Scenario 17 ... for your comments (Full Version)

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Mr.Frag -> Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/7/2005 4:34:36 AM)

All Chinese Corps have been increased to equal 3 divisions, I have made modest adjustments to supply levels and increased the Chinese daily supply points from 300 to 350 to help offset the stronger units. The purpose of this test scenario is to see if we can slow down operations in the Chinese theater.

Enhanced China Standard Scenario

Give it a try and provide your feedback.




moses -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/7/2005 6:18:21 AM)

You're going to need to add about 20,000 supply or edit all the individual unit supplies. You've got 60-70 units which are each short 300 supply and willl be drawing this supply on the first turn. I think you cities will all be orange by turn 2.




Grotius -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/7/2005 6:31:52 AM)

Sounds interesting, Mr. Frag; I'll load it up and try it. I take it this is not the same scenario as the one Mogami is working on?




Mr.Frag -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/7/2005 6:52:35 AM)

Combo Pry/Mogami work to deal with China.




pry -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/7/2005 1:22:54 PM)

Basically looking for two players (or more) who put out allot of turns to have a go at this (Testing against AI is pointless) to see if this will slow down an aggressive Japanese player from running all over and taking China out early as many players are doing now.

Comments on how/if this works are much appreciated, I am especially interested in the Chinese supply aspect as well as any possible "Offensive Possibilities" this might present.




moses -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/7/2005 4:50:07 PM)

I've been looking for a China only Japanese opponent for over a month. I would be happy to test this as China. Frankly I don't think Japan has a prayer. My next two weeks are a bit busy but Witp_dude and I have cranked out 8 months of turns since Dec.

I still think you need to add a little supply at start. All those upgraded units are going to draw 300 supply each on the first turn and your stockpile are going to drop very low. Maybe it won't matter in the long run but initially I don't even know if China will be able to fly its planes.




BlackVoid -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/7/2005 11:23:27 PM)

Moses, I will take that game.
contact me: blackvoid@freemail.hu




BlackVoid -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/7/2005 11:52:06 PM)

I suggest this:
- Burma road is closed/opened at historical date

Japan makes a major effort in China, so
- 2/3 of IJA level bombers deploy to China
- All Ki-51s deploy to China
- some Kwantung divs are transferred with no PPs paid (if Soviets activate then they activate, basically Japan lost)
- 2 SA divs transfer to China
- 3 zero daitai deploy to China
- 2/3 of Oscar and Nate AC deploy to China
- Airfield from Mandalay can operate AC assigned to Chinese theater

Allied player realizes the importance of China too, so reacts accordingly
- AVG + 2 heavy bomber sqdn can deploy to China (1 Brit, 1 US)
- 3 Hurricane sqdrns can deploy to China
- Heavy bombers can join in air transport (up to 1/3 of bombers originally assigned to India theatre)
- 1/3 of Dakota sqdrns can join air transport
- in India, allied player can operate from east indian bases any AC assigned to China theater
- Chinese units destined for Burma stay in China


Burma/India bases can have on both sides (together)
- 2 construction units, any BF units that have no AA, 3 AA units, 1 Air HQ

Of course I open to changes on the above, but those are about the forces I would commit as Japan/Allies if China is a priority.




Feinder -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/7/2005 11:52:15 PM)

Dang-it!

I just started a game vs. WitP_Dude. I don't have time for another.

Phoo-ey.
-F-




BlackVoid -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/8/2005 12:01:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

All Chinese Corps have been increased to equal 3 divisions, I have made modest adjustments to supply levels and increased the Chinese daily supply points from 300 to 350 to help offset the stronger units. The purpose of this test scenario is to see if we can slow down operations in the Chinese theater.

Enhanced China Standard Scenario

Give it a try and provide your feedback.


What does this actually mean? Chinese Corps 2x as strong?




Tanaka -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/8/2005 12:48:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

All Chinese Corps have been increased to equal 3 divisions, I have made modest adjustments to supply levels and increased the Chinese daily supply points from 300 to 350 to help offset the stronger units. The purpose of this test scenario is to see if we can slow down operations in the Chinese theater.

Enhanced China Standard Scenario

Give it a try and provide your feedback.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Pry sent me a file where he increased the Chinese Corps from 2 to 4 div. I think it will solve many problems. It doubled the supply required (He added no extra supply)
Now the Japanese will have to risk Chinese attacks in locations where they strip troops to mass against any Chinese city but the Chinese still cannot get 2-1 against the Japanese by massing. (they would also have to weaken one point to attack another.
However the Chinese can now defend their cities by placing units outside them and if the Japanese enter a city to stop supply production they risk being counter attacked.

