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How will be managed the naval side of the war ?

 
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How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 7/31/2006 1:09:48 PM   
PDiFolco

 

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Hello,
I'm pretty interested in FoF, as I like the Civil War theme and I've found CoG a rather good game (even if it has its shortcomings).

One of the thing I don't "see" well is how will FoF manage the naval aspects of the Civil War : there was no big fleet battles to speak of, but rather numerous small ship combats, with many river action, and mostly an overwhelming Yank superiority leading them to blockade CSA main ports with hosts of small ships in order to deny Confederate trade of cotton vs arms ...
Will that be simulated in-game with real blockading fleets ?
Post #: 1
RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 7/31/2006 5:23:35 PM   
ericbabe


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Thank you.  Which aspects of CoG do you think were shortcomings, and which other games would you recommend as examples of games that don't have shortcomings in those areas?

The naval rules are similar to CoG, but in a typical game there won't be many important naval actions, for the reasons you mentioned.  Fleets can still blockade, and there are blockade-runners, but the naval aspect of the game is secondary to the ground forces.



(in reply to PDiFolco)
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 7/31/2006 5:37:02 PM   
marecone


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How do you think secondary?
The naval aspect of ACW was very important. Blocade, Anaconda plan, battle of ironclads. If you have the time and resources I think you should improve that one.

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 3
RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 7/31/2006 6:13:07 PM   
PDiFolco

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

Thank you.  Which aspects of CoG do you think were shortcomings, and which other games would you recommend as examples of games that don't have shortcomings in those areas?

The naval rules are similar to CoG, but in a typical game there won't be many important naval actions, for the reasons you mentioned.  Fleets can still blockade, and there are blockade-runners, but the naval aspect of the game is secondary to the ground forces.



Re "shortcomings" I've found the economic part of CoG too complicated and frustrating, ant the trade (rather "barter") system unpractical and unrealistic. About games getting it right, I'd prefer a simplified system such as GGWaW for example, but can't find an example of strategic game with the good balance....

I agree the naval aspects are secondary, if we have blockade, runners, and some ironclad action I'd be happy ;)

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 4
RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 8/1/2006 3:17:31 PM   
RolandRahn

 

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Please don't forget the CSA raiders....
Alabama?
When they are successfull, the insurance fees for ships should skyrocket, thus creating more damage than just sinking a union merchant ship.
And what about naval war when the Brits/Frenchmen intervene?
Or, is it more klike "No greater glory", were the war ended automatically with a CSA victory when France/UK intervened?

Kind regards,
Roland
(When will it be finished? When will it be finished? When will it be finished? When.....)

(in reply to PDiFolco)
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 8/1/2006 4:41:59 PM   
marecone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RolandRahn

Please don't forget the CSA raiders....
Alabama?
When they are successfull, the insurance fees for ships should skyrocket, thus creating more damage than just sinking a union merchant ship.
And what about naval war when the Brits/Frenchmen intervene?
Or, is it more klike "No greater glory", were the war ended automatically with a CSA victory when France/UK intervened?

Kind regards,
Roland
(When will it be finished? When will it be finished? When will it be finished? When.....)


You (game makers) simply have to take in consideration this naval aspect. It was very, very important in civil war era.

Godspeed



< Message edited by marecone -- 8/1/2006 4:42:40 PM >


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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 8/1/2006 4:46:55 PM   
ericbabe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marecone
How do you think secondary?
The naval aspect of ACW was very important. Blocade, Anaconda plan, battle of ironclads. If you have the time and resources I think you should improve that one.


We have fleets, they can blockade. We have ironclads, they can battle. But these things are modeled in much less detail than, say, battles on land, which use a very thorough system to model many details, hence "secondary". My opinion is that most players would not find a system that thoroughly modeled all of the details of setting up and maintaining a blockade to be particularly enjoyable. A detailed battle between ironclads might be enjoyable, but such a thing seems to be outside of the scope of a grand strategy game.



(in reply to marecone)
Post #: 7
RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 8/1/2006 4:48:29 PM   
marecone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

quote:

ORIGINAL: marecone
How do you think secondary?
The naval aspect of ACW was very important. Blocade, Anaconda plan, battle of ironclads. If you have the time and resources I think you should improve that one.


