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Minekaze class DD - YOU Decide

 
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Minekaze class DD - YOU Decide - 6/4/2006 1:34:40 AM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12510
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		A lil destroyer that hasn't grown up yet or a gun boat or steroids? You decide.

As a Japanese noob I'm wondering what use this class of destoyer is. It has short legs, no depth charges and little AA ability (12), how is this ship not a gun boat? More to the point, what good is it?

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RE: Minekaze class DD - YOU Decide - 6/4/2006 1:38:14 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 40077
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Not much good as is, but it does get a little bit of a refit in 3/42. Then it can be used as a convoy escort.

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RE: Minekaze class DD - YOU Decide - 6/4/2006 1:38:29 AM   
Sneer


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Status: offline 		it will get DCs later - you have never enough escort vessels -especially with aggressive allied sub command

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RE: Minekaze class DD - YOU Decide - 6/4/2006 1:40:12 AM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		The Minekazes were the oldest destroyers in fleet service by 12/41, having been commisioned from 1920-22.

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RE: Minekaze class DD - YOU Decide - 6/4/2006 1:52:53 AM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12510
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Status: offline 		So stick them away in some port until they upgrade? Im considering using them in my DEI campaign to chase down the ships trying to run away.

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RE: Minekaze class DD - YOU Decide - 6/4/2006 1:59:11 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 40077
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Status: offline 		You can do that; just remember that they don't have Long Lances...

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Tomozuru a torpedoboat why DD? - 6/4/2006 2:02:42 AM   
Ursa MAior

 

Posts: 1403
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Hungary, EU
Status: offline 		Good point. I have another one.

Why are the infamous Tomozuru class torpedo boats classed as DDs?

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RE: Tomozuru a torpedoboat why DD? - 6/4/2006 2:05:36 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 40077
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Status: offline 		Good question... They're certainly not big enough...

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RE: Tomozuru a torpedoboat why DD? - 6/4/2006 2:09:58 AM   
Ursa MAior

 

Posts: 1403
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Status: offline 		Good speed 30+ 3×4,7" and a coupl of longlances are still only a beefed up, but handicapped (no DCs) PG for me. How is it in CHS?

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RE: Tomozuru a torpedoboat why DD? - 6/4/2006 2:21:24 AM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Good speed 30+ 3×4,7" and a coupl of longlances are still only a beefed up, but handicapped (no DCs) PG for me. How is it in CHS?


About the same as the Minekaze then. With my very spotty knowledge of navy history and tactics I had forgotten that one of the main reasons destroyers were designed was to deliver torps in combat situations that were not suitable for motor patrol boats, i.e. naval engagements in far away places.

I believe the reason both of these were classed as DDs was for that very reason. Might be good to use in small surface combat fleets.

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RE: Tomozuru a torpedoboat why DD? - 6/4/2006 2:39:53 AM   
Monter_Trismegistos


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Status: offline 		They are as old and as small as flush-deckers, use them as escorts against PT boats, they are also very handy (and expendable) in Fast Transport mission.

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RE: Tomozuru a torpedoboat why DD? - 6/4/2006 3:21:08 AM   
madflava13


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Status: offline 		Even if they can't DC a sub, they can keep it from surfacing and gunning your ships...

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RE: Tomozuru a torpedoboat why DD? - 6/4/2006 3:27:32 AM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Good speed 30+ 3×4,7" and a coupl of longlances are still only a beefed up, but handicapped (no DCs) PG for me. How is it in CHS?


About the same as the Minekaze then. With my very spotty knowledge of navy history and tactics I had forgotten that one of the main reasons destroyers were designed was to deliver torps in combat situations that were not suitable for motor patrol boats, i.e. naval engagements in far away places.

I believe the reason both of these were classed as DDs was for that very reason. Might be good to use in small surface combat fleets.


Plus, the class "Torpedo Boat" doesn't exist in WitP...

