Matrix Games Forums

Command gets Wargame of the Year EditionDeal of the Week: Pandora SeriesPandora: Eclipse of Nashira is now availableDistant Worlds Gets another updateHell is Approaching Deal of the Week Battle Academy Battle Academy 2 Out now!Legions of Steel ready for betaBattle Academy 2 gets trailers and Steam page!Deal of the Week Germany at War
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka??

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Scenario Design >> CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/2/2006 7:49:08 AM   
treespider


Posts: 9786
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
I saw this discussion briefly on the main forum - why in the world was the 56th brigade placed in the Home islands?

From this website:

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:NmtIB3fMoZ4J:https://restricted.mcu.usmc.mil/utm/kogun.txt+Sakaguchi+Detachment+Davao&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=8

quote:

"The Southern Army was deployed as follows on the eve of the War: Fourteenth Army: Advance units on Formosa and Palau. Main body on Formosa and Amami-Oshima [in the northern Ryukyus]. Fifteenth Army: Main part of Imperial Guard Division in South French Indo-China. (This division was scheduled to enter Thailand, under command of the Fifteenth Army.) Fifteenth Army Headquarters and the 55th Division were in French Indo-China; the 33d Division, in Central China. 34 PREPARATIONS Sixteenth Army: Sakaguchi Detachment on Palau; other elements principally in the Japanese homeland."


From the combined fleet website tabular movement for CL Jintsu:

quote:

6 December 1941: Operation "M" - The Attack on the Southern Philippines:
Rear Admiral (later Vice Admiral) Kubo Kyuji's (former CO of KAGA) Fourth Surprise Attack Force's seven transports depart Palau for planned landings at Davao and Legaspi. The convoy is escorted by the light cruiser NAGARA, DesDiv 24's YAMAKAZE, SUZUKAZE and the UMIKAZE and DesDiv 16's TOKITSUKAZE.

DesRon 2's JINTSU and DesDiv 15's HAYASHIO, NATSUSHIO, OYASHIO and the KUROSHIO, DesDiv 16's YUKIKAZE, HATSUKAZE and the AMATSUKAZE and DesDiv 20's ASAGIRI provide cover. The covering force also includes Rear Admiral (Admiral posthumously) Takagi Takeo's (former CO of MUTSU) CruDiv 5's NACHI, MYOKO and the HAGURO.

The light carrier RYUJO, escorted by the destroyer SHIOKAZE, and CarDiv 11's seaplane carriers CHITOSE and the MIZUHO provide air cover.

10 December 1941:
The JINTSU and DesDiv 15's HAYASHIO and the NATSUSHIO are detached from Kubo's force to escort MineDiv 17's minelayer YAEYAMA.

10-11 December 1941:
The YAEYAMA lays 133 mines in the Surigao Strait.

12 December 1941: The Invasion of Legaspi, Luzon.
Early in the morning, about 2,500 men of MajGen Kimura Naoki's 16th Infantry Division's 33rd Infantry Regiment, a battery of the 22d Field Artillery and engineer detachments accompanied by 575 men of the Kure No. 1 Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) land at Legaspi without opposition. By 0900 hours, the airfield is secured.

DesRon 2's JINTSU with DesDiv 15 and DesDiv 16 and Takagi's CruDiv 5 provide distant cover. The RYUJO, escorted by the destroyer SHIOKAZE, provides air cover.

14 December 1941:
The JINTSU arrives at Kossol Roads, Palau.

17 December 1941: Operation "M" - The Attack on the Southern Philippines:
At 1400, Tanaka's Southern Philippines Attack Force of 14 transports departs Palau carrying MajGen Sakaguchi Shizou's 56th Regimental Group, the Kure No. 2 SNLF and a naval airfield maintenance unit. Close escort is provided by Tanaka's JINTSU and DesDivs 15 and 16. Takagi's CruDiv 5 provide distant cover, while air cover for the convoy is provided by the RYUJO and the CHITOSE.


Why would the Japanese load the brigade in the home Islands to sail to palau to immediately depart to attack Davao?

Other sources seem to also place the unit in Palau, including Joe's previously cited book by Gordon L. Rottman - Japanese Army in World War II

as well as

The fall of the Phillipines - US ARMY in WWII series.