We have fleets, they can blockade. We have ironclads, they can battle. But these things are modeled in much less detail than, say, battles on land, which use a very thorough system to model many details, hence "secondary". My opinion is that most players would not find a system that thoroughly modeled all of the details of setting up and maintaining a blockade to be particularly enjoyable. A detailed battle between ironclads might be enjoyable, but such a thing seems to be outside of the scope of a grand strategy game.





Ok. You are the boss Amphibious actions?


_____________________________

"I have never, on the field of battle, sent you where I was unwilling to go myself; nor would I now advise you to a course which I felt myself unwilling to pursue."

Nathan Bedford Forrest

(in reply to ericbabe)
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 8/1/2006 8:33:43 PM   
RolandRahn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

(snip)

We have fleets, they can blockade. We have ironclads, they can battle. But these things are modeled in much less detail than, say, battles on land, which use a very thorough system to model many details, hence "secondary". My opinion is that most players would not find a system that thoroughly modeled all of the details of setting up and maintaining a blockade to be particularly enjoyable. A detailed battle between ironclads might be enjoyable, but such a thing seems to be outside of the scope of a grand strategy game.


All true. I was just wondering if CSA raiders are regarded.
In "No Greater Glory", the model for Blocade/Raiders was simple:
Each turn, the US could by frigates (to counter CSA raiders) and blocade ships (to blocade the CSA harbours).
The CSA could purchase raiders and blocade runners.

The more southern harbours were controlled by the union, the more effective the blocade ships became.

And....

OK, I give it up. I will now search for a program emulating an old PC on my Windows XP so that I can play No Greater Glory again.

Kind regards,
Roland

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 9
RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 8/1/2006 8:48:37 PM   
jchastain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RolandRahn

And....

OK, I give it up. I will now search for a program emulating an old PC on my Windows XP so that I can play No Greater Glory again.

Kind regards,
Roland


Try DosBox. The other option is to make a bootable DOS CD with the game on it and actually run your computer with an old version of DOS. There are some sites that explain how to do that, but the downside is that you can't get DOS sound drivers for newer audio chips so you have to play without sound. Overall, just get DosBox: DosBox

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Post #: 10
RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 8/2/2006 12:01:56 AM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RolandRahn

OK, I give it up. I will now search for a program emulating an old PC on my Windows XP so that I can play No Greater Glory again.



I think I'll go looking for my old copy as well.

(in reply to RolandRahn)
Post #: 11
RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 8/2/2006 12:47:32 AM   
ravinhood


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I'm with Ericbabe on this one, don't need all that detail when the LAND battles will be the most fun and interesting to play. Abstract naval has always been fine by me in any wargames. I don't care for naval battles of any type except carrier battles like Midway and such. Good going Eric you're doin the right thing. ;)

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Post #: 12
RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 8/2/2006 1:44:36 AM   
jchastain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

I'm with Ericbabe on this one, don't need all that detail when the LAND battles will be the most fun and interesting to play. Abstract naval has always been fine by me in any wargames. I don't care for naval battles of any type except carrier battles like Midway and such. Good going Eric you're doin the right thing. ;)


I'm with you 100% ravinhood; I also think they are heading down the right road. That said, for anyone wishing to play old games, DosBox is a great tool. But as far as I am concerned, FoF is looking better to me than any of the old titles. It includes the naval factors that influenced the war while concentrating on the land battles that defined the war.

(in reply to ravinhood)
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 8/2/2006 1:51:27 AM   
fmonster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jchastain


quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

I'm with Ericbabe on this one, don't need all that detail when the LAND battles will be the most fun and interesting to play. Abstract naval has always been fine by me in any wargames. I don't care for naval battles of any type except carrier battles like Midway and such. Good going Eric you're doin the right thing. ;)


I'm with you 100% ravinhood; I also think they are heading down the right road. That said, for anyone wishing to play old games, DosBox is a great tool. But as far as I am concerned, FoF is looking better to me than any of the old titles. It includes the naval factors that influenced the war while concentrating on the land battles that defined the war.


