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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land

 
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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 3/16/2013 11:16:33 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Could game grognards please check what I have said is correct re the Commonwealth control?

[2801 Polish Guards Armoured Army]
.P This counter, available from 1943, represents the Polish armies-in-exile that
fought for the Allies following the defeat of Poland.
.P Polish troops fought with both the Western Allies and the Soviet Union during
World War II, although this counter is available to the United Kingdom only in
World In Flames (Poland is a minor country controlled by the Commonwealth).
.P After the fall of Poland, a number of Poles were able to escape to France.
Plans were put in place to create two Polish corps that would be equipped by the
French and be placed under their command. These plans were incomplete by the time
the Germans invaded France in May 1940. However Polish units that were ready
fought in the French Campaign and also the equally ill-fated Norwegian Campaign,
where they assisted the capture of the port of Narvik.
.P Following the defeat of France, around 20,000 Poles escaped to the United
Kingdom where they were incorporated within the British Army command structure in
September 1940 as the Polish 1st Corps.
.P A second Polish Corps was created in the Middle East in 1943, mostly from Poles that had been
placed in labour camps in the Soviet Union, but who were later released following
the German invasion of Russia in June 1941. One of the core components of the 2nd
Corps was the 3rd Carpathian Rifle Division. This division was built up around
the Polish Independent Carpathian Rifle Brigade, a unit that had been formed
in 1940 in French controlled Syria as part of the Polish Army in France. The
Carpathian Brigade gave sterling service with the British Army in North Africa -
including the siege of Tobruk.
.P Polish units fought alongside their British and Commonwealth allies in all the
major western theatres - North Africa and Italy (2nd Corps) and France (1st
Corps). For the campaign in northwest Europe, the 1st Armoured Division fought as
part of the 2nd Canadian Army, while the 1st Independent Parachute Brigade was
part of the First Allied Airborne Army, and took part in the Arnhem operation.
.P The major units of each of the corps was as follows:
.B 1st Corps - commanded by Lt-General Mieczyslaw Boruta-Spiechowicz (1943 until
1945 and thereafter by Lt-General Stanislaw Maczek)
.B 1st Armoured Division
.B 1st Independent Parchute Brigade
.B 16th Independent Armoured Brigade.
.P
.B 2nd Corps - commanded by Lt-General Wladyslaw Anders
.B 2nd Armoured Brigade
.B 3rd Carpathian Infantry Division
.B 5th Kresowa Infantry Division

? Where does the Guards appelation come from?
I am unsure of the 16th Armoured Bde, it may have been formed as a training unit or been just a cadre, there was also a 2nd Polish "Grenadier" Division formed but disbanded around DDay. (Nafziger quotes a 1st Polish Grenadier Armoured Division as the Orkney Garrison in June 44!)
For 3rd & 5th Divs, it it worth a comment that they were raised with only 2 Bdes each but formed a 3rd Bde from captured POW? and that they were the captors of Monte Cassino.
warspite1

JeffK I do not know where the Guards appelation came from I'm afraid, but until Armies In Flames makes an appearance , the unit designations will always be a tad ahistorical.

Yes, I too could find nothing to confirm what the 16th Armoured Brigade was and where it fitted into the great scheme of things but on balance I decided to keep in - can remove if people disagree. The 2nd Polish I removed and I am comfortable - in the absence of other info - that that is the right treatment - I have said these were the major units - perhaps most important would be a better term.

I purposely haven't gone into division size (i.e. TO&E) as to do so for one division means research on all others. However, mention of Monte Cassino is a sensible addition (as I mentioned Narvik, Arnhem and Tobruk). I will amend accordingly.

Extraneous - it would be helpful to let me know what you disagree with here. There is nothing in the links that you provide (as far as I can see) to make me change what I have written - but as always am happy to look at suggestions if I 've got something wrong.

My initial draft had the circa 80,000 figure for the Polish Army in France - seems to have gotten removed I will put that back in too.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/16/2013 11:20:46 PM >


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Post #: 2281
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 3/17/2013 2:53:35 AM   
Extraneous

 

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Exactly my point JeffK.

Also note that the 2nd Polish Corps fought for the USSR.

1st Polish Independent Parachute Brigade was attached to 1st British Airborne Division.



< Message edited by Extraneous -- 3/17/2013 2:59:29 AM >


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(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 2282
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 3/17/2013 7:42:10 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Exactly my point JeffK.

Also note that the 2nd Polish Corps fought for the USSR.

1st Polish Independent Parachute Brigade was attached to 1st British Airborne Division.

warspite1

Can you confirm your sources please re the Polish 2nd Corps? From what I can make out - and confirmed by the links you provided - the 2nd contained the units that fought in Italy.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2283
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 3/17/2013 10:28:17 AM   
warspite1


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Could someone who knows the rules please confirm whether or not only the Commonwealth can operate Polish Army units in Exile please? From memory I believe that is the case, but want to check.

Thank-you.

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Post #: 2284
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 3/17/2013 10:37:28 AM   
Orm


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From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Could someone who knows the rules please confirm whether or not only the Commonwealth can operate Polish Army units in Exile please? From memory I believe that is the case, but want to check.

Thank-you.

I can confirm that CW is the only Major Power that can control Polish units in Exile.

The only way any other MP can control Polish units is if it liberate Poland.

< Message edited by Orm -- 3/17/2013 10:38:21 AM >


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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2285
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 3/17/2013 10:46:06 AM   
warspite1


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Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Could someone who knows the rules please confirm whether or not only the Commonwealth can operate Polish Army units in Exile please? From memory I believe that is the case, but want to check.

Thank-you.

I can confirm that CW is the only Major Power that can control Polish units in Exile.