< Message edited by treespider -- 7/2/2006 7:54:06 AM >


_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
Post #: 1
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/2/2006 8:27:47 AM   
Brad Hunter


Posts: 1360
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline
It appears that the 56th Brigade was a part of the 16th Army, initially in Kyushu:

http://niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/41-12-08_army/southern/army_016.html

...and was a part of the Davao Invasion Unit:

http://niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/41-12-08_ops_02/so_unit-davao_02.html

...known as the "Sakaguchi Deatchment:"

http://niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/41-12-08_ops_02/army_brig_56.html

< Message edited by Brad Hunter -- 7/2/2006 8:28:17 AM >

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 2
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/2/2006 9:01:00 AM   
treespider


Posts: 9786
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

It appears that the 56th Brigade was a part of the 16th Army, initially in Kyushu:

http://niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/41-12-08_army/southern/army_016.html

...and was a part of the Davao Invasion Unit:

http://niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/41-12-08_ops_02/so_unit-davao_02.html

...known as the "Sakaguchi Deatchment:"

http://niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/41-12-08_ops_02/army_brig_56.html



And Saburo Hayashi in collaboration with Alvin Coox place the Sakaguchi Detachment on Palau on the "eve of war." (The website I first quoted.)

Nine days after the start of the war the Sakaguchi Detachment is on 14 ships departing Palau. Acording to Combined Fleets record of movement for CL Jintsu.

On page 61 of Rottmans book the Sakaguchi Detachment is " ,launched from the Palaus,..."

On page 112 of the THE FALL OF THE PHILLIPINES, US ARMY in WWII series "This combined force was under 16th Army control, although the date of departure from Palau was set by 14th Army headquarters in Formosa."



_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Brad Hunter)
Post #: 3
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/2/2006 3:06:35 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10262
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: San Jose, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

It appears that the 56th Brigade was a part of the 16th Army, initially in Kyushu:

http://niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/41-12-08_army/southern/army_016.html

...and was a part of the Davao Invasion Unit:

http://niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/41-12-08_ops_02/so_unit-davao_02.html

...known as the "Sakaguchi Deatchment:"

http://niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/41-12-08_ops_02/army_brig_56.html



And Saburo Hayashi in collaboration with Alvin Coox place the Sakaguchi Detachment on Palau on the "eve of war." (The website I first quoted.)

Nine days after the start of the war the Sakaguchi Detachment is on 14 ships departing Palau. Acording to Combined Fleets record of movement for CL Jintsu.

On page 61 of Rottmans book the Sakaguchi Detachment is " ,launched from the Palaus,..."

On page 112 of the THE FALL OF THE PHILLIPINES, US ARMY in WWII series "This combined force was under 16th Army control, although the date of departure from Palau was set by 14th Army headquarters in Formosa."




Treespider. there is no question that the 56th Bde departed from Palau on the 17th of Dec. The question is when did it first arrive there. So three of your 4 sentences are addressing the departure from Palau's on the 17th, not the positioning of the 56th on the 8th. Coox's translation of Hayashi p35 in my edition, does say Sakaguchi Det was on Palau on the eve of war as you say, but there are no details, is this just the I/33rd I.R. (also a part of Sakaguchi) or is it the entire the 56th Bde, we can "guess" but we can't be sure. Dr. Leo does (for better or worse) say the 56th Bde itself was aboard the Home Islands. I'd call it a draw on those two. We could possibly move the ships back to home waters as we have discussed, or we could have the 56th Bde appear as a reinforcement, as we have discussed. But until we can get more data, I don't think we can say we are sure where the unit was on 8 Dec. Perhaps it was at sea enroute !?






_____________________________

AE Project Lead

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 4
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/2/2006 3:35:35 PM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 4874
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
We could possibly move the ships back to home waters as we have discussed, or we could have the 56th Bde appear as a reinforcement, as we have discussed. But until we can get more data, I don't think we can say we are sure where the unit was on 8 Dec.


FWIW, my preference out of those two choices is currently the former.

quote:

Perhaps it was at sea enroute !?


I was wondering myself if that might be the explanation.

Andrew

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 5
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/2/2006 4:05:11 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9786
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
We could possibly move the ships back to home waters as we have discussed, or we could have the 56th Bde appear as a reinforcement, as we have discussed. But until we can get more data, I don't think we can say we are sure where the unit was on 8 Dec.