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RE: Tomozuru a torpedoboat why DD? - 6/4/2006 3:33:00 AM   
BrucePowers


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Status: offline 		Convoy escort. As Japan there is areal need for escorts later in the war. Just my 2 cents worth.

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RE: Minekaze class DD - YOU Decide - 6/5/2006 10:44:08 AM   
el cid again

 

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Status: offline 		You are asking (first) about very old (WWI era design) destroyers and (later) about a second class destroyer designed in the 1930s which had to have armament reduced for stability reasons - after a dreadful storm made it plain. Both classes were eventually made into something very similar to a DE and, in that form, become useful. The other use of the old DDs was to convert them to APDs, and you have some of those in the game.

Historically, "torpedo boats" were big - not "motor torpedo boats" in the WWII sense - and they remained popular in the small seas of Europe - and also in Thailand! where range was not a big problem. Originally "destroyers" were called "torpedoboat destroyers" - meaning they were supposed to "destroy" those pesky "torpedo boats!" Japan pioneered the very big "cruiser destroyer" for ocean use - but the USN also built remarkably similar big destroyers in the pre war period - and these came to dominate our thinking - so we have forgotten that originally the destroyer was an "anti-torpedoboat" ship! Changing the name - for simplicity - also means we have generally forgotten they are properly called "torpedoboat destroyers" (if the original name is the proper one).

Gun boats are entirely different.  They are generally not intended for use on the open sea - and lack the keel depth or range to do so safely - and they only have one or two guns.  There is little room to make them into effective escorts either. Gun boats are supposed to outclass the unarmed (or tiny) vessels they face - they are supposed to hide from 'real' warships - even destroyers.  And for that reason they are always slow - just fast enough to catch a merchant or small craft.  But there are some gigantic gunboats - and some are ocean going as well - with six inch guns no less!  There also are armored gunboats.  The biggest of all are in Thailand - with 8 inch guns - and one of these is in RHS (the other was sunk in 1940 in a brief war with France - well both were sunk but the one we have appears in Japan after the repairs are completed  - almost at the start of our campaign game). 

< Message edited by el cid again -- 6/5/2006 10:47:53 AM >

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RE: Minekaze class DD - YOU Decide - 6/5/2006 11:03:28 AM   
Oznoyng

 

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Status: offline 		I use them for fast transport primarily until early February 1942. I then send them home to Japan where they repair (2 months of fast transport missions takes its toll on them) and refit. By about mid-march they are escorting transports.

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RE: Tomozuru a torpedoboat why DD? - 6/5/2006 11:51:56 AM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

They are as old and as small as flush-deckers, use them as escorts against PT boats, they are also very handy (and expendable) in Fast Transport mission.


IR, they were commonly used as fast transports.

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RE: Tomozuru a torpedoboat why DD? - 6/5/2006 2:13:52 PM   
Speedy

 

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Status: offline 		Yup after their refit they are pretty handy ships as convoy escort/ASW TF ships at 147 AA and 4 ASW rating IIRC

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RE: Minekaze class DD - YOU Decide - 6/5/2006 6:28:50 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12510
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From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		el cid, first off thank you to you and the others for answering my questions. Your statement in particular generated a question and a thought.

First, if destroyers were intended as anti-torpedo boat weapons then why did some of them carry so many torpedos themselves? For, surely a high rate of fire deck gun would be far more effective against lightly armored fast moving targets. I do seem to recall hearing about how destroyers were used in that capacity, but the placement of so many torpedo tubes on destroyers would suggest that they had another purpose.

As for gun boats, I have noticed that with several exceptions, navies around the world tended to stick guns on just about anything that was big enough and call them a gun boat. I think this was more common among smaller countries, but even the USN teneded to convert yachts, or whatever was handy at the time into a PG. I wouldn't seriously consider the Minekaze just a gun boat, but certainly did appear to be a ship without a function at the start of the war with the US.

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RE: Minekaze class DD - YOU Decide - 6/5/2006 6:41:24 PM   
Terminus


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From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Destroyers were indeed intended as anti-torpedo boat weapons, but they ended up supplanting them in their role. Think of them as skirmishers in the armies of the ancient world, their job to attrit the enemy main force and kill off their opposite numbers on the other side.



