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MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands

 
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MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/8/2006 11:41:14 AM   
Froonp


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Some of these Islands (Canaries, Cape Verde) already appeared in the Africa thread.
Here are the Azores.




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RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/8/2006 6:30:42 PM   
lomyrin


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I assume Ponta Delgada is a port on both sea areas.

Lars

(in reply to Froonp)
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RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/8/2006 7:47:04 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

I assume Ponta Delgada is a port on both sea areas.

Lars

yes

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RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/8/2006 8:13:22 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

I assume Ponta Delgada is a port on both sea areas.

Lars

In the WiF FE world, Ponta Delgada is THE unique port of the Azores.
On the WiF FE map (AiF map indeed), it is not named and it is only 1 hex.

(in reply to lomyrin)
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RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/8/2006 8:31:53 PM   
lomyrin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

I assume Ponta Delgada is a port on both sea areas.

Lars

In the WiF FE world, Ponta Delgada is THE unique port of the Azores.
On the WiF FE map (AiF map indeed), it is not named and it is only 1 hex.


My question arises from the CWiF map where P Delgada is a port on both sea areas.

Lars

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 5
RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/8/2006 11:54:21 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
I assume Ponta Delgada is a port on both sea areas.

Lars

In the WiF FE world, Ponta Delgada is THE unique port of the Azores.
On the WiF FE map (AiF map indeed), it is not named and it is only 1 hex.


My question arises from the CWiF map where P Delgada is a port on both sea areas.

Lars


I do not understand the source of your confusion. Like any port hex that is adjacent to 2 or more sea areas (e.g. Gibraltar), the port can be reached from any and all of the adjacent sea areas (where the port icon is placed in the hex doesn't matter).

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RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/9/2006 12:42:53 AM   
trees trees

 

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that question will never die because on the WiFFE map most of the port symbols are very carefully drawn to indicate their connections to multiple zones. Even though buried somewhere in the rules is an explanation (maybe Batavia is the only confusing one left), even experienced WiF players get stuck on that point, until the rule is found. A definite important point in the documentation.


Might some of the Azores be mountain hexes? What a nice collection of little aircraft carriers out there.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 7
RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/9/2006 1:08:53 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees
that question will never die because on the WiFFE map most of the port symbols are very carefully drawn to indicate their connections to multiple zones. Even though buried somewhere in the rules is an explanation (maybe Batavia is the only confusing one left), even experienced WiF players get stuck on that point, until the rule is found. A definite important point in the documentation.

The ports symbols are not carefully placed to indicate their connections to multiple zones.
What is important is the hex in which the port is drawn that shows to which sea areas this port connects to. The port graphic is irrelevant, only the hex is.

(in reply to trees trees)
Post #: 8
RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/9/2006 1:20:16 AM   
Froonp


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Here is what Iceland looks.

Because of its position to the north, its distance to both the USA and the UK are not well represented.
A plane wanting to make the USA - UK trip passing through Greenland & Iceland has to travel (from Boston for example) about 40 hexes to Greenland, then about 30 hexes to Iceland, and then another 30 hexes to England.

The trip from Boston to the Azores is shorter, it is about 45 hexes, can be less if flying from another place in the US or Canada, and then about 35 hexes to Plymouth.

Those distances are quite different from those of WiF FE, but they are also more accurate.




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RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/9/2006 1:25:29 AM   
lomyrin


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The situation with Ponta Delgada, a port on both the North Atlantic and CSV sea areas, could be compared with the port of Legaspi in the Philippines which is on a hex that has sides both in the S China Sea and the Bismarck Sea but Legaspi a port only on the Bismarck Sea.

I agree with this and only raise it to make certain that clarity makes it obvious to everyone from what sea area a port can be reached.

Lars 

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 10
RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/9/2006 1:31:28 AM   
Zorachus99


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This dicussion brings up a point that Steve will have to attend to...

Rebasing German units to Brest during return to base phase from the North Sea, and then Sailing into the Bay of Biscay is not allowed. The rule preventing direct movement between the North Sea and the Bay of Biscay unless you control London is operational.  This rule has always seemed fuzzy to me...  Sneaking through Brest is something a new player always tries.

Is there some rules lawyer out there who knows more about this situation?

