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RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range will not fire

 
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RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/28/2006 11:57:29 AM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2159
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: online 		Well, as you can see, the PlayersDB derived the information from H3Db / HUD-II - as an examination of PoK percentages clearly shows. I do not understand why you took the trouble to export all the data to show something that has already been pointed out in this thread.

However, thanks anyway.


< Message edited by hermanhum -- 6/28/2006 11:59:01 AM >

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Home of the PlayersDB - #1 Choice of the Harpoon community

(in reply to Flankerk)
Post #: 31
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/28/2006 12:49:02 PM   
Sunburn


Posts: 243
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		Some more interesting comparisons:




















I see an AWFUL LOT of common things between the DB2000 (a project that has been running since 1996) and the PlayersDB (a DB that appeared out of nowhere last year). In contrast, I see very few common things between the PDB and either the HUD-2 or the original H2AE DB.

The PoK differentiation argument is shallow. Creating the multiple DB records is the hard part (be it by legitimate or illegitimate copying or from scratch). Once that is done, batch-modifying the PoK values is trivial; in fact, it's a 2-minute SQL-script job.

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 2/28/2008 11:24:02 PM >

_____________________________

When you stand before God, you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time". This will not suffice. Remember that.

http://www.warfaresims.com

Dimitris
Warfare Sims

(in reply to hermanhum)
Post #: 32
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/28/2006 1:30:09 PM   
Vincenzo Beretta

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Milan, Italy
Status: offline 		Uhm, another discussion I'm not sure I'm following.

The more modern databases have platforms not included in the older ones. BIG SURPRISE! And I'm not only talking about the fact that new platforms were designed/launched/refitted since the mid 90s, but about the fact that, in ODB, navies like the whole Italian Navy are missing (so much for our shipbuilding tradition). Beside, as in anything reporting facts, I do not see how a copyright or "ownership" could apply. Italy employed F-16s for the first time in the early XXI century. Should the first DB to include Italian F-16s have the "copyright" about this content, while all the others scramble to put other "original planes" (like Italian MiG-29s)? Of course not. Beside, we would all own copyrights to the various sources (reference books, Jane's, news et. al.) we use.

A case, instead, could be made for copyright on *intellectual work*, i.e. the kind of research and active intellectual evaluation that leads one to decide to put "80" in the PK of a certain weapon. While this field could be a good ground for "plagiarism", it is worth mentioning that a vast number of identical entries would be needed for making a good plagiarism case - this because another different DB maintainer can do his ofn research and decide that "80" is a good value for that weapon. What should he do in that case? Put a value that he honestly feels is wrong in the field?

(It is also worth mentioning how the data published on this site showed, if anything, how the results of this kind of intellectual work in PDB are different than the comparable examples in DB2000).

Regarding the "sudden appearance" of the PDB, one of the reasons for it was, I think, the problematic way DB2000 was managed in at leas a short period of his existence - as it is documented elsewhere (links are available for those wishing to check the whole story). These (factual and proved) problems resulted in some third-party scenarios not to work as advertised - with comprehensible dismay from part of the community. Since the DB2000 owner didn't acknowledged the problem (links for those interested) another independent DB was created (something, I might add, that perfectly embodies the spirit of the "if you do not like my work do your own" standard answer).

As a player, I do not have preferences for one DB over the other, but I feel that having a choice is always a good thing, and the two DBs show truly different phylosophies in the portrayal of moder naval warfare - as anyone that tests them both will be able to check.

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(in reply to Sunburn)
Post #: 33
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/28/2006 1:57:53 PM   
Sunburn


Posts: 243
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		You are deliberately sidestepping the issue. We're not talking about any single DB having exclusive presentation of any given platform; that, of course, would be absurd. We're talking about eye-gobbling similarities in _STRUCTURE_. If you see two skyscrapers side-by-side which use the same design on external staircases, the same elevators, the same reception halls, the same emergency exits etc., it doesn't matter if one is painted different that other; the similarities are far too obvious to be ignored in light of the differences.

Another example, closer to your area (since you obviously don't have much luck with DBs).