The only way any other MP can control Polish units is if it liberate Poland.
warspite1

Cheers Ormster

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(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 2286
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 3/17/2013 11:49:36 AM   
warspite1


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Okay final version for the Polish Guards Armoured Army

.P This counter, available from 1943, represents the Polish armies-in-exile that
fought for the Western Allies following the defeat of Poland.
.P In reality, Polish troops fought with both the Western Allies and the Soviet
Union during World War II. However, this counter is available only to the
Commonwealth player in World In Flames (Poland is a minor country controlled by
the Commonwealth) and so an overview of Polish units that fought under British
Army command is provided here.
.P After the fall of Poland, just over 80,000 Poles - escapees and Polish émigrés
- volunteered to continue the fight against the Germans. Plans were begun to
create two Polish corps that would be equipped by the French and be placed under
their command. These plans were incomplete by the time the Germans invaded France
in May 1940.
.P However some Polish units were ready by the time fighting erupted in the West
in April 1940, and these units fought in both the French Campaign and the equally
ill-fated Norwegian Campaign. During the latter, the Independent Podhale Rifle
Brigade were instrumental in the capture of the port of Narvik just prior to the
Allied withdrawal.
.P Following the defeat of France, around 20,000 Poles escaped to the United
Kingdom. In July 1940, these troops formed the nucleus of what became the Polish
1st Corps, which was incorporated within the British Army command structure.
.P A second Polish corps was created in the Middle East at the end of 1942,
mostly from Poles that had been released from labour camps in the Soviet Union
after the Germans attacked Russia in June 1941. One of the core components of this 2nd
Corps was the 3rd Carpathian Rifle Division. This division was built up around
the Polish Independent Carpathian Rifle Brigade, a unit that had been formed in
1940 in French controlled Syria as part of the Polish Army in France. The
Carpathian Brigade gave sterling service with the British Army in North Africa
and took part in the defence of the port of Tobruk.
.P Polish units fought alongside their British and Commonwealth allies in all the
major western theatres - North Africa and Italy (2nd Corps) and France (1st
Corps). For the campaign in northwest Europe, the 1st Armoured Division fought as
part of the 2nd Canadian Army, while the 1st Independent Parachute Brigade was
attached to the British 1st Airborne Division for the Arnhem operation. The Poles
reputation for toughness had already been reinforced during the bloody battle for
Monte Cassino in Italy. The two Infantry Divisions from the Polish 2nd Corps were
heavily involved in the climax of the five month campaign, and it was Polish
troops that eventually took Monte Cassino, paving the way open to Rome.
.P The exact make up of the two Polish corps has been difficult to identify as
it appears that some units were cadre strength only and / or never saw action.
The key components of the two corps however were:
.B 1st Corps - commanded by Lt-General Mieczyslaw Boruta-Spiechowicz (1943 until
1945 and thereafter by Lt-General Stanislaw Maczek)
.B 1st Armoured Division
.B 1st Independent Parchute Brigade
.P
.B 2nd Corps - commanded by Lt-General Wladyslaw Anders
.B 2nd Armoured Brigade
.B 3rd Carpathian Infantry Division
.B 5th Kresowa Infantry Division

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/17/2013 11:56:24 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2287
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 3/17/2013 3:38:04 PM   
Extraneous

 

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Sorry my error due to:

"Shortly after Germany's attack on the Soviet Union, Stalin ordered the release of Wladyslaw Anders from prison, with the intention of forming a Polish army on Soviet soil. By August 4, 1941"



But more good information on the Poles can be found at:

Great Polish Generals of WW2


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(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 2288
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 3/18/2013 10:18:41 AM   
Jimm


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From: York, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Is there any historical basis to these units?

I find no reference to a NIZZA/MIZZA Cavalry Corps, but the name given to 1st Cavalry Rgt/ 2nd Cavalry Division is NIZZA.

Same for Filiberto corps, no historical reference but there is a 2e Emanuele Filiberto Testa di Ferro Celere (Cavalry) Division

(Italian Army Order of Battle edited by W Victor Madeja)

As I read further I see Jimm also questioned the naming of these Corps.
IMVHO, if you want to be historical keep to the facts, dont use fantasy naming of units.


Hi Jeff

There are an awful lot of hypotheticals within the Italian unit list, often based on smaller, historical formations. Mainly I think this is because for the Italian army corps organisation was an administrative function based on area of operation. There is not a lot of flavour there- the interesting stuff is at division level or lower, and hence when Harry produced the original cardboard game he picked on these more interesting names.

Actually I don't think we need to get too hung up on whether units are hypothetical - whether expansions of real, smaller units or total fictional- so long as it is stated as such in the writeup. This game is nothing if not a tool for exploring fun WWII counterfactuals and "what ifs" after all.





(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 2289
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 3/24/2013 9:04:42 AM   
michaelbaldur


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From: denmark
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just read though the Italian fighter2 write ups..

and both the c205v and the re2005 is called the best fighter.

this is just a minor issue.



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I work hard, not smart.

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(in reply to Jimm)
Post #: 2290
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 3/26/2013 10:00:10 AM   
Jimm


Posts: 580
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: York, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


just read though the Italian fighter2 write ups..

and both the c205v and the re2005 is called the best fighter.

this is just a minor issue.



The same has also been written of the G55 Centauro. (although not in the writeups)
The trouble is none of these models was produced in significant numbers so it is difficult to have an definitive view based on actual historical comparison.

The inclusion of the word "possibly" would help resolve in both cases.


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Post #: 2291
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 3/26/2013 11:43:22 AM   
Ranger5355

 

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Years ago I used to get a magazine called 'Air Enthusiast'. It had a monthly article called 'View from the cockpit' by Capt Eric Brown. He had a high opinion of the c205 and the re2005 if I remember correctly. and viewed the c205 as superior to the BF109G. But as Jimm points out, not enough combat results and a lack of first rate pilots makes it a challenge for the game designers to estimate what was possible.

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Post #: 2292
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 4/9/2013 3:06:05 PM   
Extraneous

 

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I was bored again so I did some more research just for the fun of it.

Bing translator was used to translate the entire url when necessary

2nd World War-Italian Army (2ª GUERRA MONDIALE - REGIO ESERCITO)

The Royal Army to 10 June 1940 (IL REGIO ESERCITO AL 10 GIUGNO 1940)

COLLECTION OF ITALIAN MILITARY RECORDS, 1935-1943

Field and Territorial Commands
The Italian Army was divided into field units (unita di Campagna) devoted primarily to military operations under the direct control of the Chief of the Army Staff and his staff at field headquarters. All other matters were entrusted to the Under Secretary of War (usually a high-ranking army officer) and the Assistant Chief of Staff for Territorial Defense who controlled the territorial units (enti territoriali).

Regional Organization
Army corps (Corpo d'Armata) areas were responsible in peacetime for all troops, services, headquarters, and other military establishments within the corps area. They were numbered concurrently with the corps whose headquarters and components they contained in peacetime.

At the outbreak of the war there were 16 Army corps areas: I Corps (Turin), II Corps (Alessandria), III Corps (Milan), IV Corps (Bolzano), V Corps (Trieste), VI Corps (Bologna), VII Corps (Florence), VIII Corps (Rome), IX Corps (Bari), X Corps (Naples), XI Corps (Udine), XII Corps (Palermo), XIII Corps (Cagliari), XIV Corps (Treviso), XV Corps (Genoa), and XVI Corps (Messina).

