Test of Invasion-Induced Reinforcements

[ADavidB]

I set up a quick test to verify what happens with v1.801 when Indo-China, Russia and the West Coast are invaded. This is a "vanilla ice-cream" installation of the Game, with no mods or different maps. I started a head-to-head game, with most of the options "off", and a non-historical start.

When I did the first turns for both sides I stood down all aircraft, cancelled most sailing orders and disbanded most transports. The things I did for the test were:

1 - Set the Chinese troops near Hanoi on a march to Hanoi

2 - Set the Japanese troop transports that were destined to go to the Philippines and Malaya to go to various West Coast or Soviet ports. I removed the escort vessels so that the TFs didn't slow down to refuel. Note, I couldn't send any TFs directly to any Soviet ports because the Soviets weren't yet activated.

3 - Set some of the Japanese troops at the Soviet border to invade

I checked the numbers of units around in the three regions. The Soviets had around 89 LCUs including 24 INF and 3 ARM. They were due to receive another 21 units in something over 1271 days - with no combat units in that 21.

There were six infantry units on the West Coast, and San Fran, for example, was due to receive around 39 units over the next six months. The breakdown of units in the West Coast was: Seattle - 9, Portland - 1, USA - 1, San Fran - 13, LA - 7, San Diego - 7

I started the game and let everything start moving. On the first turn, the closest Japanese TF made it as far as Adak Island in the Aleutians on its way to Seattle. After that I had to wait for normal sailing.

As "advertised", when the Chinese units reached Hanoi three "VM" units appeared, each in a different Indo-China base.

When the Japanese units crossed the river into the Soviet Union, they attacked. I checked all the Soviet bases and no new units appeared. I then checked the Ground Reinforcement screens and the existing 21 reinforcements were still set to arrive in 1260+ days - only the incremental change due to the day-clock.

I then tried an invasion of Ohka-Sakhalin to see if the capture of a base made a difference. It didn't.

In the meanwhile, the Invasion transports sailed onwards. Oddly enough, even with all Allied planes set to "Training = 0" the Allied player knew exactly where the lead Japanese convoy was all the time.

Finally, on December 18 the first invasion TF reached Seattle. I had deliberately pulled all troops out of Seattle and only the CD unit was there. The invasion fleet took a number of hits from mines, but the CD did surprisingly little damage, particularly when you consider that all I had there were APs with no escorts.

On December 19 I had the invading troops shock attack Seattle. Suddenly a swarm of US planes attacked the Japanese ships, sinking 4 of them. But it was too late and the invaders easily captured Seattle, destroying 450 planes on the ground and causing all of the ships, including the BB, to be scuttled.

I couldn't figure out at first why those planes weren't on "Training" , until I realized that they had come as advanced reinforcements too. Reinforcements come with a "standard setting" of Naval attack. I checked the various US bases and the next six month's worth of land and air reinforcements had arrived at their specified locations. Unfortunately for Seattle, no land units had been scheduled to arrive there.

So in summary, I observed the following effects upon invasion initiation of advanced reinforcements:

1 - If Chinese troops invade Indo-China, the Japanese get three more "VM" divisions at various bases in Indo-China.

2 - If Japanese troops invade the Soviet Union, the Soviets do not get more troops or planes, nor do they get their reinforcements advanced.

3 - If Japanese troops invade the West Coast of the US the US gets the next six month's worth of troops and planes that are scheduled to arrive at the West Coast bases. (No "National Guard" troops appear out of the blue like the "VM" divisions.)

I have the last couple of saves of the head-to-head available if anyone wants to look at them. Just PM me and we arrange the details of where to ship them.

Dave Baranyi

[treespider]

Guess I won't be invading Seattle anytime soon [;)]

[esteban]

Yeah, this is pretty much the way it works.

Moral of the story--stay away from the West Coast (except with the odd KB raid if you are into that thing)

[Monter_Trismegistos]

I think when you move farther into Indochina you will get 4th VM division.

You could by the way also try invading Japan to see if militia units will appear.

[pauk]

no, militia divisions in Japan do not arrive if you invade HI before 1st January 45... (if that is what you wanted to know)

[VSWG]

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

3 - If Japanese troops invade the West Coast of the US the US gets the next six month's worth of troops and planes that are scheduled to arrive at the West Coast bases. (No "National Guard" troops appear out of the blue like the "VM" divisions.)

What happens to troops and planes with a delay > 6 months? Will they arrive six months earlier, too?

Thanks for testing.

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: VSWG

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

3 - If Japanese troops invade the West Coast of the US the US gets the next six month's worth of troops and planes that are scheduled to arrive at the West Coast bases. (No "National Guard" troops appear out of the blue like the "VM" divisions.)

What happens to troops and planes with a delay > 6 months? Will they arrive six months earlier, too?

Thanks for testing.

Yes - all all Air and Land reinforcements that are destined for the West Coast have been moved up in the schedule by 6 months. So, for example, the first Liberator group is now due in 90 days (from December 19).

Thanks for the comments -

Dave Baranyi

[tabpub]

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

ORIGINAL: VSWG

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

3 - If Japanese troops invade the West Coast of the US the US gets the next six month's worth of troops and planes that are scheduled to arrive at the West Coast bases. (No "National Guard" troops appear out of the blue like the "VM" divisions.)

What happens to troops and planes with a delay > 6 months? Will they arrive six months earlier, too?

Thanks for testing.