I'm with you both! And, while graphics are not a high priority in my strategy/war games, the old Dos games make me sick!!

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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 8/2/2006 11:37:45 AM   
Kung Karl

 

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Just must say that this game looks awsome . But, for those of you ho want something to play untill it gets released, get Dosbox and fire up No greater glory. Wonderful game. If you can, get the Amiga version since it looks nicer.

< Message edited by Kung Karl -- 8/2/2006 11:38:07 AM >

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Post #: 15
RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 8/2/2006 9:52:41 PM   
Gil R.


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One of you asked about amphibious actions -- yes, you can carry troops by ship and then land them somewhere. When I play the CSA the USA has a nasty habit of doing this in the Carolinas.

I'm right now at the beginning months of a playtest in which I'm playing the South and putting all of my resources into naval combat. Should be interesting to see what happens...

(in reply to Kung Karl)
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 8/3/2006 7:24:25 AM   
fmonster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

One of you asked about amphibious actions -- yes, you can carry troops by ship and then land them somewhere. When I play the CSA the USA has a nasty habit of doing this in the Carolinas.

I'm right now at the beginning months of a playtest in which I'm playing the South and putting all of my resources into naval combat. Should be interesting to see what happens...


So, how has it gone so far?

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Matrix Games Owned

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- Forge Of Freedom
- John Tiller's Campaign Series
- Titans Of Steel
- TOAW III
- War In The Pacific
- War In The Pacific AE
- War Plan Orange

(in reply to Gil R.)
Post #: 17
RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 8/3/2006 8:26:59 PM   
Gil R.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fmonster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

One of you asked about amphibious actions -- yes, you can carry troops by ship and then land them somewhere. When I play the CSA the USA has a nasty habit of doing this in the Carolinas.

I'm right now at the beginning months of a playtest in which I'm playing the South and putting all of my resources into naval combat. Should be interesting to see what happens...


So, how has it gone so far?



I just spent the past few days moving. I'll resume play-testing tonight. My goal with this particular round of play-testing is to see how much it would take for the CSA navy to trounce the USA's navy.

All I know is that if he hasn't already come up with the Ironclad graphics, Pixelpusher better do so soon, since I'm just six turns away from completing my first!


(in reply to fmonster)
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 8/3/2006 9:41:57 PM   
fmonster


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Maybe you could sub a barge graphics to cover for it. Speaking of barges, are they modeled in any way? What do you do for, say, Mississippi crossings?

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- Titans Of Steel
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 8/15/2006 6:41:30 PM   
Jasmo

 

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I am very concerned with the discussion here. The war west of the Appalacians was a river war. Not only transporting troops but providing river based bombardment, the blocking of supplies. The land infrastructure west of the Appelacians was very under developed compared to the east as the rivers were the main avenues of transport and commerce. To view these as minor and seconedary would risk having this a seriously flawed game that does not in any way reflect the realities of the Civil War in the west.

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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 8/15/2006 6:47:56 PM   
Feralkoala

 

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My guess is that any 'minor and secondary' nature is in the complexity of the rules used to simulate them. The control of the rivers was of enormous importance, but from a *game* point of view, most of what needs to be done is giving the Union amphibious and transport capacity in using them--the Confederate efforts are going to be modelled in having forts block Union movement and the odd ironclad or two. So, the rules and game systems likely aren't very complex (especially compared to the land system), but that doesn't make the implications of gaining or losing control of the rivers trivial.

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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 8/15/2006 6:51:52 PM   
Jasmo

 

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No problem with simplicity as long as it accurately reflects moving forces and keeping them supplied by land is much more difficutl than doing so by water.

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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 8/15/2006 9:55:10 PM   
Gil R.


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Jasmo, the game does have gunboats, and these are used to besiege forts on rivers in combination with ground forces. We do not have vessels for transportation across rivers, but this is abstracted into the game in terms of higher movement costs.