Let's say poet "Darren" crafts the following short poem:
quote:


I love you because you are beautiful.


Now, poet "Ragnar" takes this poem as a base and, over the span of 10 years, hones it to the following:
quote:


Your lips speak soft sweetness
Your touch a cool caress
I am lost in your magic
My heart beats within your chest

I think of you each morning
And dream of you each night
I think of your arms being around me
And cannot express my delight

Never have I fallen
But I am quickly on my way
You hold a heart in your hands
That has never before been given away

(by Rex A. Williams)



Now, poet "Herman" out of the blue presents the following piece within a short timespan, and claims it is based solely on "Darren" 's work:

quote:


Your lips speak sweet sweetness
Your touch a cool soft caress
I am lost in your great magic
My heart beats inside your chest

I think of you each morning
And dream of you each falling night
I think of your arms being all around me
And cannot express my own delight

Never have I fallen down
But I am fastly on my way here
You hold a heart in your own hands
That has never anywhere before been given away


Notice the subtle changes which preclude any allegation of 1-on-1 copy.

Now, you can either believe that poet "Herman" did indeed painstakingly develop his piece solely on "Darren" 's work. Or you can put two and two together, and conclude to the only reasonable explanation.

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 7/1/2006 4:36:02 PM >

_____________________________

When you stand before God, you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time". This will not suffice. Remember that.

http://www.warfaresims.com

Dimitris
Warfare Sims

(in reply to Vincenzo Beretta)
Post #: 34
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/28/2006 2:01:44 PM   
Vincenzo Beretta

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Milan, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn
The PoK differentiation argument is shallow.


The PoK argument is *VITAL* as is vital the evaluation of weapons' performances in any DB for any game: with unrealistic estimantes you not only have an unrealistic game, but you do break doctrines, are unable to re-create historical events and so on. And giving a good estimate requires work.

quote:


Creating the multiple DB records is the hard part (be it by legitimate or illegitimate copying or from scratch).


True, and luckily for us players there are people out there doing hard work for Harpoon and other games (TOAW, Dangerous Waters, Combat Mission...) Since I sense allegations of plagiarism here re: PDB, do you have some *concrete proof* to offer (beside the - surprising! - fact that all DBs have in common platforms existing in the real world) or they are just that: allegations?

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Post #: 35
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/28/2006 2:16:58 PM   
Sunburn


Posts: 243
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn
The PoK differentiation argument is shallow.

The PoK argument is *VITAL* as is vital the evaluation of weapons' performances in any DB for any game: with unrealistic estimantes you not only have an unrealistic game, but you do break doctrines, are unable to re-create historical events and so on. And giving a good estimate requires work.

WOW, nice sidestepping again Vinnie! (Ever considered a career as mine hunter?) Never said that the PoK values are insignificant. I did say, however, that the argument "well my PoKs are different than yours so I didn't copy your DB records" is weak since, once the job of getting the DB record in place is done (by any means, legit or otherwise), then altering the PoK is a trivial task. Whether the alteration of the PoK is the result of a 2-second whim or 6 months of book-devouring research is irrelevant; the important point is that it is _much_ more demanding to construct an entire platform/sensor/weapon entry (complete with its parent & child associations & entities - an aspect often overlooked!) rather than to change a single PoK value. If you doubt that then try to make up a significant dataset all by yourself and see how long it will take you.

_____________________________

When you stand before God, you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time". This will not suffice. Remember that.

http://www.warfaresims.com

Dimitris
Warfare Sims

(in reply to Vincenzo Beretta)
Post #: 36
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/28/2006 2:19:49 PM   
Vincenzo Beretta

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Milan, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

As usual, you're deliberately missing the point. We're not talking about any single DB having exclusive presentation of any given platform; that, of course, would be absurd. We're talking about eye-gobbling similarities in _STRUCTURE_.


Uhm, at a glance I see that even the entry numbers are different. So, where is this similarity in structure?

quote:


Another example, closer to your area (since you obviously don't have much luck with DBs).


