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RE: MWiF Map Review - America

 
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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/18/2007 12:34:16 AM   
Borger Borgersen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SS244
These features should give a defender an advantage regardless of the size of the city in question and I believe warrants the addition of Spokane to the map from a strategic stand point. Thanks for your attention.


We have used a rule of thumb that if the city had more than 100.000 inhabitants in 1940 it could be on the MWIF. I
just searched the Internet and found the following:

http://www.spokanecity.org/services/about/spokane/history/population/

If you look here you will see that Spokane had 122.000 inhabitants in 1940 so it could there we on the MWIF map. Maybe
it's good for supply reasons as well. Spokane is maybe 4 hexes east of Seattle. But Patrice would know better where it is exactly. ;)

What do you think, Steve and Patrice? Has SS244 a good point adding Spokane as a city. It had 122.000 inhabitants in 1940 and 115.500 inhabitants in 1930. So it's definitely big enough to be on the map.

(in reply to SS244)
Post #: 361
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/18/2007 12:43:51 AM   
Froonp


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Borger, Spokane is already on the MWiF map, since day 1.
It was added by the early designers of the early CWiF map, and it is still here.
My Atlas has it with a pop of 116k in 1940 and 122k in 1944, so yes I'm ok with Spokane being on the map.

I've made a survey of 100k cities in 1940, and some are missing around the Great Lakes and in the North East of the USA, but all the middle west and the west is OK.




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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/18/2007 1:39:18 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Patrice has drawn a rough draft for revising the rivers around Portland. If we modify the graphics (but not the underlying game play aspects) to match Patrice's draft, would everyone be happy with how Portland appears in WMIF?




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Post #: 363
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/19/2007 11:26:05 AM   
iamspamus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Patrice has drawn a rough draft for revising the rivers around Portland. If we modify the graphics (but not the underlying game play aspects) to match Patrice's draft, would everyone be happy with how Portland appears in WMIF?






Hey Steve and Patrice, This is better, but the Willamette must touch Portland as well. Don't know how that will work with rivers normally going along the hexside.

Either way, thanks for the look.

Jason

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 364
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/19/2007 11:41:04 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: iamspamus
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Patrice has drawn a rough draft for revising the rivers around Portland. If we modify the graphics (but not the underlying game play aspects) to match Patrice's draft, would everyone be happy with how Portland appears in WMIF?

Hey Steve and Patrice, This is better, but the Willamette must touch Portland as well. Don't know how that will work with rivers normally going along the hexside.

Either way, thanks for the look.

Jason

If Rob paints the river this way, I'll move Portland to 12 O'Clock position in the hex. Presently it is at 1 O'Clock.

(in reply to iamspamus)
Post #: 365
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/19/2007 7:54:58 PM   
BoerWar


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Not that it makes a huge difference, but the road/rail line running from Detroit to Chicago probably should be all rail and should run all the way to the shore hex on Lake Michigan. That rail line runs through the city of Holland which is a small harbor on the east coast of Lake Michigan. It was built in the 1870's.

(in reply to Flanker Leader)
Post #: 366
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/20/2007 4:14:41 PM   
iamspamus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: iamspamus
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Patrice has drawn a rough draft for revising the rivers around Portland. If we modify the graphics (but not the underlying game play aspects) to match Patrice's draft, would everyone be happy with how Portland appears in WMIF?

Hey Steve and Patrice, This is better, but the Willamette must touch Portland as well. Don't know how that will work with rivers normally going along the hexside.

Either way, thanks for the look.

Jason

If Rob paints the river this way, I'll move Portland to 12 O'Clock position in the hex. Presently it is at 1 O'Clock.



That'll be fine.
Thanks,
Jason

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 367
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 11:07:26 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Rob finished the map today. An awesome amount of work. And Patrice's work too.

Here are the screen shots of Central America, starting with Cuba, and the other islands that make up the West Indies.




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Post #: 368
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 11:09:06 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Here is the northern half of Mexico.




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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 11:10:31 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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And the southern half of Mexico.




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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 11:12:21 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Here are most of the countries the WIF refers to as "Central America".




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Post #: 371
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 11:17:07 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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A closeup of Panama and Costa Rica. You can also see where a second canal could be built through Lake Nicaragua. For those of you who like trick questions:
If you enter the Panama Canal from the Atlantic Ocean, in which direction will you be travaling? East or west?

As you can see, you travel east. This is good for a bar bet, but you need to have an atlas nearby to collect any winnings.




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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 11:19:31 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Colombia, Venezuela, and British Guyana. Personally, I like the detail around Maracaibo.




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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 11:28:04 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Seventh and last in the series: an overview of the Central Amercia map segment.

I have all of South America in my hot little hands but I'll post those screen shots tomorrow morning.

I am trying to make a point of getting to bed before midnight. This is especially important since they are shutting off the water in my building from 9 to noon tomorrow - very annoying but they now limit the shutoffs to Wednesday mornings only, so that helps some. The building is 30 years old and the management council paid for plumbing inspections for all the apartments (250). Now everyone is required to fix any problems that were discovered. Hence the frequent water shutoffs. Be that as it may, I feel you can tell the quality of your life by the 'problems' you have. And if being without water for 3 hours a week is at the top of the list, then things are going pretty well, doncha think?