There were four additional corps headquarters that did not have a corresponding territorial defense command. These were to control the training and organization of specialized units: Armored Corps (at Mantua), Alpine Corps (at Trento), Cavalry (Celere) Corps (at Padua), and Semi-motorized Corps (at Cremona).

After the outbreak of World War II a number of additional corps were added among the following for which there are records:
XVIII, headquartered in Split, Yugoslavia;
XIX, headquartered in Santa Maria Capua Vetere;
XX and XXI, which operated in Tripolitania until forced back into Tunisia and destroyed in May 1943;
XXIII, headquartered in Trieste,
XXIV, headquartered in Udine;
XXX, headquartered in Sousse, Tunisia, and destroyed in Tunisia in May 1943; and
XXXV, headquartered in Bolzano.

At the beginning of the war on June 10, 1940 the headquarters of the corps were stationed within definite areas which were also designated Territorial Defense Commands (Comando di Difesa Territoriale) that were divided into 28 military zones commanded by General Ubaldo Soddu.

Comando Difesa Territoriale di Torino (Torino)
1^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Torino)
4^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Novara)

Comando Difesa Territoriale di Alessandria (Alessandria)
2^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Alessandria)

Comando Difesa Territoriale di Genova (Genova)
14^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Genova)

Comando Difesa Territoriale di Milano (Milano)
3^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Milano)

Comando Difesa Territoriale di Verona (Verona)
5^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Verona)
7^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Trento)
XIII Settore di Copertura (Merano)
XIV Settore di Copertura (Bressanone)
XV Settore di Copertura (Brunico)

Comando Difesa Territoriale di Treviso (Treviso)
28^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Padova)
XVII Settore di Copertura (Pontebba)

Comando Difesa Territoriale di Udine (Udine)
12^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Udine)

Comando Difesa Territoriale di Trieste (Trieste)
10^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Trieste)
11^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Pola)

Comando Difesa Territoriale di Bologna (Bologna)
15^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Piacenza)
8^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Bologna)
9^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Ravenna)

Comando Difesa Territoriale di Firenze (Firenze)
13^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Firenze)
17^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Livorno)

Comando Difesa Territoriale di (Roma)
16^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Roma)

Comando Difesa Territoriale di Bari (Bari)
24^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Ancona)
18^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Perugia)
23^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Chieti)
22^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Bari)

Comando Difesa Territoriale di Napoli (Napoli)
19^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Napoli)
20^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Salerno)

Comando Difesa Territoriale di Palermo (Palermo)
21^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Catanzaro)
25^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Palermo)
26^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Messina)

Comando Difesa Territoriale di Cagliari (Cagliari)
27^ Zona Militare Territoriale (Cagliari)

Comando Difesa Territoriale di Tirana, Albania

These were in turn subdivided into 106 military districts (Distretti Militari), plus one at Rhodes, four in Libya, six in Italian East Africa, and detached sections at Livorno, Zara, and Tolmezzo.


Territorial Defense Army (General Ubaldo Soddu, Rome) ((ARMATA per la DIFESA TERRITORIALE (Gen. Ubaldo Soddu, Roma))


The 16th Military Territorial Area (16^ Zona Militare Territoriale) (Rome) was assigned with the defense of Rome and consisted of.
Territorial Legion Carabinieri Reali "Roma" (Rome)
Territorial Legion Carabinieri Reali "Lazio" (Rome)
Legion Students Carabinieri Reali (Rome)
Military School (Rome)
Graduate Commissary school (Rome)
Military Schools Central Command (Civitavecchia)
Central School of infantry (Civitavecchia)
Rapid Troop middle school (Civitavecchia)
Central School of artillery (Civitavecchia)
Central School of engineers (Civitavecchia)
Artillery shooting school (Nettuno)
Forestry Militia School (Cittaducale)
Depot 21st Infantry Division "Grenadiers of Sardinia" (Rome)
Depot 52nd Infantry Division "Torino" (Civitavecchia)
9th Railway Militia Legion (Rome)
3rd Group Road Militia Departments (Rome)
CDXCVIII Black Shirts Mobile Territorial Cohort (Grosseto)
DXV Cohort Territorial Mobile Black Shirts (Viterbo)
DXVII Territorial Mobile Black Shirts Cohort (Civitavecchia)
DXVIII Territorial Mobile Black Shirts Cohort (Velletri)
Black Shirts Territorial Cohort DXIX (Frosinone)
DXX Cohort Territorial Mobile Black Shirts (Rome)
DXXI Territorial Mobile black shirts Cohort (Littoria, now Latina)
CCCXII Black Shirts Territorial Cohort (Rome)
CCCXIV Black Shirts Territorial Cohort (Tivoli)
CCCXVI Black Shirts Territorial Cohort (Rieti)
3rd Autonomous Militia Cohort forestry (Rome)
Autonomous Road Militia Department (Rome)
16th Militia Anti-aircraft Legion (2 batteries, Terni)
18th Militia Anti-aircraft Legion (24 batteries, Rome)


On July 25, 1943 the 3rd Reserve Army was re-designated the Command for the defense of Rome.

It consisted of:

Motorized Army corps (Corpo d'Armata Motocorazzato)
135th Armored Division "Ariete II" (General Raffaele Cadorna, Campagnano)
136th Armored Division "Centauro II" (Formerly 136th Armored Division M a blackshirts division General Carlo Bald of Bergolo, Tivoli)
10th Motorized Division "Piave" (Gen. Ugo Tabellini, Rome)
21st Infantry Division "Grenadiers of Sardinia" (General Gioacchino Solinas, Rome)
18th Armored Infantry Regiment (September 9, 1943 as part of the Centauro II Division)
1st Motorized Artillery Regiment
1st Anti-aircraft group
11th Engineer Group


Rome Army Corps (General Alberto Barber, Rome) (Corpo d'Armata di Roma)
12th Division Infantry "Sassari" (General Francesco Baskets, Rome)
16th Military Zone (Rome)
4nd Tank crew Member Infantry Regiment
Real legion military Policemen "Rome"
Real legion military Policemen "Lazio"
Legion revenue Officer "Rome"
Column Police Africa Italian "Cheren" motorized