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RE: Minekaze class DD - YOU Decide - 6/5/2006 6:54:39 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

First, if destroyers were intended as anti-torpedo boat weapons then why did some of them carry so many torpedos themselves


Evolution! There was a niche for torpedo attack craft, and the little torpedo boats could not cut the mustard (too small, fragile, short range, too slow for that matter - most of the DDs in WW1 were faster than the torpedo boats they were designed to destroy, iirc). The bigger, faster and tougher DDs got torpedo tubes to carry the weapon instead. Torpedoes were just too important and devastating a weapon to discard.

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RE: Minekaze class DD - YOU Decide - 6/6/2006 12:09:55 AM   
irrelevant


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quote:

First, if destroyers were intended as anti-torpedo boat weapons then why did some of them carry so many torpedos themselves? For, surely a high rate of fire deck gun would be far more effective against lightly armored fast moving targets. I do seem to recall hearing about how destroyers were used in that capacity, but the placement of so many torpedo tubes on destroyers would suggest that they had another purpose.

It is quite simple. It was recognized early on that in carrying out their mission of destroying torpedo boats before they could reach torpedo launch positions (somewhere in between opposing battle lines), they would themselves have attained good positions to carry out torpedo attacks of their own. Because of this, "pure" torpedo boats (fast, fragile craft with scarcely any guns) became obsolete, and the two types merged together into the destroyer.

Actually the torpedo boat did not become obsolete; rather it became smaller and faster, cheaper to build, harder to hit. It became the MTB/PT boat.

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RE: Tomozuru a torpedoboat why DD? - 6/6/2006 12:17:51 AM   
irrelevant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Yup after their refit they are pretty handy ships as convoy escort/ASW TF ships at 147 AA and 4 ASW rating IIRC

Following their refit they are the best DDs available to serve as CVTF escorts. The other old DDs (Wakatakes, Kamikazes) also have similar upgrades. Even the Momis get depth charges. By 7/42 there are scads of excellent escorts, leaving the Fubukis/Akatsukis/Asashios/Kageros/Yugumos (with their superb torpedo batteries) for SCTF duty.

The only downside to using these old DDs with KB is their short legs. All the IJN DDs have more or less lousy endurance, but using the older DDs really ties you to your train. Not an insurmountable obstacle, but it is a constraint. IMO it is worth it.

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 6/6/2006 12:23:48 AM >

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RE: Tomozuru a torpedoboat why DD? - 6/6/2006 12:23:30 AM   
Mike Solli


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Status: offline 		The only upgrade that disappointed me was the Yugumo's first upgrade. They gained no AA, but they do get a couple of radars. Not sure if the air radar works though. Anyone know? All of the rest of the upgrades (at least through Jul 42) are pretty decent, compared to what the Japanese player starts with.

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RE: Tomozuru a torpedoboat why DD? - 6/6/2006 12:37:58 AM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Unfortunately, unless you run the fix for it, Yugumo's Type 13 radar is useless...

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RE: Tomozuru a torpedoboat why DD? - 6/6/2006 1:16:33 AM   
irishman


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Status: offline 		Does the fix work with current games or is a restart needed?

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RE: Tomozuru a torpedoboat why DD? - 6/6/2006 3:10:35 PM   
Arkady


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Status: offline 		it works only for new games

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RE: Tomozuru a torpedoboat why DD? - 6/6/2006 6:01:28 PM   
irishman


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Status: offline 		Does this mean that for current games, ALL japanese radars present and future are useless?

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RE: Tomozuru a torpedoboat why DD? - 6/6/2006 6:40:52 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Well no, just the Type 13. Unfortunately, that's the only air search radar the Japs get, so they're pretty much screwed...

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RE: Tomozuru a torpedoboat why DD? - 6/6/2006 8:44:35 PM   
Mike Solli


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Status: offline 		Thanks, T. You're just full of good news today.

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