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Post #: 374
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 12:57:14 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Colombia, Venezuela, and British Guyana. Personally, I like the detail around Maracaibo.

While I was reviewing the map, a couple of days ago, I saw in horror that Baranquilla was on the wrong side of the Magdalena river. Granted, this is a place that may never see a single unit, but I would like MWiF to have the best map possible, so I looked for solutions.

Here is what I found. On the left, this is how it is, on the center this is reality as of 1985, and on the right this is my proposal for change.

Edit : I also changed the terrain in Baranquilla, so that it is as on the WiF FE maps and reality seems to warrant a clear hex rather than a mountain hex. I also shown the southern hex changed into Forest.

May I propose this to Rob, Steve ?

We should also send him the Willamette modification.

Edit : Changed the picture.




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< Message edited by Froonp -- 2/28/2007 1:28:57 PM >

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Post #: 375
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 1:01:12 PM   
Froonp


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I would also change the hex south of Baranquilla to Forest instead of Mountain.
Edit : Modification made on the picture uploaded.

< Message edited by Froonp -- 2/28/2007 1:30:08 PM >

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Post #: 376
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 1:17:22 PM   
iamspamus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Rob finished the map today. An awesome amount of work. And Patrice's work too.

Here are the screen shots of Central America, starting with Cuba, and the other islands that make up the West Indies.






Hey guys, beautiful map, as usual. I talked with a guy who has been on Guantanamo and he said that MOST of the base is on the right side of the bay, not the left. Think it's too late but the US hex should straddle the bay, but mostly be on the right. Otherwise, probably the right hex should be the US space, unless you wanted to keep the space surrounded by Cuban spaces.

Thanks,
Jason

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 377
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 1:20:17 PM   
iamspamus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

And the southern half of Mexico.





Hey guys, keep up the great work...but, I talked to a guy who is from southern Mexico (father has a house in Merida / Progresso space). Two things.

1) Vera Cruz should be Veracruz. He pointed that out right away.
2) Not sure if you are putting stuff like "Island of" in a space but if so, it should be Isla del Carmen.

Otherwise, looks great. Keep it up.
Jason

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 378
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 3:23:59 PM   
Frederyck


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They look beautiful!

One comment: I am not sure how wide the inlet outside Maracaibo is, but given that we have a hexdot south of it (Lake Maracaibo) we are assuming that an enemy fleet could sail past the narrow part unhampered and that you can invade the Encontrados hex and that you can give Shore Bombardment in support during this.

Is this viable? As I implied, I haven't ever been near the place, but when I look at maps such as Lake Maracaibo at Encarta it looks like an awfully tight squeeze that might be comparable to the Strait of Gibraltar.

I know that the Oil hex in Venezuela has an all-sea side hex i WiF.

< Message edited by Frederyck -- 2/28/2007 3:40:17 PM >

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Post #: 379
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 4:36:00 PM   
qgaliana

 

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This is gonna be so pretty

Any chance it will run on a mac? I'd buy a second copy for a friend of mine just to play him.

(in reply to Frederyck)
Post #: 380
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 4:36:50 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Frederyck

They look beautiful!

One comment: I am not sure how wide the inlet outside Maracaibo is, but given that we have a hexdot south of it (Lake Maracaibo) we are assuming that an enemy fleet could sail past the narrow part unhampered and that you can invade the Encontrados hex and that you can give Shore Bombardment in support during this.

First, let me say again that this is the same on the WiF FE map.

Now, investigating a little, from Google Earth, I see that the inlet is about 40 km long and from 6-7 km to 18-20 km wide. Thats more narrow than Gibraltar.

[Gibraltar is 15 km wide at its narrowest point, and the length of the "narrow way" (15-40 km) is 50 km long. Just to compare to other places, the Malaca strait eastern entry is not wider (a couple of 15 km wide "entries"), and the length of the "narrow way" (about 40-60 km wide) is 300-350 km. The Strait of Aden is 20-40 km wide, and about 100 km long.]

But Gibraltar is also on of the the most important (maybe THE most important) base of the British, and they occupy it since 200 years, so maybe their strong naval occuation & patrols and their fortification of the Rock lead to the "blockade effect".

As a side note, that's why I advocate having other rules for Gibraltar passage in WiF FE, because what is blocking the way is not the land, but the military installations.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Maracaibo) we learn that it was the theater of a naval battle in 1823, a battle in the Venezuelan War of Independence. So, warships from early 19th century can enter the lake.
Also, I learnt that Lake Maracaibo is made of Brackish water which means less salted than seawater, but slatier than fresh water.

Also, in Pirate Gold, the famous Sid Meyer's game about piracy in the Caribbean during the 16th-17th century, I remember that I could sail my fleet inside the lake and attack its inner shores easily.

quote:

Is this viable? As I implied, I haven't ever been near the place, but when I look at maps such as Lake Maracaibo at Encarta it looks like an awfully tight squeeze that might be comparable to the Strait of Gibraltar.