XVII Army corps (General Giovanni Zanghieri, Velletri) (XVII Corpo d'Armata)
220th Coastal Division (General Oreste Sant'Andrea, Santa Severa) (220^ Divisione Costiera)
XXXIV Coastal Brigade (in constitution, General Pasquale Ventrone, Ostia) (XXXIV Brigata Costiera)
221st Coastal Division (General Edoardo Minaja, Pontinia) (221^ Divisione Costiera)
103rd Motorized Infantry Division "Piacenza" (General Carlo Rossi, Velletri) (103^ Divisione Fanteria autotrasportabile "Piacenza")
7th Infantry Division "Lupi di Toscana" (arriving from Provence, General Ernesto Cappa, Ladispoli) (7^ Divisione Fanteria)
13th Mountain Infantry Division "Re" (traveling from Slovenia, General Ottaviano Traniello, Monterotondo) (13^ Divisione Fanteria da montagna "Re")
23rd Artillery Group (23° Raggruppamento Artiglieria di Corpo d'Armata)
10th Engineer Group (10° Raggruppamento Genio di Corpo d'Armata)

Commander-in-Chief South (Field Marshal Albert Kesselring, Frascati) non-divisional elements in Rome
XI Fliegerkorps (General Kurt Student)
2nd Fallschirmjäger Division (General Barenthin)
3rd Panzer Grenadier Division (General Fritz Graeser, Viterbo)




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(in reply to Ranger5355)
Post #: 2293
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 5/10/2013 1:53:04 AM   
Extraneous

 

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deleted

< Message edited by Extraneous -- 5/10/2013 2:01:35 AM >


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(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 2294
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/28/2013 7:36:38 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Here are some of the writeups that Adam sent me today.




Attachment (1)

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(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2295
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/29/2013 12:46:35 PM   
Extraneous

 

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Just a footnote: The Japanese never built MECH units they built armored and infantry divisions. The availability dates for the MECH coincide with the actual availability dates for the armored divisions or Sensha Sidan. That is why the MECH units are described as Armored units.

Just in case you wondered.



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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 2296
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/29/2013 6:11:37 PM   
warspite1


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From: England
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The last of the French Capital ships has now been done:

[4895 Strasbourg - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 112,500 shp
.B Top Speed: 29.5 knots
.B Main armament: 8 x 13-inch (330mm), 16 x 5.1-inch (130mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 35,500 tons
.B Thickest armour: 9.75-inch (belt)
.P The Dunkerques were a class of two, fast, capital ships that were built
for the Marine Nationale (MN) between 1932 and 1938. They are generally classed
as fast battleships, although their design had much in common with the
battlecruiser concept, and indeed are considered as such by some.
.P Although the Italian Navy was the main focus of French naval concern between
the wars, the MN could not afford to ignore the re-arming of the Kriegsmarine,
and in particular, the three pocket-battleships of the Deutschland-class. The
first of this latter class had entered service in 1933, and it was in response to
the Deutschlands that the Dunkerques were built.
.P The German ships were built as commerce raiders that were "faster than any
more powerful ship, and more powerful than any faster ship". However, the
Dunkerques were designed to be faster, more powerful and better armoured than the
German ships, and they achieved all three targets.
.P Although the comparison with the Deutschlands was favourable, the Dunkerques
were, in all but speed, undoubtedly at a disadvantage when compared to the
contemporary battleship classes, and their speed would be beaten by the newer
battleships laid down during the late thirties.
.P The Dunkerques main armament was fitted in two quadruple turrets, both fitted
forward in a bid to save weight. The guns were sited slightly further apart than
was traditionally the case, in order to try and avoid one lucky hit disabling
both turrets. Their secondary armament was provided by sixteen 5.1-inch guns
fitted in three quadruple and two twin turrets. Close-range anti-aircraft (AA)
weaponry came in the form of eight 37mm and thirty-two 13.2mm guns. A catapult
was fitted aft, and these ships could operate up to two aircraft.
.P Armour protection was light; certainly if these ships are to be considered
battleships. Their armour belt, designed to withstand the 11-inch shells of the
Deutschlands, ranged from 9.75-inches at it thickest, reducing to 5.75-inches,
while horizontal armour was 5-inches at its thickest.
.P Their designed speed of 29.5 knots was comfortable exceeded in trials and they
remained amongst the fastest capital ships in the world at the outbreak of World
War II.
.P The two ships of the class were named after French cities, Dunkerque being a
port in northern France, and Strasbourg a city in eastern France. The choice of
these names is interesting and is likely to have been driven by anti-German
sentiment between the wars; Dunkerque was where the German offensive in 1914
stalled, and the province of Alsace (of which Strasbourg is the capital) was
handed back to France at the end of World War I, having been taken by the Germans
after the war of 1870.
.P Strasbourg was commissioned into the MN in September 1938. At the start of the
Second World War, she was based at the port of Brest, part of the 1st Division de
ligne along with her sister Dunkerque.
.P Shortly after the outbreak of war in September 1939, the British and French
put into operation their plan for the defence of the vital trade routes around
the globe. The MN would be responsible for the sea area between the Gulf of
Guinea, off West Africa, and the English Channel. In order to counter the threat
from German surface raiders, the MN formed the Force de Raid (for the make-up of
this force please see Dunkerque) under the command of amiral Marcel-Bruno
Gensoul.
.P At the beginning of October, the British Royal Navy and the MN formed a number
of hunting groups in order to try and track down German surface raiders known to
be at large in the North and South Atlantic. Gensoul's fleet was split up and
Strasbourg was sent to Dakar as part of the newly formed Force X along with the
cruisers Algérie and Dupleix; the 10th Division of Contre-torpilleurs and the
British aircraft carrier HMS Hermes.
.P Strasbourg remained with Force X until the end of November, when she was
ordered back to France. From then until early 1940, Strasbourg had something of a
quiet life, but this was not to last for long. In the spring, the Allies were
faced with the potential threat of Italy joining the Axis and the actual German
invasion of Norway. In April, the Force de Raid was ordered to the Mediterranean,
then quickly ordered back to France to assist operations off Norway, but then
sent back to the Mediterranean again.
.P The threat from Italy duly materialised on the 10th June 1940 when Benito
Mussolini decided to declare war on the British and French. By this time the
French fleet, based at Mers-el-Kebir, Algeria, was brought up to full strength
and contained the following ships:
.P 1st Squadron - 1st Division de ligne: Dunkerque and Strasbourg; 3rd Division
de croiseurs (DC): Marseillaise, Jean de Vienne and La Galissonnière; 4th DC:
Georgues Leygues, Montcalm and Gloire; 6th Division de contre-torpilleurs (DCT):
Mogador and Volta; 8th DCT: L'Indomptable and Le Malin; 10th DCT: Le Fantasque,
L'Audacieux and Le Terrible.
.P 2nd Squadron - 2nd Division de ligne, containing the old battleships Bretagne
and Provence and the 4th DCT consisting of Tigre, Panthère and Lynx.
.P This French fleet made one sortie a couple of days later when an erroneous
report was received that German naval units were trying to force the Straits of
Gibraltar with a view to meeting up with their Italian allies.
.P Strasbourg returned to port with the rest of the fleet and awaited her next
operational order. Sadly, in the course of the next few weeks the Allied armies
in Belgium and northeast France were effectively destroyed by the German army and
the collapse and surrender of France followed soon after.
.P An armistice was concluded with the Germans and France and her empire were
split into two; a German-occupied zone that covered northern and western France,
and a nominally independent country, known as Vichy France, that administered
itself and its large overseas empire. This arrangement caused consternation in
the United Kingdom as it was feared that the French Fleet was vulnerable to
seizure by the Germans.
.P At the start of July the British therefore carried out their plan to seize the
French Fleet in order to ensure that its ships did not fall into German hands
(see Bretagne, Paris and Submarine Counter 4937). At Mers-El-Kebir a numbers of
options were delivered to amiral Gensoul. All options were ultimately rejected,
and a Royal Navy task force, that was waiting outside the port, was ordered to
open fire. Strasbourg was able to escape the carnage that followed with fairly
minor damage and she was able to reach open water, hidden by the fire and smoke
of battle. By a seeming miracle she also survived the minefield laid by the
British outside the port.
.P Strasbourg, together with four contre-torpilleurs and three torpedo boats,
survived a further attack by Royal Navy Swordfish aircraft and were able to make
it safely to Toulon.
.P Back in France, Strasbourg was quickly repaired and became the flagship of
amiral Gensoul who, having also survived the attack on Mers-El-Kebir, was flown
back to France. With the Vichy French no longer having control of their Atlantic
and Channel coasts, on the 25th September 1940 the main French fleet was named
the Forces de Haute Mer (FHM) or the High Seas Force, and placed under the
control of amiral Jean de Laborde (see Algérie for the composition of this
force).
.P From then until November 1942, when she met her end, Strasbourg led an
unremarkable existence, consisting of training sorties, refits and the odd
upgrade to her equipment.
.P Following the armistice with Germany, the French had always maintained that
the ships of the French navy would not be allowed to fall into the hands of the
Germans. That resolve was tested in the early hours of the 27th November 1942. As
a result of the Allied landings in North Africa at the beginning of November, the
Germans decided to occupy Vichy France. A subsidiary operation was also planned
in order to seize the French fleet in Toulon - Operation Lila.
.P Troops from the German 7th Panzer Division and supporting units, that had been
stationed outside the port, were given the order to seize as many vessels as
possible, but the French made good on their promise. At that time, the French
naval units in Toulon consisted of both ships of the FHM and those ships that
were manned by reduced crews, but all ships were rigged for scuttling in case the
Germans ever broke their word and tried to forcibly take control of the fleet.
.P Amiral de Laborde broadcast the order to scuttle as soon as it became clear
what was happening. There was little actual fighting as, in almost all cases, the
Germans were unable to reach the French ships before they begun sinking or became
engulfed in flame.
.P None of the major warships scuttled - Dunkerque, Strasbourg, Provence,
Dupleix, Foch, Colbert, Marseillaise or Algérie - put to sea again. Two of the
cruisers - Jean de Vienne and La Galissonnière - were refloated by the Italians
with the intention of incorporating them into the Regia Marina, but both were
still at Toulon when Italy exited the war in September 1943.
.P General Charles de Gaulle, leader of the Free French forces, was upset that
the ships had not sailed for North Africa to continue the fight against the Axis,
but at least they had not been allowed to fall into enemy hands.
.P As for Strasbourg, she was sunk at her moorings, her internal machinery and
weaponry destroyed by explosive charges. She was raised in July 1943 but was
beyond recovery. She was sunk in August 1944 during an Allied air raid, raised
again, and her hulk scrapped in 1956.



< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/29/2013 7:04:55 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2297
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/29/2013 6:36:48 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 1655
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
Amiral Gensoul is introduced to the reader without his rank or his command ... is he in charge of the Dunkerque/Strasbourg 1st Line Division (?), or something else?

Use of the French is nice, but it gets a tad heavy at times for us lazy Americans who rarely bother to learn foreign languages. contre-torpilleurs = anti-torpedo? ships = destroyers ?

and there is one "amiral" rather than "Amiral"


but outstanding work as usual

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2298
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/29/2013 7:07:24 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 18041
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Amiral Gensoul is introduced to the reader without his rank or his command ... is he in charge of the Dunkerque/Strasbourg 1st Line Division (?), or something else?

Use of the French is nice, but it gets a tad heavy at times for us lazy Americans who rarely bother to learn foreign languages. contre-torpilleurs = anti-torpedo? ships = destroyers ?

and there is one "amiral" rather than "Amiral"


but outstanding work as usual
warspite1

Thanks brian brian - changes made. I have not changed the contre-torpilleur though because frankly I can't be assed to go through all the French write-ups at this stage


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 2299
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/29/2013 7:35:40 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
[4895 Strasbourg - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 112,500 shp
.B Top Speed: 29.5 knots
.B Main armament: 8 x 13-inch (330mm), 16 x 5.1-inch (130mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 35,500 tons
.B Thickest armour: 9.75-inch (belt)
.P The Dunkerques were a class of two, fast, capital ships that were built
for the Marine Nationale (MN) between 1932 and 1938. They are generally classed
as fast battleships, although their design had much in common with the
battlecruiser concept, and indeed are considered as such by some.
.P Although the Italian Navy was the main focus of French naval concern between
the wars, the MN could not afford to ignore the re-arming of the Kriegsmarine,
and in particular, the three pocket-battleships of the Deutschland-class. The
first of this latter class had entered service in 1933, and it was in response to
the Deutschlands that the Dunkerques were built.
.P The German ships were built as commerce raiders that were "faster than any
more powerful ship, and more powerful than any faster ship". However, the
Dunkerques were designed to be faster, more powerful and better armoured than the
German ships, and they achieved all three targets.
.P Although the comparison with the Deutschlands was favourable, the Dunkerques
were, in all but speed, undoubtedly at a disadvantage when compared to the
contemporary battleship classes, and their speed would be beaten by the newer
battleships laid down during the late thirties.
.P The Dunkerques main armament was fitted in two quadruple turrets, both fitted
forward in a bid to save weight. The guns were sited slightly further apart than
was traditionally the case, in order to try and avoid one lucky hit disabling
both turrets. Sixteen 5.1-inch guns fitted in three quadruple and two twin turrets
provided their secondary armament. Close-range anti-aircraft (AA) weaponry came in
the form of eight 37mm and thirty-two 13.2mm guns. A catapult was fitted aft, and
these ships could operate up to two aircraft.

