Australia should surrender. Similar to Italy, a simple surrender (units disappear, but territories don't change hands) might be possible for individual nations.





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RE: Spain joins the Axis - 11/7/2006 1:26:45 AM
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Status: offline Italy's troops need to be accounted for and if not careful can lead to doom for Germany (having Italian militia on guard at a crucial territory when Italian surrender is possible), the commonwealth would certainly need to be careful if it suffered this logistical reality.

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RE: Spain joins the Axis - 11/7/2006 10:02:45 AM
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Timmeh
Italy's troops need to be accounted for and if not careful can lead to doom for Germany (having Italian militia on guard at a crucial territory when Italian surrender is possible), the commonwealth would certainly need to be careful if it suffered this logistical reality.



Excellent point. And while the game does distinguish Italian and French units, it does not visually distinguish Commonwealth units.

But I know that it does in the background, so you, the player, would be left with no way of knowing which units would disappear. Not good.
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RE: Spain joins the Axis

Post by WanderingHead »

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer
You forget France had colonies too and they surrender when eastern or western france is taken. For england, I think you could make the argument that england requires more strategic territories to fall in order to get surrender terms. i.e. London, Suez, Delhi cause automatic surrender. Or at least have an option for that surrender to occur.

Actually, I do not forget. I just don't really see the connection.

In 1939, Canada, Australia, New Zealand were NOT colonies. They were nations, recognizing the king of England as titular head of state but with their own independent legislative bodies.

I don't know what flexibility the game provides in this area, probably not much. Obviously, in designing the rule one would have to go through the British and Commonwealth regions carefully and maybe shuffle things around to decide how the surrender plays out.
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RE: Spain joins the Axis

Post by wargameplayer »

If you think the British empire was not colonial in nature than I'd love to know why they pretty much lost most of it after the war anyway to independence movements or rebellion. India, Africa, Asia and colonies elsewhere struggled for independence in the post war period and the struggle always ended the same way.

You could use Australia and the glorious Dominion of Canada as examples of counties that could carry the battle on but if a vichy like government signed a peace agreement just like France did in the game..I'd be hard pressed to see New Zealand cranking out panzer divisions to take back the Suez canal. If the UK was at peace with Germany -- Canada and Australia were pretty much non factors from a population, industrial and military standpoint. Even Canada had only 10 million people in 1940.

What would be the point of them continuing to fight if the US was not in the war and the KIng and the UK were at peace?

Russia is the same exact thing. If most of the USSR to the urals and a few of the asian territories are conquered then a peace agreement is the likely outcome. And yes I know they had mongolia and I'm sure htey were glorious fighters.

This suggestion just says there should be a event chance for new things such as a peace agreement if certain terrories are taken. Running through to Vladivostok every game with no chance of peace is a waste of game time.
ORIGINAL: WanderingHead
ORIGINAL: wargameplayer
You forget France had colonies too and they surrender when eastern or western france is taken. For england, I think you could make the argument that england requires more strategic territories to fall in order to get surrender terms. i.e. London, Suez, Delhi cause automatic surrender. Or at least have an option for that surrender to occur.

Actually, I do not forget. I just don't really see the connection.

In 1939, Canada, Australia, New Zealand were NOT colonies. They were nations, recognizing the king of England as titular head of state but with their own independent legislative bodies.

I don't know what flexibility the game provides in this area, probably not much. Obviously, in designing the rule one would have to go through the British and Commonwealth regions carefully and maybe shuffle things around to decide how the surrender plays out.
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RE: Spain joins the Axis

Post by WanderingHead »

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer
If you think the British empire was not colonial in nature than I'd love to know why they pretty much lost most of it after the war anyway to independence movements or rebellion. India, Africa, Asia and colonies elsewhere struggled for independence in the post war period and the struggle always ended the same way.

This is a strange conversation.

At every turn, because I do not include every detail of the political structure of the entire British Empire and Commonwealth, plus the French colonial empire, I am accused of forgetting it or misunderstanding it, but I don't think that any of the things I've actually said were disputed.

What I said in my prior post was that Canada, Australia and New Zealand were not colonies; no statement about the rest of the Empire.
ORIGINAL: wargameplayer
This suggestion just says there should be a event chance for new things such as a peace agreement if certain terrories are taken. Running through to Vladivostok every game with no chance of peace is a waste of game time.

Huh? I don't see how you can get to Vladivostok (as Germans, I assume) without winning by AV. If you have AV turned off, then you should consider that AV is supposed to model exactly what you are talking about: the Allied effort is so broken that they sue for peace and/or their governments collapse.

In the end, I think we may be in violent agreement. I do believe that it might be possible to make the game more interesting with appropriate WA (nation specific) and USSR surrender rules, though I doubt it will be possible to implement them (2by3 won't support them, and the data files are somewhat limited in controlling the political arena).
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RE: Spain joins the Axis

Post by sveint »

Running through to Vladivostok every game with no chance of peace is a waste of game time.
&nbsp;
&nbsp;You need a better Russian opponent. [;)]
&nbsp;
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RE: Spain joins the Axis

Post by wargameplayer »

Well great. Next time when someone makes a suggestion you agree with --then agree with it.

Most complicated WWII games of the period have variable victory conditions for England and Russia if certain strategic territories are conquered. I think in this thread an others I've said England should have a chance of surrender if England + some portion of Suez, Delhi, and 1-2 others. It's a fun game play addition that probably isn't as hard to add as other changed and it's realistic.

So next time you violently agree word it better instead of debating on what the word colonial means and who had a parliament or not.
ORIGINAL: WanderingHead
ORIGINAL: wargameplayer
If you think the British empire was not colonial in nature than I'd love to know why they pretty much lost most of it after the war anyway to independence movements or rebellion. India, Africa, Asia and colonies elsewhere struggled for independence in the post war period and the struggle always ended the same way.

This is a strange conversation.

At every turn, because I do not include every detail of the political structure of the entire British Empire and Commonwealth, plus the French colonial empire, I am accused of forgetting it or misunderstanding it, but I don't think that any of the things I've actually said were disputed.

What I said in my prior post was that Canada, Australia and New Zealand were not colonies; no statement about the rest of the Empire.
ORIGINAL: wargameplayer
This suggestion just says there should be a event chance for new things such as a peace agreement if certain terrories are taken. Running through to Vladivostok every game with no chance of peace is a waste of game time.

Huh? I don't see how you can get to Vladivostok (as Germans, I assume) without winning by AV. If you have AV turned off, then you should consider that AV is supposed to model exactly what you are talking about: the Allied effort is so broken that they sue for peace and/or their governments collapse.

In the end, I think we may be in violent agreement. I do believe that it might be possible to make the game more interesting with appropriate WA (nation specific) and USSR surrender rules, though I doubt it will be possible to implement them (2by3 won't support them, and the data files are somewhat limited in controlling the political arena).
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RE: Spain joins the Axis

Post by WanderingHead »

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer
Well great. Next time when someone makes a suggestion you agree with --then agree with it.

I DID agree with it, if I understand what you want me to agree with, in post #8.
ORIGINAL: WanderingHead
Actually, I do think that adding appropriate surrender rules for the Allies would be nice. It would be a way to play the war to actual VICTORY instead of a VP based pseudo-victory, and would be realistic. E.g. Russia could easily have collapsed into chaos and effectively surrendered. It is perfectly realistic and possible, but the game does not allow for it.

If you mod the files and get some interesting Allied surrender rules to work, let us know.
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