FWIW, my preference out of those two choices is currently the former.

quote:

Perhaps it was at sea enroute !?


I was wondering myself if that might be the explanation.

Andrew



My preference would be to move the ships to Fukuoka, short of finding conclusive documentation (which I'll keep working on...)


< Message edited by treespider -- 7/2/2006 4:06:03 PM >


_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 6
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/2/2006 11:51:58 PM   
Mike Tremblay


Posts: 651
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Vernon, B.C., Canada
Status: offline
There is a lot of confusion here which is directly a result of how the Japanese used their forces and how the disposition of these forces is depicted by various sources.

The 56th Infantry Brigade that is depicted in the game is actually a detachment of the 56th Division, better known as the Sakaguchi Detachment. It consisted of one regiment from the 56th Division (the 146th Infantry), a tankette unit from the division and one battalion of divisional artillery along with other supporting troops. Major-General Sakaguchi was the Commander. It was positioned in Palau on December 8th (Asia time) and departed from Palau for Davao on December 17th. It was under the command of the 16th Army although its departure from Palau was set by the 14th Army (which was responsible for the Phillipines) - the reason for this is that the landings at Davao were to set up bases for the operations of the 16th Army in the Dutch East Indies. It continued on to land at Jolo then on to Borneo and Java.

The 56th Brigade positioned in Japan at Kurume, Kyushu in Niehorster's ORBAT as part of the 16th Army is probably a mistake and should be the 56th Division (-) (which in Niehorster's is part of the 25th Army and in the same location), since under the lisitings for Independant Brigades there is nothing for the 56th Brigade nor is there any 56th Brigade listed for the Japanese Square Divisions. There may actually have been a 56th Brigade but I can find no evidence of its existance other than the one listing in Niehorster.

The Japanese 56th Division (minus the Sakaguchi Detachment) was in Japan on December 8th and the Sakaguchi Detachment rejoined the division in April 1942 at Rangoon. As far as I can tell the 56th Division stayed in Japan until it was moved directly to Burma.



_____________________________

I never blame myself when I'm not hitting. I just blame the bat and if it keeps up, I change bats. After all, if I know it isn't my fault that I'm not hitting, how can I get mad at myself?
Yogi Berra

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 7
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/3/2006 12:04:05 AM   
treespider


Posts: 9786
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Tremblay

There is a lot of confusion here which is directly a result of how the Japanese used their forces and how the disposition of these forces is depicted by various sources.

The 56th Infantry Brigade that is depicted in the game is actually a detachment of the 56th Division, better known as the Sakaguchi Detachment. It consisted of one regiment from the 56th Division (the 146th Infantry), a tankette unit from the division and one battalion of divisional artillery along with other supporting troops. Major-General Sakaguchi was the Commander. It was positioned in Palau on December 8th (Asia time) and departed from Palau for Davao on December 17th. It was under the command of the 16th Army although its departure from Palau was set by the 14th Army (which was responsible for the Phillipines) - the reason for this is that the landings at Davao were to set up bases for the operations of the 16th Army in the Dutch East Indies. It continued on to land at Jolo then on to Borneo and Java.

The 56th Brigade positioned in Japan at Kurume, Kyushu in Niehorster's ORBAT as part of the 16th Army is probably a mistake and should be the 56th Division (-) (which in Niehorster's is part of the 25th Army and in the same location), since under the lisitings for Independant Brigades there is nothing for the 56th Brigade nor is there any 56th Brigade listed for the Japanese Square Divisions. There may actually have been a 56th Brigade but I can find no evidence of its existance other than the one listing in Niehorster.

The Japanese 56th Division (minus the Sakaguchi Detachment) was in Japan on December 8th and the Sakaguchi Detachment rejoined the division in April 1942 at Rangoon. As far as I can tell the 56th Division stayed in Japan until it was moved directly to Burma.





What is your source?


_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Mike Tremblay)
Post #: 8
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/3/2006 12:15:16 AM   
Mike Tremblay


Posts: 651
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Vernon, B.C., Canada
Status: offline
Most my sources involve Niehorster's site with some interpretation from other written and online sources when I have doubts about the accuracy of his lists.

