How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

From the creators of Crown of Glory come an epic tale of North Vs. South. By combining area movement on the grand scale with optional hex based tactical battles when they occur, Forge of Freedom provides something for every strategy gamer. Control economic development, political development with governers and foreign nations, and use your military to win the bloodiest war in US history.

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PDiFolco
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How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by PDiFolco »

Hello,
I'm pretty interested in FoF, as I like the Civil War theme and I've found CoG a rather good game (even if it has its shortcomings).

One of the thing I don't "see" well is how will FoF manage the naval aspects of the Civil War : there was no big fleet battles to speak of, but rather numerous small ship combats, with many river action, and mostly an overwhelming Yank superiority leading them to blockade CSA main ports with hosts of small ships in order to deny Confederate trade of cotton vs arms ...
Will that be simulated in-game with real blockading fleets ?
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ericbabe
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by ericbabe »

Thank you.  Which aspects of CoG do you think were shortcomings, and which other games would you recommend as examples of games that don't have shortcomings in those areas?

The naval rules are similar to CoG, but in a typical game there won't be many important naval actions, for the reasons you mentioned.  Fleets can still blockade, and there are blockade-runners, but the naval aspect of the game is secondary to the ground forces.


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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by marecone »

How do you think secondary?
The naval aspect of ACW was very important. Blocade, Anaconda plan, battle of ironclads. If you have the time and resources I think you should improve that one.
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by PDiFolco »

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

Thank you.  Which aspects of CoG do you think were shortcomings, and which other games would you recommend as examples of games that don't have shortcomings in those areas?

The naval rules are similar to CoG, but in a typical game there won't be many important naval actions, for the reasons you mentioned.  Fleets can still blockade, and there are blockade-runners, but the naval aspect of the game is secondary to the ground forces.

Re "shortcomings" I've found the economic part of CoG too complicated and frustrating, ant the trade (rather "barter") system unpractical and unrealistic. About games getting it right, I'd prefer a simplified system such as GGWaW for example, but can't find an example of strategic game with the good balance....

I agree the naval aspects are secondary, if we have blockade, runners, and some ironclad action I'd be happy ;)
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by RolandRahn_MatrixForum »

Please don't forget the CSA raiders....
Alabama?
When they are successfull, the insurance fees for ships should skyrocket, thus creating more damage than just sinking a union merchant ship.
And what about naval war when the Brits/Frenchmen intervene?
Or, is it more klike "No greater glory", were the war ended automatically with a CSA victory when France/UK intervened?
 
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Roland
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by marecone »

ORIGINAL: RolandRahn

Please don't forget the CSA raiders....
Alabama?
When they are successfull, the insurance fees for ships should skyrocket, thus creating more damage than just sinking a union merchant ship.
And what about naval war when the Brits/Frenchmen intervene?
Or, is it more klike "No greater glory", were the war ended automatically with a CSA victory when France/UK intervened?

Kind regards,
Roland
(When will it be finished? When will it be finished? When will it be finished? When.....)

You (game makers) simply have to take in consideration this naval aspect. It was very, very important in civil war era.

Godspeed

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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by ericbabe »

ORIGINAL: marecone
How do you think secondary?
The naval aspect of ACW was very important. Blocade, Anaconda plan, battle of ironclads. If you have the time and resources I think you should improve that one.

We have fleets, they can blockade. We have ironclads, they can battle. But these things are modeled in much less detail than, say, battles on land, which use a very thorough system to model many details, hence "secondary". My opinion is that most players would not find a system that thoroughly modeled all of the details of setting up and maintaining a blockade to be particularly enjoyable. A detailed battle between ironclads might be enjoyable, but such a thing seems to be outside of the scope of a grand strategy game.


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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by marecone »

ORIGINAL: ericbabe
ORIGINAL: marecone
How do you think secondary?
The naval aspect of ACW was very important. Blocade, Anaconda plan, battle of ironclads. If you have the time and resources I think you should improve that one.

We have fleets, they can blockade. We have ironclads, they can battle. But these things are modeled in much less detail than, say, battles on land, which use a very thorough system to model many details, hence "secondary". My opinion is that most players would not find a system that thoroughly modeled all of the details of setting up and maintaining a blockade to be particularly enjoyable. A detailed battle between ironclads might be enjoyable, but such a thing seems to be outside of the scope of a grand strategy game.



Ok. You are the boss[;)] Amphibious actions?
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by RolandRahn_MatrixForum »

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

(snip)

We have fleets, they can blockade. We have ironclads, they can battle. But these things are modeled in much less detail than, say, battles on land, which use a very thorough system to model many details, hence "secondary". My opinion is that most players would not find a system that thoroughly modeled all of the details of setting up and maintaining a blockade to be particularly enjoyable. A detailed battle between ironclads might be enjoyable, but such a thing seems to be outside of the scope of a grand strategy game.