True, my area being both defending against intellectual theft (when publishing) and checking it (when working at the contents for the cover-mount DVD for my magazine

quote:


Let's say poet "Darren" crafts the following short poem:

I love you because you are beautiful.


[Snip on the rest of the literary episode]

Well, good example - a better example for this discussion sake, however, would have involved factual data from the DBs, and not poems.

Beside, even in the shifting world of copyright laws, there are some basic items of public domain. For example, the way a DB for Harpoon is *structured* (note: not "researched") could simply refer to a common starting point (i.e. the structure of the original DB) both for commodity sake and for allow to any third party that wishes to check/contribute to the DB an immediate understanding of its contents, and an easier navigation.

It is also worth mentioning that, had *structure* any intellectual value, then the enties in DB2000 wouldn't have moved around at random in the past, as elsewhere demonstrated.

One last thing, DB is not my field, but comics are. Look at an issue of the X-Men, and look at an issue of Spiderman: same format, same number of pages, same basic structure in the panel's layouts in the page... surprise, they are different creative works.

So, sorry, Dimitris, but there is not enough proof to make a case for plagiarism, here - not even the beginning of it.


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Post #: 37
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/28/2006 2:22:37 PM   
Sunburn


Posts: 243
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta
Since I sense allegations of plagiarism here re: PDB, do you have some *concrete proof* to offer (beside the - surprising! - fact that all DBs have in common platforms existing in the real world) or they are just that: allegations?

The elephant is in front of you in plain sight. Pretend it's not there if you will.

_____________________________

When you stand before God, you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time". This will not suffice. Remember that.

http://www.warfaresims.com

Dimitris
Warfare Sims

(in reply to Vincenzo Beretta)
Post #: 38
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/28/2006 2:26:28 PM   
Sunburn


Posts: 243
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn
As usual, you're deliberately missing the point. We're not talking about any single DB having exclusive presentation of any given platform; that, of course, would be absurd. We're talking about eye-gobbling similarities in _STRUCTURE_.

Uhm, at a glance I see that even the entry numbers are different. So, where is this similarity in structure?

Ask a friend of yours who knows about DBs to tell you why. You are obviously out of your league.

(BTW, check the AI-control units and tell me what you see).

_____________________________

When you stand before God, you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time". This will not suffice. Remember that.

http://www.warfaresims.com

Dimitris
Warfare Sims

(in reply to Vincenzo Beretta)
Post #: 39
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/28/2006 2:30:35 PM   
Sunburn


Posts: 243
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		Vinnie, anyone reading this who has done any bit of serious work with H3's databases (and is not predisposed to your "opinion") can value what I'm saying and what you're saying. I'll let DB-experienced readers be the judge.

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 6/28/2006 2:47:23 PM >

_____________________________

When you stand before God, you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time". This will not suffice. Remember that.

http://www.warfaresims.com

Dimitris
Warfare Sims

(in reply to Sunburn)
Post #: 40
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/28/2006 3:05:57 PM   
Vincenzo Beretta

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Milan, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn
The elephant is in front of you in plain sight. Pretend it's not there if you will.


I do not see elephants here, but pretend that I do if you will

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn
(BTW, check the AI-control units and tell me what you see).


You are talking about the weather balloons [1] used to simulate Oscar-launched SS-N-12s in scenarios branded as "realistic" (where, to se the point straight, were the scenario a truly realistic one the player should be allowed to try to smoke the Oscar with a good ASW screen before she launches) ?

Well, these units are used by scenario designers to simulate a variety of actions by the AI, and to help the artificial opponent to give an enhanced challenge to the human player - they are insterted in DBs at the scenario designers' request. I do not like this workaround - so I wouldn't use them in a scenario designed by me - but some designers do.

To sum it up:

- Proof the one DB plagiarized the other: ZERO
- Factual arguments regarding the fact that "structure" is basis for a plagiarism case, or even that there is a parallelism in structure in the first place: ZERO
- Factual proof that something BEYOND COMMON INTELLECTUAL OWNERSHIP was plagiarized: ZERO

All of this in a off-topic thread. If you have something factual to say, do it in an appropriate thread, but, please, let them be *facts* not allegations, expecially if you are bringing up accuses towards someone.