I know that the Oil hex in Venezuela has an all-sea side hex i WiF.

Well, I don't know if this is viable for 20th century warships, but given what I wrote previously, I think that Lake Maracaibo can stay part of the Caribbean sea and allow ships to interact with its shores.

(in reply to Frederyck)
Post #: 381
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 4:41:40 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

1) Vera Cruz should be Veracruz. He pointed that out right away.
2) Not sure if you are putting stuff like "Island of" in a space but if so, it should be Isla del Carmen.

The map agree with you on Veracruz, so it is corrected.
For "Island of", I'm not sure of what you mean, but normaly I did not use the word "island" for island names, for example, Wake is simply "Wake", not "Wake Island". Is that what you were asking ?

(in reply to iamspamus)
Post #: 382
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 4:45:26 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: iamspamus
Hey guys, beautiful map, as usual. I talked with a guy who has been on Guantanamo and he said that MOST of the base is on the right side of the bay, not the left. Think it's too late but the US hex should straddle the bay, but mostly be on the right. Otherwise, probably the right hex should be the US space, unless you wanted to keep the space surrounded by Cuban spaces.

Well, I guess we cannot do much about it, except redraw the coastlines of this part of Cuba.

This said, I was not 100% happy with those coastlines (SE Cuba), because the overall landmass seemed not quite like the real map's landmasses, but I judged that this area was really not that important to bother redoing it, and let it how it was.

Now, if there is a concensus toward habing southeastern Cuba better... Is there one ?

(in reply to iamspamus)
Post #: 383
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 7:19:29 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: qgaliana
This is gonna be so pretty
Any chance it will run on a mac? I'd buy a second copy for a friend of mine just to play him.

It is not in the project plans, though using a Mac to run Windows (XP?) under emulation is a possibility.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 384
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 7:26:50 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Colombia, Venezuela, and British Guyana. Personally, I like the detail around Maracaibo.

While I was reviewing the map, a couple of days ago, I saw in horror that Baranquilla was on the wrong side of the Magdalena river. Granted, this is a place that may never see a single unit, but I would like MWiF to have the best map possible, so I looked for solutions.

Here is what I found. On the left, this is how it is, on the center this is reality as of 1985, and on the right this is my proposal for change.

Edit : I also changed the terrain in Baranquilla, so that it is as on the WiF FE maps and reality seems to warrant a clear hex rather than a mountain hex. I also shown the southern hex changed into Forest.

May I propose this to Rob, Steve ?

We should also send him the Willamette modification.

Edit : Changed the picture.




Patrice,

Let's let the forum members review the remaining 2 map segments (South America) and perhaps after a week of gestation put together a 'final' list of map modifications for Rob. I would like to tell him: "these are the last map modifications, and then it is done." I was able to do that with the units, and I haven't been back to him about any additional changes since May, 2006. As of today, map changes are: Calcutta, the Williamette, and Baranquilla. That's a pretty short list given that there are 5054 coastal hexes and 7173 river hexes/hexsides bitmaps.


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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 385
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 8:02:04 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Let's let the forum members review the remaining 2 map segments (South America) and perhaps after a week of gestation put together a 'final' list of map modifications for Rob. I would like to tell him: "these are the last map modifications, and then it is done." I was able to do that with the units, and I haven't been back to him about any additional changes since May, 2006. As of today, map changes are: Calcutta, the Williamette, and Baranquilla.

There is also the Zuider Zee to make as a Lake.

quote:

That's a pretty short list given that there are 5054 coastal hexes and 7173 river hexes/hexsides bitmaps.

Don't forget that I already had posted the drafts on the forums before going to Rob, so there already were a lots of changes .

< Message edited by Froonp -- 2/28/2007 8:18:37 PM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 386
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 8:10:48 PM   
Froonp


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There is also the All sea hexside between Hex 46,28 (Sheffield) and hex 45,28 (Hull) that can be improved (made deeper).

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 387
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 8:15:29 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
There is also the All sea hexside between Hex 46,28 (Sheffield) and hex 45,28 (Hull) that can be improved (made deeper).

You might want to review all the trouble spots from the WIFFE European map - the MWIF graphics were taken directly from that artwork.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 388
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 8:38:57 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
There is also the All sea hexside between Hex 46,28 (Sheffield) and hex 45,28 (Hull) that can be improved (made deeper).

You might want to review all the trouble spots from the WIFFE European map - the MWIF graphics were taken directly from that artwork.

So there might have been an alignement problem, by looking at this comparison, you see that the Hull / Sheffield separation is obvious on the WiF map, and not obvious at all on the MWiF map.




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Post #: 389
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 2/28/2007 9:12:23 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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It is more than simple alignment. The original WIF FE artwork had to be stretched along both axes to fit the given pixels per hex. And then the WI FE map did not have complete hexes along the borders, so the final version I got from Rob had to be repositioned both N-S and E-W to allow for the missing pixels (5 as I recall).

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