.P Armour protection was light; certainly if these ships are to be considered
battleships. Their armour belt, designed to withstand the 11-inch shells of the
Deutschlands, ranged from 9.75-inches at it thickest, reducing to 5.75-inches,
while horizontal armour was 5-inches at its thickest.
.P Their designed speed of 29.5 knots was comfortable exceeded in trials and they
remained amongst the fastest capital ships in the world at the outbreak of World
War II.
.P The two ships of the class were named after French cities, Dunkerque being a
port in northern France, and Strasbourg a city in eastern France. The choice of
these names is interesting and is likely to have been driven by anti-German
sentiment between the wars; Dunkerque was where the German offensive in 1914
stalled, and the province of Alsace (of which Strasbourg is the capital) was
handed back to France at the end of World War I, having been taken by the Germans
after the war of 1870.
.P Strasbourg was commissioned into the MN in September 1938. At the start of the
Second World War, she was based at the port of Brest, part of the 1st Division de
ligne along with her sister Dunkerque.
.P Shortly after the outbreak of war in September 1939, the British and French
put into operation their plan for the defence of the vital trade routes around
the globe. The MN would be responsible for the sea area between the Gulf of
Guinea, off West Africa, and the English Channel. In order to counter the threat
from German surface raiders, the MN formed the Force de Raid (for the make-up of
this force please see Dunkerque) under the command of amiral Marcel-Bruno
Gensoul.
.P At the beginning of October, the British Royal Navy and the MN formed a number
of hunting groups in order to try and track down German surface raiders known to
be at large in the North and South Atlantic. Gensoul's fleet was split up and
Strasbourg was sent to Dakar as part of the newly formed Force X along with the
cruisers Algérie and Dupleix; the 10th Division of Contre-torpilleurs and the
British aircraft carrier HMS Hermes.
.P Strasbourg remained with Force X until the end of November, when she was
ordered back to France. From then until early 1940, Strasbourg had something of a
quiet life, but this was not to last for long. In the spring, the Allies were
faced with the potential threat of Italy joining the Axis and the actual German
invasion of Norway. In April, the Force de Raid was ordered to the Mediterranean,
then quickly ordered back to France to assist operations off Norway, but then
sent back to the Mediterranean again.
.P The threat from Italy duly materialised on the 10th June 1940 when Benito
Mussolini decided to declare war on the British and French. By this time the
French fleet, based at Mers-el-Kebir, Algeria, was brought up to full strength
and contained the following ships:
.P 1st Squadron - 1st Division de ligne: Dunkerque and Strasbourg; 3rd Division
de croiseurs (DC): Marseillaise, Jean de Vienne and La Galissonnière; 4th DC:
Georgues Leygues, Montcalm and Gloire; 6th Division de contre-torpilleurs (DCT):
Mogador and Volta; 8th DCT: L'Indomptable and Le Malin; 10th DCT: Le Fantasque,
L'Audacieux and Le Terrible.
.P 2nd Squadron - 2nd Division de ligne, containing the old battleships Bretagne
and Provence and the 4th DCT consisting of Tigre, Panthère and Lynx.
.P This French fleet made one sortie a couple of days later when an erroneous
report was received that German naval units were trying to force the Straits of
Gibraltar with a view to meeting up with their Italian allies.
.P Strasbourg returned to port with the rest of the fleet and awaited her next
operational order. Sadly, in the course of the next few weeks the German army
effectively destroyed the Allied armies in Belgium and northeast France the
collapse and surrender of France followed soon after.

.P An armistice was concluded with the Germans and France and her empire were
split into two; a German-occupied zone that covered northern and western France,
and a nominally independent country, known as Vichy France, that administered
itself and its large overseas empire. This arrangement caused consternation in
the United Kingdom, as it was feared that the French Fleet was vulnerable to
seizure by the Germans.
.P At the start of July the British therefore carried out their plan to seize the
French Fleet in order to ensure that its ships did not fall into German hands
(see Bretagne, Paris and Submarine Counter 4937). At Mers-El-Kebir a numbers of
options were delivered to amiral Gensoul. All options were ultimately rejected,
and a Royal Navy task force that was waiting outside the port, was ordered to
open fire. Strasbourg was able to escape the carnage that followed with fairly
minor damage and she was able to reach open water, hidden by the fire and smoke
of battle. By a seeming miracle she also survived the minefield laid by the
British outside the port.
.P Strasbourg, together with four contre-torpilleurs and three torpedo boats,
survived a further attack by Royal Navy Swordfish aircraft and were able to make
it safely to Toulon.
.P Back in France, Strasbourg was quickly repaired and became the flagship of
amiral Gensoul who, having also survived the attack on Mers-El-Kebir, was flown
back to France. With the Vichy French no longer having control of their Atlantic
and Channel coasts, on the 25th September 1940 the main French fleet was named
the Forces de Haute Mer (FHM) or the High Seas Force, and placed under the
control of amiral Jean de Laborde (see Algérie for the composition of this
force).
.P From then until November 1942, when she met her end, Strasbourg led an
unremarkable existence, consisting of training sorties, refits and the odd
upgrade to her equipment.
.P Following the armistice with Germany, the French had always maintained that
the ships of the French navy would not be allowed to fall into the hands of the
Germans. That resolve was tested in the early hours of the 27th November 1942. As
a result of the Allied landings in North Africa at the beginning of November, the
Germans decided to occupy Vichy France. A subsidiary operation was also planned
in order to seize the French fleet in Toulon - Operation Lila.
.P Troops from the German 7th Panzer Division and supporting units, that had been
stationed outside the port, were given the order to seize as many vessels as
possible, but the French made good on their promise. At that time, the French
naval units in Toulon consisted of both ships of the FHM and those ships that
were manned by reduced crews, but all ships were rigged for scuttling in case the
Germans ever broke their word and tried to forcibly take control of the fleet.
.P Amiral de Laborde broadcast the order to scuttle as soon as it became clear
what was happening. There was little actual fighting as, in almost all cases, the
Germans were unable to reach the French ships before they begun sinking or became
engulfed in flame.
.P None of the major warships scuttled - Dunkerque, Strasbourg, Provence,
Dupleix, Foch, Colbert, Marseillaise or Algérie - put to sea again. The Italians with the
intention of incorporating them into the Regia Marina refloated the Light cruisers -
Jean de Vienne and La Galissonnière. But both were still at Toulon when Italy exited
the war in September 1943.