In this case I've used a combination of a copy of 'The West Point Military History Series' covering Asia and the Pacific, and this site http://www.army.mil/CMH/books/wwii/5-2/5-2_6.htm

Under Niehorster's site you can find the composition of the invasion forces for Davao http://niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/41-12-08_ops_02/so_unit-davao_02.html

and the composition of the Triangular Divisions http://niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/41-12-08_army/ija_ground-units/_3-rgt_organization.html

Square Divisions http://niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/41-12-08_army/ija_ground-units/_4-rgt_organization.html

and Independant Brigades http://niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/41-12-08_army/ija_ground-units/_imb_organization.html



_____________________________

I never blame myself when I'm not hitting. I just blame the bat and if it keeps up, I change bats. After all, if I know it isn't my fault that I'm not hitting, how can I get mad at myself?
Yogi Berra

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 9
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/3/2006 3:18:23 AM   
Mifune


Posts: 776
Joined: 4/28/2005
From: Florida
Status: offline
Niehorster offers quite a bit of information, though I do agree with Mike that some interpretation is needed. To solidify Mikes case look at the other initial invasions and see how those detachments are formed. You will see that Mike does make the most sense with a convoluted situation. The initial and secondary operations can be confusing till one looks at them one step at a time till you see the whole picture.

_____________________________

Perennial Remedial Student of the Mike Solli School of Economics. One day I might graduate.

(in reply to Mike Tremblay)
Post #: 10
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/3/2006 4:20:33 PM   
Brad Hunter


Posts: 1360
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline
More Confusion:

The following is from "The Japanese Order of Battle in World War II," by John Underwood, Jr.:

Volume I:

56th Infantry Division
"The division was activated at Kurume, Japan in August, 1940. It participated in the landings on Mindinao, Philippines. Then it was transferred to Java, and by May, 1942 was identified in Burma where it remained until the end of the war."

113th, 146th, 148th Infantry Regiments
56th Tankette Co.
56th Recon Rgt.
56th FA Rgt.
56th Engineer Rgt.
(+ Divisional Support Units)

Volume III:

Sakaguchi Detachment
"The detachment was formed on or about 19 December 1941 for operations on Davao and Mindanao, Philippines. Part of the Davao Attack Force."

1 regiment/56th Independent Mixed Brigade

Volume II:

56th Independent Mixed Brigade
"The independent mixed brigade was supported by the Himeji Depot, Japan. It was activated in North Borneo in July 1944."

366th-371st Independent Infantry Battalions
56th Independent Mixed Brigade Artillery Unit
56th Independent Mixed Brigade Engineer Unit
56th Independent Mixed Brigade Signals Unit

I think that it is clear the Underwood is in error, and that the Sakaguchi Detachment was, in fact, a unit made up of components of the 56th Infantry Division. I would be inclined to accept Dr. Niehorster's information, above all.

Brad





(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 11
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/3/2006 4:48:12 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9786
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
There is no confusion about the Sakaguchi Detachment being a part of the 56th Division....it is sometimes refered to as the 56th Brigade, it is sometimes listed as the 56th Infantry group and other times it is referred to as the Sakaguchi Detachment.

What is in question is the location of this unit on December 7/8. I had been under the impression that this unit was in Palau on Dec7/8 and was surprised to se it moved to Japan. However there are some sources that give its location on Dec 7/8 - Niehorster places it in Japan and Hayashi and Rottman (who used Hayashi as a source) places it on Palau. All of the other sources offer anecdotal evience but nothing clear-cut as to the location of the unit on Dec 7/8.

Underwood is clearly wrong as the Sakaguchi Detachment was loaded on transports and departed Palau on December 17...arriving at Davao on Dec 20.

It is possible the unit was in Japan on dec 7/8 and loaded very shoirtly thereafter to arrive at Palau prior to dec 17 from where it is known to have departed. - This is the niehorster scenario.

It is possible the unit is in Palau on Dec7/8 - this is the Hayashi scenario.

It is also possible the unit was loaded on transports enroute to Palau on Dec 7/8. -A meld of the two...

What we are looking for is a definitve record of where the unit was on Dec 7/8.

IMO it should be Palau.