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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 10/30/2006 2:49:43 PM   
PDiFolco

 

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Bump, could we summarize what we'll have ?
I've understood that we'll have ships units of various types, Ironclads, gunboats ... and certainly naval battles à la CoG
But how we'll be managed aspects such as blockades and runners ? Through units or somewhat abstracted ? How will CSA suffer from blockades or benefit from running them ?
Will raiders appear as standard ships ? How will raids be handled ?

(in reply to Gil R.)
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A moving experience - 10/30/2006 6:30:09 PM   
Jonathan Palfrey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.
I just spent the past few days moving.


Wow. On top of everything else that's going on, you're moving home? There could be a lot of work and upheaval concealed behind those few words...

(in reply to Gil R.)
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 10/30/2006 7:24:46 PM   
pixelpusher


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R. All I know is that if he hasn't already come up with the Ironclad graphics, Pixelpusher better do so soon, since I'm just six turns away from completing my first!


All the units are done and loaded into the game. The ships have been done for some time, actually.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RolandRahn And what about naval war when the Brits/Frenchmen intervene?
Or, is it more klike "No greater glory", were the war ended automatically with a CSA victory when France/UK intervened?


UK and France can both enter the war on the side of the CSA player, and you can slug it out with them both on land and sea. They have regular ships of the line and also frigates. UK infantry can also show up in detailed combat and quick combat. I believe the UK units come down from Canada, and the French show up in ships. Perhaps someone else on the team can better explain how the European Powers work in-game. (Eric, Gil, Z, Sarge?)

(in reply to Gil R.)
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 10/30/2006 7:40:54 PM   
jimwinsor


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Actually French troops, should they enter the war on the side of the CSA, start in Texas (they are assumed to be coming from Napoleon III's expeditionary force in Mexico).  Both Britain and France send sizable fleets into US waters as well.

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RE: A moving experience - 10/31/2006 12:04:22 AM   
Gil R.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Palfrey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.
I just spent the past few days moving.


Wow. On top of everything else that's going on, you're moving home? There could be a lot of work and upheaval concealed behind those few words...


No, I wasn't moving home (as in moving back in with my parents). I was moving from a job in Baltimore to one in Cleveland. But that's in the distant past now.

I just didn't want anyone thinking I still live with my parents. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, I'll hastily add, knowing that this forum is visited by gamers...)

(in reply to Jonathan Palfrey)
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RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 10/31/2006 12:07:57 AM   
Gil R.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco

Bump, could we summarize what we'll have ?
I've understood that we'll have ships units of various types, Ironclads, gunboats ... and certainly naval battles à la CoG
But how we'll be managed aspects such as blockades and runners ? Through units or somewhat abstracted ? How will CSA suffer from blockades or benefit from running them ?
Will raiders appear as standard ships ? How will raids be handled ?



I don't have time to go into detail (I promised Eric my final contributions to the game tonight), but I'll say:
1) Runners show up as ships that one sends to whichever sea zone has the most desirable "runners goods" (e.g., 50 Weapons, 10 Money, 30 Horses), and they then have a %chance of acquiring those goods, but also a different %chance of sustaining damage or being destroyed.
2) Blockades are handled in the abstract, by a fleet in the adjacent sea zone being set to "blockade" a particular harbor. As more harbors are blockaded, the CSA is able to receive less income.

There are certain upgrades that effect these operations (see the upgrades list I posted elsewhere).

(in reply to PDiFolco)
Post #: 29
RE: How will be managed the naval side of the war ? - 10/31/2006 2:40:40 AM   
andysomers

 

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If you guys look at the naval graphics and discussion that has been posted, I think you will be pleasantly surprised.  I don't want to spend an inordinate amount of time with naval combat either, but something similar to what is proposed I think is fair and interesting.  The Civil War in the West, East, South, North, wherever, was much more about the Gettysburgs and the Shilohs than the Fort Fishers, Grand Gulfs, and the Mobile Bays.  Rivers and seas play their part, but it's mostly a support role (supply, transport, guarding and controlling rivers/seas, blockading, etc.) and I'm glad to see this play an appropriate back seat role to land movement and combat.   By the same token, I like that this is simulated, even with a tactical screen!

Keep up the good work.

AS

(in reply to Gil R.)
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