.P General Charles de Gaulle, leader of the Free French forces, was upset that
the ships had not sailed for North Africa to continue the fight against the Axis,
but at least they had not been allowed to fall into enemy hands.
.P As for Strasbourg, she was sunk at her moorings, her internal machinery and
weaponry destroyed by explosive charges. She was raised in July 1943 but was
beyond recovery. She was sunk in August 1944 during an Allied air raid, raised
again, and her hulk scrapped in 1956.



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2300
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/29/2013 7:59:53 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 18275
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Amiral Gensoul is introduced to the reader without his rank or his command ... is he in charge of the Dunkerque/Strasbourg 1st Line Division (?), or something else?

Use of the French is nice, but it gets a tad heavy at times for us lazy Americans who rarely bother to learn foreign languages. contre-torpilleurs = anti-torpedo? ships = destroyers ?

and there is one "amiral" rather than "Amiral"


but outstanding work as usual

I'm reading a book on the Franco-Prussian war and the author (British) inserts both French and German text rather liberally throughout. My French is what I think of as "funny French" - whenever Frenchmen hear me speak it, they laugh. My German is less than 6 words. But I can persevere in reading this book. Using the native language of the communications between the commanders in the field adds flavor to the narrative and isn't totally opaque.

< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 6/29/2013 8:00:36 PM >


_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 2301
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/29/2013 9:43:09 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 1655
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
It is good to be exposed to foreign languages, I enjoy learning them in tiny portions. I guess what I would suggest is giving the reader a little helping hand once in a while (not combing through every entry, having some definitive system across them all, translating every word, etc.). Just a simple (destroyers) or other translation thrown in here and there could strengthen any piece using non-English words.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 2302
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/29/2013 10:20:51 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 18041
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
Thanks Extraneous - I have incorporated a few of these suggestions too.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2303
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/30/2013 12:33:55 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

It is good to be exposed to foreign languages, I enjoy learning them in tiny portions. I guess what I would suggest is giving the reader a little helping hand once in a while (not combing through every entry, having some definitive system across them all, translating every word, etc.). Just a simple (destroyers) or other translation thrown in here and there could strengthen any piece using non-English words.


Without going into detail:

Cuirassé = Battleship
Croiseur de bataille = Battlecruiser
Croiseur Lourd = Heavy Cruiser
Croiseur Léger = Light Cruiser
contre-torpilleurs = Large Destroyer
Torpilleur = Destroyer, Torpedo boat destroyer, or Torpedo boat




_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 2304
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/18/2013 3:23:15 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
Would it be possible to see the write ups for Timoshenko and Zhukov

I was just wondering about them from a historical aspect.

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University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2305
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/18/2013 3:39:30 PM   
Orm


Posts: 5947
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
Historical description of Zhukov.
quote:

Aged 52 in 1939, Marshal Georgi Konstantinovich Zhukov was born to impoverished parents and by the age
of ten was working twelve hours a day in a factory. He was conscripted in 1915 and within a year had been
selected for NCO (non-commissioned officer) training. After being wounded in battle and receiving decorations
for bravery, he joined the Communist Party and fought for the Red Army during the Revolution.

By 1923 he was the commander of a horse cavalry regiment and gained an enviable reputation for his
military skills. During the 1930s he experimented with tanks and in July 1939 he was appointed commander of
the First Soviet Mongolian Army Group and defeated the Japanese incursions into Mongolia at the battle of
Khalkin Gol. This encounter gave Zhukov valuable experience in combined arms warfare. The 40% casualties
suffered by the Russians were accepted by Zhukov as an unavoidable cost of making war.

Stalin summoned Zhukov to Moscow to prepare war games representing a German attack on Russia and
Zhukov, as the "Germans", won convincingly. Stalin promoted Zhukov to chief of general staff (CGS) and in
that role he tried to shape the Russian army to defeat the expected real-life invasion. When the Germans did
invade Russia on June 22nd 1941, Zhukov fell out of favor with Stalin for suggesting the abandonment of Kiev
(where over 600,000 Russian soldiers would eventually be captured) and in September was ordered north to
command the Leningrad front.

The threat to Moscow caused Stalin to recall him to defend that city and Zhukov's successful defense of
the capital bought him back into favor with the Russian dictator. Zhukov's December counter-offensive with 88
infantry divisions, 15 cavalry divisions and 1,500 tanks on a 200 mile front stabilized the line and forced Hitler
to consider other options. Promoted to deputy commander in chief under Stalin (the only person to ever hold
that position), he went to Stalingrad in August 1942 and masterminded the pincer movement that cut off
General von Paulus and the German Sixth Army.

Further successes followed in the 1943 battles for Kursk and the Western Ukraine and by January 1945
Zhukov was commanding the First Byelorussia Front in a successful maneuver to bypass Warsaw and force the
defending Germans to retreat from that city. Stalin's political maneuvering halted Zhukov's preparations for
taking Berlin since the Soviet dictator was trying to sabotage the Western Allies plans to drive on the German
capital by persuading them that Berlin was not an important military target. The maneuver worked, but at the
cost of allowing the Germans time to rebuild their defenses.

In March 1945 Stalin summoned Zhukov to Moscow and instructed him to take Berlin by the First of May
Labor Day holiday. Zhukov prepared well for the attack but insisted on traveling to Berlin by the most direct
route. The initial artillery and aerial bombardment failed since the Germans had anticipated the attack and had
evacuated their frontline fortifications. Zhukov's subsequent night attack supported by 140 searchlights bogged
down in the teeth of the resolute German defense and the Russians lost 700 tanks in four days. While Zhukov
was battering down the front door, his rival, General Koniev, was pushing around Berlin from the south and
Stalin deliberately set his generals in a race for the prestige of taking the city.

The Soviet flag was raised over the German Reichstag at 10.50pm on the night of 30 April, just before the
deadline set by Stalin. The Berlin garrison surrendered on 2 May 1945 and within a week the Germans had
signed the document of surrender. After the war Zhukov was sidelined to minor military posts to keep him from
converting his immense personal popularity into a possible threat to Stalin's political control.