[1] To those following this discussion, I swear I'm not making this up.

< Message edited by Vincenzo Beretta -- 6/28/2006 3:07:49 PM >

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Post #: 41
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/28/2006 4:16:27 PM   
CV32


Posts: 700
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline 		Why don't you fellas take this fascinating little debate over to Usenet ? (Apologies in advance to all for mentioning THAT place). I hear there are guys who really appreciate this kind of reasoning over there. Just a suggestion, of course. But it might make the job of the Matrix/AGSI support crew a bit easier here.

(in reply to Vincenzo Beretta)
Post #: 42
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/29/2006 7:33:41 PM   
Flankerk

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 6/21/2006
Status: offline 		I'm still waiting for a response from Herman on why the torpedo ranges are so close. I recall the discussion on Harpoon Headquarters about changing the ranges to those we use. I even joined in with it. The ranges then seem to directly get taken into PDB. It is also noticeable that the torpedoes directly agree to entries in DB2000 from PDB but often have no equivalent in Players Databases's "originator" DB the HUD/H2AE.

As mentioned some time before, I look forward to the authors comments.

_____________________________



"Alas poor Yorick,I knew him Horatio"

#1 Quote of the Harpoon Community.

(in reply to CV32)
Post #: 43
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/29/2006 8:02:09 PM   
evaamo2

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		I second CV32... I fail to see how this db intellectual property discussion belongs in the SUPPORT forum...

-E

(in reply to Flankerk)
Post #: 44
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/29/2006 10:22:07 PM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2159
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: online 		Asked and answered here.

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Home of the PlayersDB - #1 Choice of the Harpoon community

(in reply to evaamo2)
Post #: 45
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/29/2006 10:29:21 PM   
Vincenzo Beretta

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Milan, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

Asked and answered here.


And here.

Time to return this section to support, guys.

< Message edited by Vincenzo Beretta -- 6/29/2006 10:36:18 PM >

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(in reply to hermanhum)
Post #: 46
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/29/2006 10:35:30 PM   
Flankerk

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 6/21/2006
Status: offline 		That reply seems to ignore the question about ranges and the entries where there is no equivalent entry in the HUDII/AE Database.

I would like an answer to those specific points.

This question and the queries ( unanswered) on the Players Database somewhat evolved on this thread after Hermans suggestion that I should do some research. As such the findings of that research seem proper here. If it might be better to split this thread and have a separate heading for say "Queries on the Players Database" that might work. However a thread that commenced with a contrived bug seems as good a place as any.

_____________________________



"Alas poor Yorick,I knew him Horatio"

#1 Quote of the Harpoon Community.

(in reply to hermanhum)
Post #: 47
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/29/2006 11:06:17 PM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2159
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: online 		A closer examination of the Radar-Cross-Section and Sound levels, Engines, Sensors, Fuel, and Weapons capability flags will show you how the Maximum Firing Ranges were calculated and any other questions you have.

Also, don't forget to check out the H3DB edited by Fred Galano and the HCDB edited by Brad Leyte since the credits quite explicitly state:

quote:

This database has been built upon the excellent foundations set by the H3DB Project (edited by Fred Galano) which in turn was built on the basis of the HUD-II database (edited by Darren Buckley). It incorporates the data from the Harpoon Classic DB (HCDB) that is edited by Brad Leyte.


It's back to the books with you. How about some comprehensive research this time?

If you are unable to properly use the DB editor, I would leave this job to the DB2k editor, if he feels that it is important. However, I'm sure he appreciates all the hard work you are doing.

You can find the H3DB and the HCDB at:

HarpGamer.com - Home of the HCDB.

However, we are totally Off Topic here - people come to this forum for support - so I agree with the others that you should open a thread elsewhere

_____________________________


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(in reply to Flankerk)
Post #: 48
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/29/2006 11:19:07 PM   
Flankerk

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 6/21/2006
Status: offline 		As the question keeps being evaded, I'll ask it again.
Why are the torpedo ranges used in players database derived so closely from DB2000 ?