I like it.

I'll test it later since I need to run both sides. Against the AI the human always was winning before.

If nothing else both sides will need to set objective prior to attacking and wait for the units to get to 100. I don't think you want to make attacks with unready troops.


I thought you guys had doubled them to 4 divisions???




pry -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/8/2005 3:16:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
I thought you guys had doubled them to 4 divisions???


I have made several versions with various things done, This one is the one I consider the most able to slow down the China theater but not swing it towards the Chinese side.




moses -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/8/2005 3:46:34 PM)

quote:

2/3 of IJA level bombers deploy to China


How many planes is this??!!!

Brings out an intersting topic. Read the thread "easy way to defeat China" which I started way back in August. The idea is too just bomb China into submission with very little ground action at all. Turned out in testing to be a little slower than I wanted plus I assumed that those level bombers that you want are not available at the start. Have to take sra first.

This does point out a hole in the new OOB. They have added about an 18,000 SP per month supply requirement. They have only added 3000 sp per month added supply. Plus the initial supply level is lower because all those new units are under supplied at first and will draw down base supply levels at start of game.

So new strategy. Ground force objective is too take Yenan. This will probably be successful although I would not gurantee success. Don't try to take Changsa/Wuchow. Just bomb them to nothing. With 5 or 6 bomber groups and 3 zero groups you can do this in a few weeks. It goes fast and there is nothing China can do. I've tried bringing in Hurricans/AVG but they just don't match up early on.

With Changsa/Wuchow no longer producing China is now in supply deficit and added troops only speed the process of starving. Bombing shifts to other cities and progressivly destroys Chinese economy.

Frankly I don't think you will need that many bombers. 2 Sally groups and your dive bombers with a zero squadren will probably be sufficient for this strategy.

The extra troops are just an added burden for China.

You're thoughts? I'm still deciding on if I want to participate in this demonstration. Might be interesting.




harrer -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/9/2005 9:49:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

All Chinese Corps have been increased to equal 3 divisions, I have made modest adjustments to supply levels and increased the Chinese daily supply points from 300 to 350 to help offset the stronger units. The purpose of this test scenario is to see if we can slow down operations in the Chinese theater.

Enhanced China Standard Scenario

Give it a try and provide your feedback.


I test it but some reinforcements have increase ( Indian), others have decrease(Anzac, Brittish)... if you will give have chance to the chinese and Indian player, just increase their reinforcements ! ! And give for the 4 chinese cities 500 supply ...

Harrer




Ron Saueracker -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/9/2005 5:13:03 PM)

Pry. Is this THE pbem scenario with all the air group work or a seperate project?




BlackVoid -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/9/2005 7:34:49 PM)

I may have second thoughts about this too. You are right that China is easy to starve by bombing.

The scen looks like a modified 15, so full map.




Mr.Frag -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/9/2005 9:36:13 PM)

quote:

Frankly I don't think you will need that many bombers. 2 Sally groups and your dive bombers with a zero squadren will probably be sufficient for this strategy.


Feel free to try it out ... think you'll find that it takes more then you think to make a dent. I just ran a couple of turns worth with 3 db groups and 1 lb group and supply was still increasing, not decreasing.




moses -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/9/2005 10:01:00 PM)

Already tested it 5 or 6 months ago. Bombing strategy worked but was slow. With 18,000 added sp requirement odds are shifted in favor of Japan.

I think you're going to need some adjustments. I think most Chinese bases will be in the red before decemeber is out. I'll have to test it out. Just love playing with the numbers.[;)]




moses -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/9/2005 11:25:05 PM)

Ok I think it might be interesting and it may actually work the more I think about it. The key is that china has to lose some troops in order to get its supply accounts balanced.

I take on anyone but am looking for rules more similar to my game with WITP_DUDE or his game with Feinder. My rules are in my AAR. His are listed in the opponent wanted area. China only--one day turns. I'll be China.

Not really a competitive game. Just a test and depending on how it goes we'll continue or stop at some point.

If no takers I'll just do it head-head solitare starting tonight.




Mr.Frag -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/9/2005 11:54:25 PM)

quote:

If no takers I'll just do it head-head solitare starting tonight.


It would actually be more effective for you to play yourself and work both sides as hard as you can to exploit it in both directions including stripping garrison forces should you see fit.

If all this does is mean you have to strip the rear area garrisons and fix the bases up later after wiping China, we'll need to look at that aspect of it too.




moses -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/10/2005 12:36:46 AM)

OK I may try this. The way I see the game shaping up might make it difficult to do solitare.