< Message edited by Zorachus99 -- 9/9/2006 1:32:04 AM >


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RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/9/2006 2:18:18 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

The situation with Ponta Delgada, a port on both the North Atlantic and CSV sea areas, could be compared with the port of Legaspi in the Philippines which is on a hex that has sides both in the S China Sea and the Bismarck Sea but Legaspi a port only on the Bismarck Sea.

I agree with this and only raise it to make certain that clarity makes it obvious to everyone from what sea area a port can be reached.

Lars 

Good point.

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 12
RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/9/2006 2:28:06 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
This dicussion brings up a point that Steve will have to attend to...

Rebasing German units to Brest during return to base phase from the North Sea, and then Sailing into the Bay of Biscay is not allowed. The rule preventing direct movement between the North Sea and the Bay of Biscay unless you control London is operational.  This rule has always seemed fuzzy to me...  Sneaking through Brest is something a new player always tries.

Is there some rules lawyer out there who knows more about this situation?


The rules are pretty clear on this. If you make it into 2 naval moves, it is legal. For example, return to base from the North Sea to Brest. At the start of the next turn you can move out into the Bay of Biscay.

The restricition is to prevent someone from spending a movement point to 'touch' base at Brest and continue on into the Bay of Biscay all in one move. For example, it prevents (unless the player controls London) a naval unit with 6 movement points from moving Hamburg -> North Sea -> Brest -> Bay of Biscay with 3 MP left for patrolling.

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Post #: 13
RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/9/2006 9:30:25 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

This dicussion brings up a point that Steve will have to attend to...

Rebasing German units to Brest during return to base phase from the North Sea, and then Sailing into the Bay of Biscay is not allowed. The rule preventing direct movement between the North Sea and the Bay of Biscay unless you control London is operational.  This rule has always seemed fuzzy to me...  Sneaking through Brest is something a new player always tries.

Is there some rules lawyer out there who knows more about this situation?

Steve is right in post 13, what he says is authorized by RAW.

In our group we play with a house rule that prevent moving from and to Brest from or into the North Sea if you do not control London (we also forbid Sea to land Operations from ships in the North Sea in England from London westwards, and in France from Calais westwards, for the side not controling London). We have the same kind of house rule for Frederiksavn and Tangier, as we find the RAW is totaly unrealistic here.

(in reply to Zorachus99)
Post #: 14
RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/9/2006 12:24:22 PM   
Neilster


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I know a limerick about the Azores!

There was a young lady from the Azores
Whose...ah...um...

Actually, the rest of it is not really for polite company.

It's good though. I suppose the Bishop from Hastings with a love of young things and the old lady from Nottingham who baked cakes and put snot-in-them are out too.

Bummer...

Cheers, Neilster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Some of these Islands (Canaries, Cape Verde) already appeared in the Africa thread.
Here are the Azores.






< Message edited by Neilster -- 9/10/2006 4:33:01 PM >

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 15
RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/10/2006 2:40:54 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

Might some of the Azores be mountain hexes? What a nice collection of little aircraft carriers out there.

None are all flat, but all have airports nowadays (looked up with Google Earth), so I think they can stay as Clear hexes.
They are not quite like Carriers though, because their supply hangs on the survivability of the CP sailing their Sea Area, and Naval Air missions take place before Naval movements.

But I agree their presence allows for quite a lot of potential Air Units to be based here.

The real problem is that it is too bad the WiF FE do not have a realistic rule about Portugal aligning, and about the results of an Allied DoW on it early in the war.

(in reply to trees trees)
Post #: 16
RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/10/2006 3:14:19 AM   
Flanker Leader


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here is a great link on (amoung other things) how the allies got permission to use the azores during the battle of the atlantic. the chapters on sweden and turkey are also very interesting...

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/goldp6.html

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Post #: 17
RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/10/2006 4:39:12 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader
here is a great link on (amoung other things) how the allies got permission to use the azores during the battle of the atlantic. the chapters on sweden and turkey are also very interesting...

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/goldp6.html


Verrrry interestingk. Thanks.

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RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/10/2006 1:26:11 PM   
Froonp


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There is a flaw in the Azores depiction on the MWiF map, and I'm surprised nobody commented on it.

As shown on the picture below, the Azores are not sitting on a Sea Area boundary on the WiF FE maps. They are on the border of the paper map, but they are not on the boundary.

So I believe the Sea Area border between the North Atlantic and the Bay of Biscay should be moved 1 hexrow to the east.