_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Brad Hunter)
Post #: 12
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/3/2006 7:06:07 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 15013
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
You can look in the official history. Provided you can find a copy and that you can read it - both less than easy to do. [The history runs more than 100 volumes and has never been translated. It is boring reading as well - but contains remarkable gems - such as identifying 3 divisions who were supposed to invade Oahu in 1942 if Midway went as planned.] Or you can ask the National Diet Library in English - and a retired JLSDF officer will answer - in English of a sort (just don't expect it to pass your English teacher's requirements).

For what it is worth, every map or document I have says it began at Palau - unless there is something I don't remember. It is physically possible for it not to have been, and of course the unit's origins are on Kyushu - so the alternate location is plausable. Sailing time between the two locations is about a week - so there is sufficient time. We do have a resident Japanese IJA scholar - so maybe he will chime in?

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 13
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/5/2006 12:01:46 AM   
Lemurs!


Posts: 788
Joined: 6/1/2004
Status: offline
I have it placed in Palau in my scenario. Dr. Niehorster is pulling the majority of his data from Stargames co. and i do not know where Stargames sourced their info from. So while i like Niehorsters site i tend to take it with a grain of salt.

Palau.

Mike


_____________________________



(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 14
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/5/2006 12:08:12 AM   
treespider


Posts: 9786
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
Stargames???

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Lemurs!)
Post #: 15
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/5/2006 3:39:39 AM   
Mike Tremblay


Posts: 651
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Vernon, B.C., Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

Stargames???

quote:

Dr. Niehorster is pulling the majority of his data from Stargames co. and i do not know where Stargames sourced their info from. So while i like Niehorsters site i tend to take it with a grain of salt.


Stargames is a group which was developing "Pacific Tide" - an earlier version of WITP which is vapourware as far as I know. Their site is still alive but all development of their game has halted - last site update was June 2002. ( http://www.star-games.com/ )

Their Digital Histories Volume 3 (on CD) titled "Sword of the Emperor" details the disposition of Japanese forces on December 8th (Dec 7th in North America). If I recall correctly the research was done by the site's author, Martin Favorite, from Japanese Documents which were translated by a Japanese gentleman for Martin - he explained it all when he first started the site but that explanation is unfortunately gone from his site now. He also credits Nafziger's collection. Niehorster apparently had access to Favorite's data and that is listed in Niehorster's sources and links. I don't know if the CD is still available, I haven't tried contacting him - give it a shot, you might be lucky.

_____________________________

I never blame myself when I'm not hitting. I just blame the bat and if it keeps up, I change bats. After all, if I know it isn't my fault that I'm not hitting, how can I get mad at myself?
Yogi Berra

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 16
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/5/2006 8:25:18 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 4874
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

I have it placed in Palau in my scenario. Dr. Niehorster is pulling the majority of his data from Stargames co. and i do not know where Stargames sourced their info from. So while i like Niehorsters site i tend to take it with a grain of salt.

Palau.

Mike



If it goes back to Palau in CHS, does there need to be anyh modification to the Japanese shipping?

(in reply to Lemurs!)
Post #: 17
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/5/2006 3:11:48 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9786
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

I have it placed in Palau in my scenario. Dr. Niehorster is pulling the majority of his data from Stargames co. and i do not know where Stargames sourced their info from. So while i like Niehorsters site i tend to take it with a grain of salt.

Palau.

Mike



If it goes back to Palau in CHS, does there need to be anyh modification to the Japanese shipping?



It appears the correct ships are at Palau vis-a-vis the ones that departed Palau on the 17th carrying the Sakaguchi Detachment (or 56th BDE if you prefer).


_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 18
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/5/2006 4:04:18 PM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 4874
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
If it goes back to Palau in CHS, does there need to be anyh modification to the Japanese shipping?


I think I need to point out that this question does not mean that I have decided to move the 56 Bde to Palau. I was just wondering if there was a consensus yet. I will leave this discussion to the experts.

Andrew

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 19
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/5/2006 5:00:03 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1775
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

It appears the correct ships are at Palau vis-a-vis the ones that departed Palau on the 17th carrying the Sakaguchi Detachment (or 56th BDE if you prefer).



Sakaguchi Detachment and Miura Detachment were transported on Army Transports Hankow, Havana, Hiteru, Kanko, Kuretake, Liverpool, Teiryu, and Yamatsuki Maru in the Davao operation.

In the CHS ship database, only Havana, Liverpool, and Teiryu Maru are present at Palau at start. Yamatsuki Maru is missing in the database and the rest starts at various ports in Japan (Kanko Maru at Amami).