All true. I was just wondering if CSA raiders are regarded.
In "No Greater Glory", the model for Blocade/Raiders was simple:
Each turn, the US could by frigates (to counter CSA raiders) and blocade ships (to blocade the CSA harbours).
The CSA could purchase raiders and blocade runners.

The more southern harbours were controlled by the union, the more effective the blocade ships became.

And....

OK, I give it up. I will now search for a program emulating an old PC on my Windows XP so that I can play No Greater Glory again. [;)]

Kind regards,
Roland
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by jchastain »

ORIGINAL: RolandRahn

And....

OK, I give it up. I will now search for a program emulating an old PC on my Windows XP so that I can play No Greater Glory again. [;)]

Kind regards,
Roland

Try DosBox. The other option is to make a bootable DOS CD with the game on it and actually run your computer with an old version of DOS. There are some sites that explain how to do that, but the downside is that you can't get DOS sound drivers for newer audio chips so you have to play without sound. Overall, just get DosBox: DosBox
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by anarchyintheuk »

ORIGINAL: RolandRahn

OK, I give it up. I will now search for a program emulating an old PC on my Windows XP so that I can play No Greater Glory again. [;)]

I think I'll go looking for my old copy as well.
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by ravinhood »

I'm with Ericbabe on this one, don't need all that detail when the LAND battles will be the most fun and interesting to play. Abstract naval has always been fine by me in any wargames. I don't care for naval battles of any type except carrier battles like Midway and such. Good going Eric you're doin the right thing. ;)
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by jchastain »

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

I'm with Ericbabe on this one, don't need all that detail when the LAND battles will be the most fun and interesting to play. Abstract naval has always been fine by me in any wargames. I don't care for naval battles of any type except carrier battles like Midway and such. Good going Eric you're doin the right thing. ;)

I'm with you 100% ravinhood; I also think they are heading down the right road. That said, for anyone wishing to play old games, DosBox is a great tool. But as far as I am concerned, FoF is looking better to me than any of the old titles. It includes the naval factors that influenced the war while concentrating on the land battles that defined the war.
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by fmonster »

ORIGINAL: jchastain

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

I'm with Ericbabe on this one, don't need all that detail when the LAND battles will be the most fun and interesting to play. Abstract naval has always been fine by me in any wargames. I don't care for naval battles of any type except carrier battles like Midway and such. Good going Eric you're doin the right thing. ;)

I'm with you 100% ravinhood; I also think they are heading down the right road. That said, for anyone wishing to play old games, DosBox is a great tool. But as far as I am concerned, FoF is looking better to me than any of the old titles. It includes the naval factors that influenced the war while concentrating on the land battles that defined the war.

I'm with you both! And, while graphics are not a high priority in my strategy/war games, the old Dos games make me sick!!
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by Kung Karl »

Just must say that this game looks awsome . But, for those of you ho want something to play untill it gets released, get Dosbox and fire up No greater glory. Wonderful game. If you can, get the Amiga version since it looks nicer.
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by Gil R. »

One of you asked about amphibious actions -- yes, you can carry troops by ship and then land them somewhere. When I play the CSA the USA has a nasty habit of doing this in the Carolinas.

I'm right now at the beginning months of a playtest in which I'm playing the South and putting all of my resources into naval combat. Should be interesting to see what happens...
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by fmonster »

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

One of you asked about amphibious actions -- yes, you can carry troops by ship and then land them somewhere. When I play the CSA the USA has a nasty habit of doing this in the Carolinas.

I'm right now at the beginning months of a playtest in which I'm playing the South and putting all of my resources into naval combat. Should be interesting to see what happens...

So, how has it gone so far?[:)]
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by Gil R. »

ORIGINAL: fmonster

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

One of you asked about amphibious actions -- yes, you can carry troops by ship and then land them somewhere. When I play the CSA the USA has a nasty habit of doing this in the Carolinas.

I'm right now at the beginning months of a playtest in which I'm playing the South and putting all of my resources into naval combat. Should be interesting to see what happens...

So, how has it gone so far?[:)]


I just spent the past few days moving. I'll resume play-testing tonight. My goal with this particular round of play-testing is to see how much it would take for the CSA navy to trounce the USA's navy.

All I know is that if he hasn't already come up with the Ironclad graphics, Pixelpusher better do so soon, since I'm just six turns away from completing my first!

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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by fmonster »

Maybe you could sub a barge graphics to cover for it. [;)] Speaking of barges, are they modeled in any way? What do you do for, say, Mississippi crossings? [8D]
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

Post by Jasmo »

I am very concerned with the discussion here. The war west of the Appalacians was a river war. Not only transporting troops but providing river based bombardment, the blocking of supplies. The land infrastructure west of the Appelacians was very under developed compared to the east as the rivers were the main avenues of transport and commerce. To view these as minor and seconedary would risk having this a seriously flawed game that does not in any way reflect the realities of the Civil War in the west.
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