As requested I also attach some more research.



_____________________________



"Alas poor Yorick,I knew him Horatio"

#1 Quote of the Harpoon Community.

(in reply to hermanhum)
Post #: 49
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/29/2006 11:48:17 PM   
Vincenzo Beretta

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Milan, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flankerk

As the question keeps being evaded, I'll ask it again.
Why are the torpedo ranges used in players database derived so closely from DB2000 ?


And Herman answered, and also asked about "Radar-Cross-Section and Sound levels, Engines, Sensors, Fuel, and Weapons capability flags" Why don't you answer THAT?

Exactly, what you are accusing another DB editor of, here? *Exactly*? Accuses involving lists of common IP (listing of real world platforms etc.) were already proved as void - being these lists just that: factual and common IP. Origins of propertary IP (torpedo ranges, PKs...) have been explained. Structure is not a factor, for reason already explained, and BTW it is not even considered important, since numbering of the DB2000 entries itself has been subjected to arbitrary modifications in the past.

So, what is left?

And we are still OT. Time to move to another part of the forum for real, if you want to pursue the matter further. Or, better than that, I would suggest to you to PM Herman, if this thing really bothers you.

_____________________________


(in reply to Flankerk)
Post #: 50
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/30/2006 9:27:07 AM   
Flankerk

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 6/21/2006
Status: offline 		This debate started after comments that in effect asked me to "Put up or shut up". I seem to recall the suggestion that scenarios posted on Harpoon Headquarters, The Harpoon Headquarters Database, and my understanding of how the Players Database originated were poorly researched.

To all intents and purposes it was a challenge to post research backing up my initial impressions.

Having done so I note the tone has changed and you are now asking me to shut up. I am asked to take this to message, usenet or another forum etc. In fact I am being asked to take it anywhere but here ,where it might be seen by anyone independent.

I don't however see any form of apology for the comments made by both yourself and Herman?

If any answers were being provided fair enough, but I don't notice much in a way of a reply from Herman who appears to suggest that the closeness of the torpedo ranges in players database to DB2000 might in some way be due to their Radar Cross Section ?

_____________________________



"Alas poor Yorick,I knew him Horatio"

#1 Quote of the Harpoon Community.

(in reply to Vincenzo Beretta)
Post #: 51
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/30/2006 9:54:42 AM   
Vincenzo Beretta

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Milan, Italy
Status: offline 		First: you are still OT - again, from this the suggestion to move this discussion elsewhere, including elsewhere on this forum.

Second: a community - any community - has a very dim view of accusations made without significant proof. For some reason, this does seem to happen more often in the Harpoon community than in others. The view is still dim.

I asked for some proof. You have posted nothing of the sort. You have posted a series of irrelevant unconnected snapshots. When you have been told where to look for the correct data, you ignored it and continue to post unrelated data as 'research'.

Your question relates to the genealogy of the PlayersDB and Herman has show you what and where to look for the family tree. However, you continue to post data out of the local phone book as some sort of proof.

You are certainly NOT being asked to "be quiet". You ARE being asked to provide factual data and, perhaps, do it in a more appropriate area since this is the support forum.

Third: as of this writing, you have made unsupported allegations about a member of the community. I pointed out that. I take full responsibility for that, and I see nothing I have to excuse for.

Four: Just out of curiosity, are you claiming some sort of "ownership" on part of the data found in DB2000? Because, glancing at the latest version, it is (C) by only one person (even if it was a community effort) and that person, while following this thread, doesn't seems bothered enought to partecipate. Which is a basic point in the copyright law: it is upon *the copyright owner* to challenge an alleged plagiarism after acquiring knowledge about it - or, implicitly, the owner accepts that there was no plagiarism at all. This is the very reason why companies small and big living on creative contents are forced to send "cease and desist" letters or to sue even when it may seem an unpopular act.

And, five: You are still OT - AGAIN. It is worth mentioning that one last time, because if anything, it symbolizes a total indifference about the factual things that others are pointing out to you in this thread. Be warned: I'll post no more about this matter in a forum were it is considered OT.

