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RE: Manual - 5/26/2006 1:04:02 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4601
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From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
This is the only person I have approached regarding a printed manual, so I do not know how realistic this is or if anyone else has managed to get a manual printed on A5 and bound "like a manual" and had the problems he's saying he may have....


Hi,

FinePrint and probably some other virtual printer drivers allow you to print in "booklet" format - they basically re-position every page so you get 2 pages on each side of a single A4 even on non-duplex printers. Presto: an A5 sized manual. Great stuff, I use it all the time. A secretary with a stapler that can reach the center crease is also handy :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 31
RE: Manual - 5/26/2006 5:55:55 PM   
Tzar007


Posts: 766
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Status: offline
Although it's always nice to get a printed material, I don't understand why people get so much worked up over this...

Dave said it: wargaming is a niche genre. This is not Madden, Halo or Warcraft. I know the videogame business, I have access to sales figures, and I have no trouble believing Panther probably just barely recoup their development costs - and that's if they are lucky. Why do you think it's only going to be available through direct download ? Because being in a distribution network for retail is expensive for such low sales product. Everybody takes his quote along the chain. And in any case, you don't get that much shelve space for wargames at your local EB Games (if any at all). So when every penny counts, providing the manual in pdf form makes sense.

Believe me, Panther develop these games because they are maniacs and we're all damn lucky enough that they are continuing the development of this engine and plan to do more still with such risky prospects of getting a return on investment. We're fortunate enough to get such a quality commitment, and hundreds of page of documentation in an era where more game companies cut corners and deliver skimpy documentation. That in itself should be enough the overlook the fact that manual comes in PDF format rather than printed.

Yes, I would also like to get a printed manual, but come on guys, give them a break

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 32
RE: Manual - 5/26/2006 6:38:32 PM   
GoodGuy

 

Posts: 1501
Joined: 5/17/2006
From: Cologne, Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

the manuals come in reader format (page 1 followed by page 2, 3 etc. However, he needs to have the manual in printer format e.g. last page next to 1st page etc so that he can print it out on A5 (I don't know if it's because I wanted it in A5...)...he said he could jiggle it about, but it would take sometime and significantly increase the cost.


I'm pretty sure that he needs that specific page setup for stapling/binding the stuff on the machines being at his disposal. As mentioned by someone else, most printers + print programs will be able to re-arrange stuff on the fly, these days.

Btw, Tzar007, looks like ppl are willing to chip in for an optional printed version in addition to the electronic one and I dunno why it shouldn't be discussed. If there are like 20 ppl only being hot for prints, well....than bad luck :p But if there's a fair amount of ppl......Maybe collect the number of requests and then decide whether a printed version will be released or not, imho.......let's say like a pre-order thingy.

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 5/26/2006 6:45:03 PM >


_____________________________

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December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
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Tim Stone
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(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 33
RE: Manual - 5/26/2006 11:26:45 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8474
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tzar007

Although it's always nice to get a printed material, I don't understand why people get so much worked up over this...

Dave said it: wargaming is a niche genre. This is not Madden, Halo or Warcraft. I know the videogame business, I have access to sales figures, and I have no trouble believing Panther probably just barely recoup their development costs - and that's if they are lucky. Why do you think it's only going to be available through direct download ? Because being in a distribution network for retail is expensive for such low sales product. Everybody takes his quote along the chain. And in any case, you don't get that much shelve space for wargames at your local EB Games (if any at all). So when every penny counts, providing the manual in pdf form makes sense.

Believe me, Panther develop these games because they are maniacs and we're all damn lucky enough that they are continuing the development of this engine and plan to do more still with such risky prospects of getting a return on investment. We're fortunate enough to get such a quality commitment, and hundreds of page of documentation in an era where more game companies cut corners and deliver skimpy documentation. That in itself should be enough the overlook the fact that manual comes in PDF format rather than printed.

Yes, I would also like to get a printed manual, but come on guys, give them a break



I'm not going over it again. Re-read my post. I think you'll find that I sympathise with their position, but should a printed manual be offered, I would like one.
End of...

_____________________________

JudgeDredd
I AM the Law!

(in reply to Tzar007)
Post #: 34
RE: Manual - 5/27/2006 1:02:54 AM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10890
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Could you please comment/advise on the page layout arangements for a print version. My understanding is that any printer worth his salt should be able to take a pdf arranged in consequitive spreads and print it. In other words there is no need to preconfigure it in 8 or 16 page layouts as in the old days. Is that your understanding too?


Exactly, even Kinkos can handle this

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Marc von Martial

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Post #: 35
RE: Manual - 5/27/2006 3:25:41 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17771
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline


thanks Marc.

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www.panthergames.com

(in reply to Marc von Martial)
Post #: 36
RE: Manual - 5/27/2006 5:39:38 PM   
Bob M.