Yes - all all Air and Land reinforcements that are destined for the West Coast have been moved up in the schedule by 6 months. So, for example, the first Liberator group is now due in 90 days (from December 19).

Thanks for the comments -

Dave Baranyi

Dave:
You are not quite correct here. While nothing is created "out of the blue", a division or 2 from the "far future" arrive to bolster the defense; at least, that is what I saw during Mogami's Adventure.

[ADavidB]

You are not quite correct here. While nothing is created "out of the blue", a division or 2 from the "far future" arrive to bolster the defense; at least, that is what I saw during Mogami's Adventure.

I certainly received more than a "divison or two"... I got a more than 30 different land units and a dozen or so air units. Would you like a copy of the head-to-head file so that you can see for yourself? I can send you a "before" version too.

Dave Baranyi

[VSWG]

I think what tabpub means is that all reinforcements arrive 6 months earlier plus the arrival of some divisions is even more accelerated.

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: VSWG

I think what tabpub means is that all reinforcements arrive 6 months earlier plus the arrival of some divisions is even more accelerated.

That could be... I was too tired [>:] (lazy? [;)] ) to check it out in that much detail. Is there a listing or Excel spreadsheet anywhere where I can easily compare what reinforcements are supposed to arrive versus what I got?

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi

[Naskra]

To conquer the US (against the AI):
Land at Prince Rupert and take it.  This will not trigger the accelerated reinforcemnts.
Move to Vancouver; the Allied reinforcemnts will come when you enter hex x=132.
Take Vancouver, then Portland.  leave Seattle unmolested. Move on the base called "United States".
The 5000 resources there will supply your invasion. Take Los Angeles, then San Diego. Then go to
San Francisco.  Bring reinforcements through Prince Rupert.  Do not interfere with allied shipping
out of SF (let them ship out to Pearl). 
It can be done by early 43.

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: Naskra

To conquer the US (against the AI):
Land at Prince Rupert and take it.  This will not trigger the accelerated reinforcemnts.
Move to Vancouver; the Allied reinforcemnts will come when you enter hex x=132.
Take Vancouver, then Portland.  leave Seattle unmolested. Move on the base called "United States".
The 5000 resources there will supply your invasion. Take Los Angeles, then San Diego. Then go to
San Francisco.  Bring reinforcements through Prince Rupert.  Do not interfere with allied shipping
out of SF (let them ship out to Pearl). 
It can be done by early 43.

The 10000 victory points at "United States" will win you the game if you grab it in 1942... that's why I'm surprised that more Japanese players don't try it in PBEM.

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi

[pauk]

because we aren't THAT evil[:D]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Naskra

To conquer the US (against the AI):
Land at Prince Rupert and take it.  This will not trigger the accelerated reinforcemnts.
Move to Vancouver; the Allied reinforcemnts will come when you enter hex x=132.
Take Vancouver, then Portland.  leave Seattle unmolested. Move on the base called "United States".
The 5000 resources there will supply your invasion. Take Los Angeles, then San Diego. Then go to
San Francisco.  Bring reinforcements through Prince Rupert.  Do not interfere with allied shipping
out of SF (let them ship out to Pearl). 
It can be done by early 43.

Gee...how gamey is this move?[8|] Don't guys understand that these are basically theoretical bases and are a result of the maps limitations are should be off limits? Same with Karachi (plus Aden and Panama in CHS).

[pauk]

Ron, shhhhh...you don't need to "kill" my next victory - i will do that aginst Speedy[:D]

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: Naskra

To conquer the US (against the AI):
Land at Prince Rupert and take it.  This will not trigger the accelerated reinforcemnts.
Move to Vancouver; the Allied reinforcemnts will come when you enter hex x=132.
Take Vancouver, then Portland.  leave Seattle unmolested. Move on the base called "United States".
The 5000 resources there will supply your invasion. Take Los Angeles, then San Diego. Then go to
San Francisco.  Bring reinforcements through Prince Rupert.  Do not interfere with allied shipping
out of SF (let them ship out to Pearl). 
It can be done by early 43.

This isn't a bug but it never should be allowed.

NO WAY, NO HOW...in any realm of reality would this be possible.

Flipper

P.S. If the japs take Denver the best solution is to have Nimitz class CVNs become available (with full air wings) AND one Godzilla and one Mothra attached to all Marine Divisions.

And throw in some B-52s (who needs islands to bomb Japan).

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: pauk

because we aren't THAT evil[:D]

Is it "Saint Pauk" now? [;)] [:D]

[ADavidB]

Gee...how gamey is this move? Don't guys understand that these are basically theoretical bases and are a result of the maps limitations are should be off limits? Same with Karachi (plus Aden and Panama in CHS).

You know, Ron, the one I really wonder about is the "United States" base. Why did GG put it there? No forces or supplies come through there. It's not needed for travel or anything. It's almost as if GG wanted to have Yamamoto's idea of "Signing a peace treaty on the steps of the Congress" possible in the game.

Dave Baranyi

[Naskra]

Calm down guys, the scheme is only viable against the AI, thanks to its strategic blindness.
I did it in a game where I set myself the goal of wiping every last allied unit off the map.  Never
finished that game -- the siege of Pearl Harbor just got too tedious. Also I knew the game would crash
if the # of allied units got too low. Convinced it can be done, though.
 
Obviously the bases are laid out the way they are because at some early conception of the game there
was to be an Allied production system to mirrror the Japanese.  As we all know, the program was published
well before its beta stage and this never came to be.