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 20
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/5/2006 5:03:24 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9786
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

It appears the correct ships are at Palau vis-a-vis the ones that departed Palau on the 17th carrying the Sakaguchi Detachment (or 56th BDE if you prefer).



Sakaguchi Detachment and Miura Detachment were transported on Army Transports Hankow, Havana, Hiteru, Kanko, Kuretake, Liverpool, Teiryu, and Yamatsuki Maru in the Davao operation.

In the CHS ship database, only Havana, Liverpool, and Teiryu Maru are present at Palau at start. Yamatsuki Maru is missing in the database and the rest starts at various ports in Japan (Kanko Maru at Amami).



Thanks! I stupidly posted my reply after I saw the ships you listed...Evidently they are not correctly positioned.

In researching this (and I am at work at the moment and away from my sources) is CL Jintsu at Palau? IIRC I think in stock it is involved in the Malaya operation...whereas it should be at palau with iirc Desron 2

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 21
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/5/2006 5:47:33 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1775
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

There is no confusion about the Sakaguchi Detachment being a part of the 56th Division....it is sometimes refered to as the 56th Brigade, it is sometimes listed as the 56th Infantry group and other times it is referred to as the Sakaguchi Detachment.


Simply to make this clear once and for all: Major-General Sakaguchi was the Infantry Commander of the 56th Division. The position of "Infantry Commander" in Japanese divisions was a carryover from the old (pre-war) brigade structure of Japanese divisions. The Infantry Commanders and their staffs (in divisions were this position still existed) were eventually used in the formation of new unist (mostly "Expeditionary Units" and "Independent Mixed Brigades"). There was no 56th Brigade and their is no connection to the 56th Independent Mixed Brigade formed in 1944.

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
What is in question is the location of this unit on December 7/8. I had been under the impression that this unit was in Palau on Dec7/8 and was surprised to se it moved to Japan. However there are some sources that give its location on Dec 7/8 - Niehorster places it in Japan and Hayashi and Rottman (who used Hayashi as a source) places it on Palau. All of the other sources offer anecdotal evience but nothing clear-cut as to the location of the unit on Dec 7/8.


Yup, this is the question.


quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
It is possible the unit was in Japan on dec 7/8 and loaded very shoirtly thereafter to arrive at Palau prior to dec 17 from where it is known to have departed. - This is the niehorster scenario.

It is possible the unit is in Palau on Dec7/8 - this is the Hayashi scenario.

It is also possible the unit was loaded on transports enroute to Palau on Dec 7/8. -A meld of the two...

What we are looking for is a definitve record of where the unit was on Dec 7/8.

IMO it should be Palau.




As we still don't have a definitive record some points against the Palau version:

Because the Sakaguchi Detachment belonged to the 56th Division (which was part of 25th Army and went to Malaya/Burma) it seems that it was diverted to other tasks because the forces of 16th Army were not strong enough for the tasks given to it. 2nd Division (then the only division of 16th Army) was still on Honshu on Dec 7th. The question is: Why? Answers could be (a) lack of shipping or (b) if major combat units (regiments and above) would have been moved before the outbreak of the war from Japan, the Allies could have been alerted. Ostensibly it is difficult to cover the movement of large formations in peacetime. The Malaya and Luzon operations originally included formations that were located in Indochina. Many (big) formations that took part in the occupation of the SRA/PI/Malaya were still in China and/or Japan on Dec 7th.


(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 22
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/5/2006 6:08:02 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9786
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
IMO it doesn't necessarily matter to me if it starts in Japan or in Palau or on ship enroute...However if it is placed in Japan it needs to be co-located with shipping...in particularly if played with a historical first turn.

As it stand now I do not believe there is enough shipping in Fukuoka to load the 56th on Dec 8th and move it to Palau in time to depart on Decmeber 17th.



< Message edited by treespider -- 7/5/2006 6:09:07 PM >


_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 23
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/6/2006 9:31:47 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10262
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: San Jose, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

IMO it doesn't necessarily matter to me if it starts in Japan or in Palau or on ship enroute...However if it is placed in Japan it needs to be co-located with shipping...in particularly if played with a historical first turn.