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 9/2/2004
Status: offline
There may be an opportunity here for an entrepeneur. When Ubisoft released a sim title "Lock-On" with the full manual on disk, they allowed a third party to print and sell the full manual. Perhaps Matrix would be open to such an arrangement. I'm sure that even a relatively limited run of 100 or so manuals would sell at whatever price the seller needed to make a small profit from the venture.

On the flip side, let's put things in perspective. I, too, would prefer to receive a three inch thick printed manual with COTA. But very few commercial games are coming with much in the way of manuals today. The price charged for an 'A' title is the same as proposed for COTA. And most of the titles don't interest me, and few hold my interest for very long. Yet based on my experience with HTTR, I am confident I will easily derive my money's worth of enjoyment from COTA even without a printed manual. Just my $0.02 worth.

Very Respectfully

Bob M.

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 37
RE: Manual - 5/27/2006 9:09:11 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8474
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bob M.
...I am confident I will easily derive my money's worth of enjoyment from COTA even without a printed manual. Just my $0.02 worth.

Very Respectfully

Bob M.

Bob

I'm not suggesting it isn't worth the price tag, nor is anyone else I think.
I'm not suggesting that the quaility suffers because there is no manual.
I'm not suggesting that they can be bothered to provide a printed manual.

I'm merely asking for a printed manual. I've already stated I've been waiting enough for this title and I will buy it.

I was simply expressing my desire that a printed manual be supplied. If they choose to say No, then that's there perogative and I'm sure it will be made on solid business reasons.

I admire their business sense, I admire their games and I admire the effort to produce a polished product. The sale has been made.

But if they can find some way, chargeable, to produce a manual for those who would like one, at as low a cost as possible, then I would buy it.

_____________________________

JudgeDredd
I AM the Law!

(in reply to Bob M.)
Post #: 38
RE: Manual - 6/1/2006 3:10:32 PM   
Agema

 

Posts: 153
Joined: 1/17/2005
Status: offline
My only issue with .pdf manuals is that it can be a bit of a fuss minimising the game into Windows if you want to check something. Mind you, my eyesight is pretty sturdy and I don't mind staring at a computer screen even if it's worth than paper.

Let's also be realistic. The manual will have a history of the campaign. It'll have the usual introductory niceties, technical support stuff, how to install the game and start it up, and so on. You don't need to print any of that as anyone clever enough to to have installed and started any game before isn't going to be tripped up by the basics; in the case of the history, read it at your leisure off the screen. That skims printing requirements right down immediately. For those of us who have played HTTR, there's even less need for other stuff, because we already know most of the game mechanics. Flick through the .pdf, find what you think you might need to peruse at more length, and print that. You might even be able to scale it to two pages per sheet of A4. I'd figure a player of the game precursors might only need a few dozen A4 sheets: they can be held them together with the miracles that are paperclips, staples, plastic wallets or ring folders.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 39
RE: Manual - 6/1/2006 3:27:51 PM   
Willard


Posts: 120
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: Up the Nung river past Do Lung bridge...
Status: offline
Arjuna -

For what it is worth, a printed manual is a nice but unnecessary luxury. I prefer a better coded game than anything else.

If you need 10,000 units sold, may I suggest (a bit tongue-in-cheek) a PR campaign for this endeavor?
You should set up a counter on the COTA page that counts down units sold. Then we can watch the progress everyday. If everyone includes a sig link for every board we post on, perhaps we can start a grass roots sale campaign!!!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
We need to sell 10,000 units just to recoup our costs. I doubt we will make that. That's the cold hard facts. This is a mugs game that only the foolish, crazy or obsessed persue. I don't think we're foolish but I'll leave it you to work out which of the other two applies in our case.



_____________________________

Everyone gets everything he wants. I wanted a mission, and for my sins they gave me one.

"Give me rats, foxes and sand."
Critical Mass, 06/18/04

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 40
RE: Manual - 6/1/2006 3:53:28 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8474
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Agema

My only issue with .pdf manuals is that it can be a bit of a fuss minimising the game into Windows if you want to check something. Mind you, my eyesight is pretty sturdy and I don't mind staring at a computer screen even if it's worth than paper.

Let's also be realistic. The manual will have a history of the campaign. It'll have the usual introductory niceties, technical support stuff, how to install the game and start it up, and so on. You don't need to print any of that as anyone clever enough to to have installed and started any game before isn't going to be tripped up by the basics; in the case of the history, read it at your leisure off the screen. That skims printing requirements right down immediately. For those of us who have played HTTR, there's even less need for other stuff, because we already know most of the game mechanics. Flick through the .pdf, find what you think you might need to peruse at more length, and print that. You might even be able to scale it to two pages per sheet of A4. I'd figure a player of the game precursors might only need a few dozen A4 sheets: they can be held them together with the miracles that are paperclips, staples, plastic wallets or ring folders.




_____________________________

JudgeDredd
I AM the Law!

(in reply to Agema)
Post #: 41
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