Matrix Games

quote:

I suggest adding '7' to the P-38J and L models, making their maneuverability values 21 and 22 respectively.

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ORIGINAL: Mifune

"German Pfiel - or a B-34" I believe you mean the Do-335

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ORIGINAL: witpqs

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ORIGINAL: el cid again
The question is: what is the special case effect? Add a point or two to the
maneuverability? Or multiply it times 1.5? Or something else?

Sid,

Here's my best guess. Considering my lack of expertise in this area, somebody with real knowledge please shoot it down if it's all wet.

I hesitate to say 'multiply it times 1.5' because some plane you find might bust the range limit (up to 30) that you've set. Furthermore, the true modification might be non-linear. Maybe a plane with a higher intrinsic value gets less added-value from the power aerilons?

I suggest adding '7' to the P-38J and L models, making their maneuverability values 21 and 22 respectively.

That is about a 1.5 multiple, but I would be cautious about using that as a general rule. I think 'black magic' is appropriate here.

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ORIGINAL: Bliztk

Operational Range is better to be accurate at expense of the other.
99% of times is the one in use in games

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ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

Well I am using the plane date from a program called IL-2 Compare.  It is a program that has charts to show top speed at all altitudes, manueverbiltiy by speed and degrees of turn per second, and rate of climb from sealevel to ceiling.  Granted it is from another game IL-2 Forgotten Battles / Pacific Pacific Fighters, which is considered the very best combat flight simulation out there today.  This program was made from plane data in the game.  You can find the program here in the downloads section  http://334theaglesquadron.com/portal/ . 

The technique I was using was take each plane's max level speed rating and max manueverability rating, and use each planes best rate of climb.  I have re-done all the planes in a mod I am working on already.  For manueverability, I took the rate of turn in degrees per second and doubled the number.  The problem I have run into is most of the Dutch planes are not in IL-2, so I sort of extrapolated the data by comparing planes and using the game data.

I think the data fits very well with historical plane data so far.  Japanese plane manueverability has increased a lot, while late war Allied planes have increased in speed.  The Soviet planes went up in several areas as well.  I will post a few examples of the new plane data using IL-2 Compare.
        Speed           Man             Climb
A6M2   320              44               2790
A6M3   340              42               2900
A6M5   350              42               3282
J2M     402              34               3952
Ki-43Ib 305              48               3180
Ki-44    340              36               3832
Ki-84Ia  411              38              2850
F2A      286              36              2598
F4F-3   315              36               2585
F6F      369              34               3040
F4U-1   407              32               3080
P-39D    376             36               2516
P-40E    345             34               2070
P-38G    395             26               3037
P-38L    415             30                3143
P-47D    420             29                2661
P-51D    426             29                2646
I-153c    253            53                3023
I-16c     270             40               3050
Yak-3    389             37                3608
La-7      407             40                4127
SpitVb    345            42                2550
SpitXIV   402            40                3700
Now I know these numbers will raise a few issues, but the thing to remember is this is the max speed at the ideal altitude for that plane, and best turn rate in degrees per second, and each are not the same.  In other words, every plane has a certain speed at which it can turn best, and a F4U can out turn a Zero at high speed, but not at lower speed.  But the maneuverability rating is the best a certain plane can turn at its best turning speed.  Of note is the Spit, far better maneuverability and good speed.  I found max range for a Spit to be 668K Vb and 698K XIV, which if you shave 20-30% off for combat time, that means about four hexs in the game for range, with internal fuel. 

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ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

Well I am using the plane date from a program called IL-2 Compare.  It is a program that has charts to show top speed at all altitudes, manueverbiltiy by speed and degrees of turn per second, and rate of climb from sealevel to ceiling.  Granted it is from another game IL-2 Forgotten Battles / Pacific Pacific Fighters, which is considered the very best combat flight simulation out there today.  This program was made from plane data in the game.  You can find the program here in the downloads section  http://334theaglesquadron.com/portal/ . 

The technique I was using was take each plane's max level speed rating and max manueverability rating, and use each planes best rate of climb.  I have re-done all the planes in a mod I am working on already.  For manueverability, I took the rate of turn in degrees per second and doubled the number.  The problem I have run into is most of the Dutch planes are not in IL-2, so I sort of extrapolated the data by comparing planes and using the game data.