Vince

_____________________________


(in reply to Flankerk)
Post #: 52
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/30/2006 10:24:57 AM   
Sunburn


Posts: 243
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta
First: you are still OT - again, from this the suggestion to move this discussion elsewhere, including elsewhere on this forum.

It's up to the forum admins to judge the relevance of these posts or not. You consider them off-topic, others do not.

quote:


Second: a community - any community - has a very dim view of accusations made without significant proof. For some reason, this does seem to happen more often in the Harpoon community than in others. The view is still dim.

Indeed. Including repeated accusations of malicious tampering with DB indexes. Said malicious intent never conclusively proven, and yet the case being brought up solely by a specific person (namely, you) again and again. If you are unable to put your own complains to rest then you're probably ill-suited to advise others to do likewise.

quote:


I asked for some proof. You have posted nothing of the sort. You have posted a series of irrelevant unconnected snapshots. When you have been told where to look for the correct data, you ignored it and continue to post unrelated data as 'research'.

Let DB-knowledgable and unbiased people be the judges of that.

quote:


Your question relates to the genealogy of the PlayersDB and Herman has show you what and where to look for the family tree. However, you continue to post data out of the local phone book as some sort of proof.

The data are straight out of the DBs in question. Hardly "local phone book" material. Perhaps you are able to provide even more relevant hard data that conclusively shows that the "amazing similarities" are just that?

quote:


You are certainly NOT being asked to "be quiet". You ARE being asked to provide factual data and, perhaps, do it in a more appropriate area since this is the support forum.

Lots of factual data in these posts. As for the "appropriate area", I am sure the forum admins can be the judges of that and, if they consider it necessary, can split this thread and move it to any area they deem it appropriate. It seems, however, that your problem lies primarily with the existence of these posts in the first place rather than their placement in this thread.

quote:


Third: as of this writing, you have made unsupported allegations about a member of the community. I pointed out that. I take full responsibility for that, and I see nothing I have to excuse for.

Let others judge whether there are allegations present and, if so, whether they are supported or not. You are a known associate of the creator of the PlayersDB and his consorts and thus your own objectivity in the matter is strongly in question. And before you say it, Flanker's and my own bias are openly declared on our sigs. Where is yours?

quote:


Four: Just out of curiosity, are you claiming some sort of "ownership" on part of the data found in DB2000? Because, glancing at the latest version, it is (C) by only one person (even if it was a community effort) and that person, while following this thread, doesn't seems bothered enought to partecipate. Which is a basic point in the copyright law: it is upon *the copyright owner* to challenge an alleged plagiarism after acquiring knowledge about it - or, implicitly, the owner accepts that there was no plagiarism at all. This is the very reason why companies small and big living on creative contents are forced to send "cease and desist" letters or to sue even when it may seem an unpopular act.

Ducking in legalese cover already? Run out of reason and common sense already? How disappointing.

quote:


And, five: You are still OT - AGAIN. It is worth mentioning that one last time, because if anything, it symbolizes a total indifference about the factual things that others are pointing out to you in this thread. Be warned: I'll post no more about this matter in a forum were it is considered OT.

Vince

Your choice. Be sure that your attempts to cloud the issue will not be missed.

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 6/30/2006 5:35:15 PM >

_____________________________

When you stand before God, you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time". This will not suffice. Remember that.

http://www.warfaresims.com

Dimitris
Warfare Sims

(in reply to Vincenzo Beretta)
Post #: 53
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/30/2006 5:53:57 PM   
sirius


Posts: 31
Joined: 5/11/2006
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Hehe look what I found 3 ID entries the same in DB2K and PDB but not in HUD 2, the chance of this happening is a freak of nature..... saying that there is afew freaks on the thread so anything is possible

PDB
Herman
ID: Name: Name
716 AFS Mars USN 63
1409 VT Uda (Project 577) RUS 62
1355 FB Urga (Proj 1886.1) RUS 63