As it stand now I do not believe there is enough shipping in Fukuoka to load the 56th on Dec 8th and move it to Palau in time to depart on Decmeber 17th.




I did run a test. Played the historical start, and THEN ran some transports to Fukuoka and loaded up ... managed to arrive Palau PM of 17 Dec in game dates. But remember what the game calls 17 Dec is really 18 Dec west of the IDL. But if Andrew wants to position some boats there I have no problem with that. Clearly they would've been there !





_____________________________

AE Project Lead

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 24
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/7/2006 12:58:16 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 15013
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
Yamatsuki Maru will be in all RHS scenarios from 4.04 - which regretfully may release soon - if we get this carrier air group stuff sorted fully.

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 25
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/7/2006 1:02:23 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 15013
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
Kereguelen is more or less correct - except that the position of infantry group commander remained in divisions - and never went away. There is a similar office in many armies. And we know there was no 56th brigade as such - but Joe needed a convenient shorthand and this one is found in many histories. We cannot type out that long name in our database!

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 26
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/7/2006 2:05:24 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 4874
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

IMO it doesn't necessarily matter to me if it starts in Japan or in Palau or on ship enroute...However if it is placed in Japan it needs to be co-located with shipping...in particularly if played with a historical first turn.

As it stand now I do not believe there is enough shipping in Fukuoka to load the 56th on Dec 8th and move it to Palau in time to depart on Decmeber 17th.




Does anyone have a list already compiled of which ships should be co-located with the 56th if this is done?

Thanks,
Andrew

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 27
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/7/2006 3:12:26 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10262
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: San Jose, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

IMO it doesn't necessarily matter to me if it starts in Japan or in Palau or on ship enroute...However if it is placed in Japan it needs to be co-located with shipping...in particularly if played with a historical first turn.

As it stand now I do not believe there is enough shipping in Fukuoka to load the 56th on Dec 8th and move it to Palau in time to depart on Decmeber 17th.




Does anyone have a list already compiled of which ships should be co-located with the 56th if this is done?

Thanks,
Andrew


Note that it doesn't always work to use the real ships (might / might not) I've tried it and failed miserably a few times. Seems like the Japanese were fond of using ships the game calls "AK" as assault transport ... but I guess they didn't read the manual !
But both Jon Parshall and Dr. Leo have at least some of the ships listed, not sure they have them all. But you just need enough to carry the unit, but make sure you test !



_____________________________

AE Project Lead

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 28
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/7/2006 3:45:39 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 4874
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
But both Jon Parshall and Dr. Leo have at least some of the ships listed, not sure they have them all. But you just need enough to carry the unit, but make sure you test !


OK. I will do that.

I had a quick look at Niehorster's site but couldn't find the ships, but Kereguelen posted this above:

quote:

Sakaguchi Detachment and Miura Detachment were transported on Army Transports Hankow, Havana, Hiteru, Kanko, Kuretake, Liverpool, Teiryu, and Yamatsuki Maru in the Davao operation.

In the CHS ship database, only Havana, Liverpool, and Teiryu Maru are present at Palau at start. Yamatsuki Maru is missing in the database and the rest starts at various ports in Japan (Kanko Maru at Amami).


So that is a start, although is seems that there are some missing ships that could be added?

Andrew

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 29
RE: CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? - 7/7/2006 4:19:14 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10262
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: San Jose, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
But both Jon Parshall and Dr. Leo have at least some of the ships listed, not sure they have them all. But you just need enough to carry the unit, but make sure you test !


OK. I will do that.

I had a quick look at Niehorster's site but couldn't find the ships, but Kereguelen posted this above:

quote:

Sakaguchi Detachment and Miura Detachment were transported on Army Transports Hankow, Havana, Hiteru, Kanko, Kuretake, Liverpool, Teiryu, and Yamatsuki Maru in the Davao operation.

In the CHS ship database, only Havana, Liverpool, and Teiryu Maru are present at Palau at start. Yamatsuki Maru is missing in the database and the rest starts at various ports in Japan (Kanko Maru at Amami).


So that is a start, although is seems that there are some missing ships that could be added?

Andrew


It's buried about 8 layers deep

http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/014_japan/41-12-08_ops_02/so_unit-davao_02.html

_____________________________

AE Project Lead

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Scenario Design >> CHS - Jap 56th BDE - Fukuoka?? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.125