Distances are right on the other hand, that is the islands do not need to be moved.




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RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/10/2006 9:01:35 PM   
Zorachus99


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Yea that was annoying. I think it was for air limits to move across sea boundaries? That one always got on my nerves.

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RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/10/2006 10:39:09 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

There is a flaw in the Azores depiction on the MWiF map, and I'm surprised nobody commented on it.

As shown on the picture below, the Azores are not sitting on a Sea Area boundary on the WiF FE maps. They are on the border of the paper map, but they are not on the boundary.

So I believe the Sea Area border between the North Atlantic and the Bay of Biscay should be moved 1 hexrow to the east.

Distances are right on the other hand, that is the islands do not need to be moved.


Don't you mean between Cape St. Vincent and the North Atlantic?

If so, then there is the question about Santa Maria.

The absolute minimal change would be to place Sao Miguel's hex in the North Atlantic (adjacent only to the North Atlantic). The program should draw the boundary lines correctly. However, this solution is likely to confuse players what with the hex sitting smack-dab up against the border of the Cape St. Vincent sea area.

So, placing the hex east of Sao Miguel in the North Atlantic, and also the hex SE, clears up the confusion there. But then Santa Maria is in a similar situation.

Perhaps what is needed is to place the 3 hexes east of Santa Maria (NE, E, and SE) in the North Atlantic and the other 5 hexes west of them in the NA too. The overall shape of the hexes moved from Cape St. Vincent to the North Atlantic is a diamond of 9 hexes with Santa Maria in the center.

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Post #: 21
RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/10/2006 11:27:31 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

Don't you mean between Cape St. Vincent and the North Atlantic?

Yes

quote:

(...)

Perhaps what is needed is to place the 3 hexes east of Santa Maria (NE, E, and SE) in the North Atlantic and the other 5 hexes west of them in the NA too. The overall shape of the hexes moved from Cape St. Vincent to the North Atlantic is a diamond of 9 hexes with Santa Maria in the center.

I did it, and straightened the border going north.
See accompanying picture, who also shows the Madeira islands.




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RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/11/2006 12:01:14 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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I like it a lot.

_____________________________

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RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/11/2006 12:28:06 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I like it a lot.

Great, I have a fan !

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RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/11/2006 1:34:36 AM   
lomyrin


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Moving the Azores to be entirely within the North Atlantic rarher than on the border with CSV certainly makes the map correspond with WiFFE where CWiF did  not in this respect.

It also makes Ponta Delgada a little more difficult to take and to keep in supply and to use as a base.

Since the objective is to make it like WiFFE I must agree to the changes.

Lars

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 25
RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/13/2006 7:53:13 PM   
trees trees

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees
that question will never die because on the WiFFE map most of the port symbols are very carefully drawn to indicate their connections to multiple zones. Even though buried somewhere in the rules is an explanation (maybe Batavia is the only confusing one left), even experienced WiF players get stuck on that point, until the rule is found. A definite important point in the documentation.

The ports symbols are not carefully placed to indicate their connections to multiple zones.
What is important is the hex in which the port is drawn that shows to which sea areas this port connects to. The port graphic is irrelevant, only the hex is.



most of the boundary lines are drawn bisecting the port symbols...once you get used to looking at that, it seems to be rather defining. people always ask about the exceptions to this and the whole system needs to be carefully explained in the map documentation.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 26
RE: MWiF Map Review - Atlantic Islands - 9/13/2006 7:58:37 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees
that question will never die because on the WiFFE map most of the port symbols are very carefully drawn to indicate their connections to multiple zones. Even though buried somewhere in the rules is an explanation (maybe Batavia is the only confusing one left), even experienced WiF players get stuck on that point, until the rule is found. A definite important point in the documentation.

The ports symbols are not carefully placed to indicate their connections to multiple zones.
What is important is the hex in which the port is drawn that shows to which sea areas this port connects to. The port graphic is irrelevant, only the hex is.


most of the boundary lines are drawn bisecting the port symbols...once you get used to looking at that, it seems to be rather defining. people always ask about the exceptions to this and the whole system needs to be carefully explained in the map documentation.

I hope it will be.
I searched the WiF FE rulebook in this regard, and I did not found what I was looking for, so MWiF documentation has to be better here.

(in reply to trees trees)
Post #: 27
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