DB2000
Ragnar
ID: Name: Name
716 AFS 1 Mars|1980s
1409 VT Uda|Oiler
1355 PB Urga|1980s/P1886.1/Sub Depot


HUD 2

ID: Name: Name
716 NIL ENTRY
1409 NIL ENTRY
1355 NIL ENTRY




_____________________________



"Well old boy,this happens in war.I am sorry your ships have been sunk"
- C-in-C PAF to his naval counterpart in 1971

(in reply to Sunburn)
Post #: 54
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 6/30/2006 8:05:50 PM   
Flankerk

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 6/21/2006
Status: offline 		All these "coincidences" and yet not a comment from the authors?
I assume this is an admission by omission on their part?

And still not even an apology.........

Perhaps they are busily renaming it the Plagiarised Database

_____________________________



"Alas poor Yorick,I knew him Horatio"

#1 Quote of the Harpoon Community.

(in reply to sirius)
Post #: 55
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 7/1/2006 11:05:11 AM   
Flankerk

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 6/21/2006
Status: offline 		You know, if this wasn't on such a scale........
I'd have run out of things to post by now

Perhaps that is why even the most avid defenders of the players database are nowhere to be seen.



_____________________________



"Alas poor Yorick,I knew him Horatio"

#1 Quote of the Harpoon Community.

(in reply to Flankerk)
Post #: 56
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 7/1/2006 1:58:37 PM   
michaelm

 

Posts: 4425
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Just because the ID and Description are the same does not mean that the underlying data is the same.

In WITP, most of the modded scenarios use the same ID and descriptions. But the underlying attributes have been changed to suit the modder's point of view.

_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to Flankerk)
Post #: 57
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 7/1/2006 2:56:37 PM   
Sunburn


Posts: 243
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm
Just because the ID and Description are the same does not mean that the underlying data is the same.

In WITP, most of the modded scenarios use the same ID and descriptions. But the underlying attributes have been changed to suit the modder's point of view.


Exactly. And the scenario modders in that case make no attempt whatsoever to conceal the fact that they took someone else's original work and made some changes to it.

Here, on the other hand, we have a new dataset with eye-gobbling similarities to an existing one (one that has been polished over 10 years) and its "creator" swears that he in fact did not base it on the original, but that he instead modified another older creation that bears almost no resemblance whatsoever to the original work. He would like us to believe that the amazing verisimilitude between his "creation" and the original work is a matter of freak chance.

See my love-poem analogy a few posts back for a sound representation of the situation.

_____________________________

When you stand before God, you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time". This will not suffice. Remember that.

http://www.warfaresims.com

Dimitris
Warfare Sims

(in reply to michaelm)
Post #: 58
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 7/1/2006 4:50:29 PM   
danrh

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 6/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Just because the ID and Description are the same does not mean that the underlying data is the same.

In WITP, most of the modded scenarios use the same ID and descriptions. But the underlying attributes have been changed to suit the modder's point of view.


And that would be fine were all the entries merely based on the original databases. The fact is though that the third party Dbs have far surpassed the original DBs with for instance in the aircraft annex more than a thousand new entries. The fact that of those new entries in the PDB dozens of them have the same ID numbers for the same platform seems to be an extremely unlikely coincidence. The funny thing is that having made a big issue of never changing an old entry so as not affect any scenarios (related to the unsubstantiated allegations of deliberate db tampering to ruin scenarios that they have been peddling about the DB2000 and associated DBs for quite some time now) they've made it very difficult for themselves to now go and hide the evidence :)

Daniel

_____________________________


(in reply to michaelm)
Post #: 59
RE: Bug Report: Units starting inside minimum range wil... - 7/1/2006 7:54:43 PM   
TMC

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline 		This thread has become a joke. I have look at both database and they are completely different from each other. Who care if some IDs or names are the same. We are talking about real weapon systems and data should be close or the same in all databases. Each database has some different approaches like rounding ranges but the cross section valves are different and many other values. As a long time player since the first verison I would prefer for all database to use the same formulas and values. There should be a set of tools published that all databases use to allow all user to add units or make changes to any database.

(in reply to danrh)
Post #: 60
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