I think the data fits very well with historical plane data so far.  Japanese plane manueverability has increased a lot, while late war Allied planes have increased in speed.  The Soviet planes went up in several areas as well.  I will post a few examples of the new plane data using IL-2 Compare.
        Speed           Man             Climb
A6M2   320              44               2790
A6M3   340              42               2900
A6M5   350              42               3282
J2M     402              34               3952
Ki-43Ib 305              48               3180
Ki-44    340              36               3832
Ki-84Ia  411              38              2850
F2A      286              36              2598
F4F-3   315              36               2585
F6F      369              34               3040
F4U-1   407              32               3080
P-39D    376             36               2516
P-40E    345             34               2070
P-38G    395             26               3037
P-38L    415             30                3143
P-47D    420             29                2661
P-51D    426             29                2646
I-153c    253            53                3023
I-16c     270             40               3050
Yak-3    389             37                3608
La-7      407             40                4127
SpitVb    345            42                2550
SpitXIV   402            40                3700
Now I know these numbers will raise a few issues, but the thing to remember is this is the max speed at the ideal altitude for that plane, and best turn rate in degrees per second, and each are not the same.  In other words, every plane has a certain speed at which it can turn best, and a F4U can out turn a Zero at high speed, but not at lower speed.  But the maneuverability rating is the best a certain plane can turn at its best turning speed.  Of note is the Spit, far better maneuverability and good speed.  I found max range for a Spit to be 668K Vb and 698K XIV, which if you shave 20-30% off for combat time, that means about four hexs in the game for range, with internal fuel. 

REPLY: This is interesting, but not germane to our situation. We do not get to rate planes at different altitudes - which I would prefer - nor to separate maneuverability in a turn sense from maneuverability in a speed/climb/dive sense.
Also, in technical terms, I don't like numbers in this range, because of the impact on air combat lethality in our engine.
But we might divide them by two - if of course the model permitted a maneuverability rating of this sort - which it doesn't at the moment.

We have found a better composite system than we had - or than existed anywhere else so far. So we will go with it - and hope for a better model with more fields some day. This discussion has turned out better than seemed likely - having failed twice along the way to produce anything useful - we finally have something.

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ORIGINAL: el cid again

Well, actually, I do think the Zero is almost the greatest thing since sliced bread, but NOT because it could
outmaneuver a biplane - or even a fine monoplane like the Ki-27. I am not a deciple of "turning rates are
all that matters in air combat" - and the history of US fighter operations in PTO would read very differently if
it were.

The Zero was fabulous because of what it could do when it could do it. It wasn't the fastest fighter in the world, nor the most maneuverable. It had severe (if deliberate) weakness in the form of no armor or self sealing tanks. This was done on purpose so that, with a limited power plant, it could achieve superb range - probably the greatest in the world at the time. It also had a relatively powerful armament - in an age where first line fighter planes almost universally used machine guns it used mixed cannon and machine guns. Add to that it was a carrier plane. Certainly it was a very useful plane - and - with the Ki-43 Hayabusa (which Rene Francillon says "was almost as great a technical surprise as the Zero") it dominated the early PTO skies. What makes a plane great is usually not that it is the very best at anything, but the sum of a number of factors - and how that matters at a particular point in time.
At a different time the same plane is not impressive - as happened to the Zero. The Corsair may have been as great a carrier fighter for its era - but it is no longer used even as a second line fighter. What matters is not some abstract statistics - although here the Corsair can claim still to be setting speed records - but a useful combination of factors at a particular moment in history.

I would be very suspicious if the Ki-10, Ki-27, and other fine planes were not rated as more maneuverable than a Zero.
Maneuverable it was - but not the most maneuverable. The quest for maneuverability in JAAF was a mistake - and IJN was wise not to make it the main thing.

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ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

Have you had any more results back from the tests of the new improved aircraft, please? I am interested to know how the P-38 is comparing to it's historical results. From what I have read here since my last post it sounds like you and the other contributors are happier with the ratings. I get the feeling that all work done here is leading to a greater purpose (WitP 2!), so thanks for all your hard work and your openness. I was initially not that interested in RHS, but having seen the way it is being continually refined may have to take the plunge once a relatively stable "no more major tweaks" version is released. Do you have any idea when that might be?

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ORIGINAL: Mifune

Here are some initial P-38 ratings of which you can see its improvement. P-38J=15 which represents a fine twin engined aircraft. P-38L=20 which is an outstanding rating for a twin engine and reflects its technological advances.

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ORIGINAL: Mifune

Here are some initial P-38 ratings of which you can see its improvement. P-38J=15 which represents a fine twin engined aircraft. P-38L=20 which is an outstanding rating for a twin engine and reflects its technological advances.

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ORIGINAL: el cid again

That is the raw value without any modifier.

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ORIGINAL: witpqs

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ORIGINAL: el cid again

That is the raw value without any modifier.

Okay - part two of the question: Do you plan to use it that way or bump it up to reflect the powered aerilons?