The death of Stalin in 1954 allowed Zhukov to serve as deputy minister of defense until 1957 when he
retired. He died in 1974 and was buried in Red Square at the Kremlin Wall. Recent articles have suggested
that Zhukov’s genius lay primarily in his ability to take the credit for the work of other generals.


_____________________________

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(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2306
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/18/2013 3:42:31 PM   
Orm


Posts: 5947
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
And the historical description of Timoshenko.
quote:

Aged 44 in 1939, Marshal of the Soviet Union Semyon Konstantinovich Timoshenko was drafted into the
Russian Army in 1915 and served as a cavalryman before joining the side of the revolutionaries in the 1917
Russian revolution. During the ensuing civil war Timoshenko fought at Tsaritsyn (Stalingrad) where he met and
befriended Joseph Stalin.

After the Civil War and the Russo-Polish war, Timoshenko was appointed as commander of the Red Army
cavalry forces and occupied a number of regional military commands before becoming commander of the whole
western border region in 1939. In this role he oversaw the Russian occupation of eastern Poland in accordance
with the terms of the Nazi-Soviet Pact. In the period leading up to the war Stalin had ruthlessly purged his
officer corps including three of the five Marshals of the Soviet Union. Only Marshals Budyonny and Voroshilov
survived and their lack of combat ability left Timoshenko as the senior professional military officer commanding
Russian forces.

From November 1939, Voroshilov had commanded Russian forces fighting the Russo-Finnish war and his
failure to conquer the smaller country led to his replacement by Timoshenko in January 1940. Within two
months, Timoshenko had beaten the Finns and Stalin rewarded the victorious general by naming him People's
commissar for defense and a Marshal of the Soviet Union. In his new role Timoshenko pushed for
mechanization of the army and moved to impose a stricter discipline on the troops. These initiatives were put
to the test eighteen months later when the Germans invaded Russia.

Stalin took over the post of defense commissar, which freed Timoshenko to conduct the fighting withdrawal
from the borderlands back to Smolensk. In September 1941, Timoshenko turned over the defense of Moscow
to Koniev and Zhukov and went south to stabilize the Ukraine front after disastrous losses at Kiev. By May
1942, Timoshenko was confident of launching a counterattack and threw 640,000 men at Kharkov. Although
Timoshenko's actions upset the timetable of Germany's drive on Stalingrad, his troops suffered over 200,000
casualties.

Thereafter, Stalin viewed Timoshenko as a second rank commander behind Zhukov and Koniev. He was
removed from front line command and posted to a variety of strategic coordination roles for the remainder of
the war. After WWII, Timoshenko occupied a series of Army commands and was appointed to the honorary
posts of inspector- general of the Defense Ministry (1960) and chairman of the State Committee for War
Veterans (1961). He died in Moscow in 1970.


_____________________________

Ladies and Gentlemen, this is your Captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them going again. I trust you are not in too much distress. - Captain Eric Moody

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 2307
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/18/2013 7:58:24 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
Thanks Orm.


I was just wondering if there was any mention of Stavka.

Stavka or the headquarters of the "Main Command of the Armed Forces of the USSR" was established on June 23, 1941 by the top secret decree signed by Joseph Stalin in his capacities both as the head of government and as the leader of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. According to this decree Stavka was composed of the Chairman of the Supreme Military Council of the Red Army Marshal Semyon Timoshenko, Deputy Supreme Commander in Chief of the Red Army Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov, Stalin, Vyacheslav Molotov, Marshal Kliment Voroshilov, Marshal Semyon Budyonny and the People's Commissar (Narkom) of the Navy Admiral Nikolai Gerasimovich Kuznetsov.

Note: Stavka is the correct spelling no capatial letters other than the "S".



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 2308
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/6/2013 9:11:55 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 18041
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
Here is the Corps counter for the Japanese SNLF unit

[2175] [Japanese Special Naval Landing Force Marine]
.P Due to the scale of World in Flames and the unit sizes in play, the depiction of units of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) – which were generally deployed in numbers smaller than a brigade - has to be necessarily ahistorical. It is right that these units are included within the game however. World in Flames allows the Japanese player to build one SNLF corps and two divisions.
.P During World War II the Japanese did not operate an autonomous marine branch in the way that their US counterparts did. However they did make use of naval troops. Such troops were used to land at key points – often ahead of a larger force – to seize key objectives.
.P The forerunners of the SNLF (Tokubetsu Rikusentai) were used for the first time during the fighting against Russia at the start of the 20th Century. Having proved their worth there and later in Manchuria, the Japanese began raising SNLF units at each of their four main naval bases.
.P The following units fought during World War II:
.P Kure naval base: 1st Kure SNLF, 2nd Kure, 3rd Kure, 5th Kure, 6th Kure and 7th Kure
.P Maizuru naval base: 1st Maizuru SNLF, 2nd Maizuru, 4th Maizuru and 5th Maizuru
.P Sasebo naval base: 1st Sasebo SNLF, 2nd Sasebo, 5th Sasebo, 6th Sasebo, 7th Sasebo and 8th Sasebo
.P Yokosuka naval base: 1st Yokosuka SNLF, 2nd Yokosuka, 3rd Yokosuka, 4th Yokosuka, 5th Yokosuka, 6th Yokosuka and 7th Yokosuka
.P In addition to the above, there were small Guard detachments that were based at other key ports and rivers such as Ryojun, Shanghai, Yangtse, Hankow and Canton.
.P The SNLF units varied in size. At most, a single unit was likely to contain no more than 1,600 men – roughly two battalions in size. The smallest units contained around 750 men. For some operations, two units could combine to form a brigade sized outfit. The 1st and 3rd Yokosuka SNLF’s were both airborne trained.
.P The division counters 2171 and 2172 provide details of some of the individual operations of the SNLF and these show at high level, how important these elite units were in the early stages of the war as the Japanese sought to expand their empire.
.P By June 1942, once the Japanese advance had been checked, the need for these troops was no longer as important. From elite, special purpose troops, they became nothing more than garrison troops that were, in many cases, annihilated as they sought to defend outposts in the Pacific; outposts that were taken one by one by the US juggernaut.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/6/2013 9:12:47 PM >


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(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 2309
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 10/7/2013 11:07:11 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
Change "Soviet Mongolian Army Group" to "Soviet Mongolian Army" or "Soviet Mongolian Army Group of Forces".

The USSR did not use Army Groups.



Change "Japanese Special Naval Landing Force Marine" To "Japanese Special Naval Landing Forces".

This was a common misconception but there were no Japanese Marines in World War II.


I can give you details if you would like them.



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University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2310
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