Outline:

1.) Japan has to try and take Yenan which now will take more than 5 or 6 divisions. Probably 10-12.

2.) China will counterattack in central region. China should do something as casualties are actually good for China. Less mouths to feed.

3.) This may well create a tense situation which may not be well simulated in solitare mode. Cat and mouse situations are hard to do solitare.

4.) In the meantime Japan bombs chinese industry. The air war is another cat and mouse game. China can't defend every base every day.

Anyway I'll give it a shot.




Mr.Frag -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/10/2005 1:34:53 AM)

quote:

4.) In the meantime Japan bombs chinese industry. The air war is another cat and mouse game. China can't defend every base every day.


Yep, but at the same time ... China should be doing their own dirty deeds to screw up any *soon* to be Japan's industry.

Remember to turn OFF repairs for China and any form of base expansion ... who cares if the industry is destroyed when Japan gets it, all the better! [;)]

Keeping engineers in bases until they fall is another thing ... bonus industry damage against Japan.

China's airforce should basically remain grounded until supply dictates otherwise. Aircraft eat supply that is needed by the grunts. Grunts win the war, not the aircraft. Use them extremely sparingly as the situation arises. Remember that a size 1 runway is all that is needed for CAP ... don't build 'em up for Japan. Remember that CAP eats supply as does repairing aircraft. Use only when it is worth using. Better to burn your troops.

Play China like you have been getting your butt kicked for years, not like the war just started.




moses -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/10/2005 5:35:22 PM)

OK I started but didn't get much done (just JP first turn) as I had a lot of PBEM to do last night and wife required maintenance.

I'm going to track free supply at all Chines bases as I think this will be the main scenario problem.

Honestly with the Changes that appear to be going into 1.5 the land theaters may well be fixed without the OOB changes. Its possible the OOB changes will cause us to overshoot and create the great Chinese offensive of 1942.




Ron Saueracker -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/10/2005 6:03:11 PM)

Question. Is this scenario being used as a test of the combat system prior to fixing it or is it just a test to see how far the OOB needs to be "tweaked" to keep Japan from running amok despite the inadequate land combat model.

Just noticed you guys are testing a tweak which may alleviate the nasty ability of attackers not sufferring losses if combat odds are favourable. Good. Regardless of how much disparity there is with forces, at this scale the defender should always get a defensive fire phase vs the attacker.




Black Cat -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/10/2005 6:17:26 PM)

Another Question.

Is this being done to balance it in PBEM play or VS the AI play ??




moses -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/10/2005 6:21:55 PM)

Its under 1.4 prior to any changes which why I made my last comment above. None of this may be needed as they it appears that the land combat system is being seriously looked at and may well give acceptable results without any OOB fiddling.

In any case I'll just play with this as I want to see how the supply works.




moses -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/10/2005 6:24:33 PM)

I'm sure it for PBEM. I don't think anyone thinks China AI has a chance in the world against Japan. I havn't hardly seen this even discussed.

Although in the end if they fix land combat this may not be a bad scenario to play as Japan vs. the AI. Maybe AI will have a chance with the larger forces.




moses -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/12/2005 7:15:55 PM)

Changsa has already been reduced by 185 resourses. I finnally brought in the AVG and the results are listed below. My Nates were crushed but I shouldn't have had them flying anyway. Against the zero's the P-40's have no chance to stop the bombing attack. By the end of Dec Changsa will not be producing much.

The fighting in Yenan is working about right. I'm sending a bunch of Jap Divisions there to see if it can be taken. I've tested various combinations of attacks at Yenan and it appears to be a stalmate with the forces immediately at hand. I'll see how it goes when the bulk of the Japanese force arrives. For now they bombard.

Supply is still the main concern as China still has dozens of units in the red.


Day Air attack on Changsha , at 47,36--12 Dec 42.

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 26
Ki-27 Nate x 32
Ki-30 Ann x 38
Ki-21 Sally x 31

Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 46

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
Ki-27 Nate: 62 destroyed--Nates are worthless against any real fighter.
Ki-30 Ann: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-40B Tomahawk: 45 destroyed, 3 damaged--17 killed actual
Resources hits 31




Mr.Frag -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/12/2005 10:18:36 PM)

Red or Pink?




moses -> RE: Scenario 17 ... for your comments (2/12/2005 10:30:41 PM)

The units are in red. The problem is when you raised unit strenth it automatically increased the units supply requirement but no extra supply was added to units. So as soon as you load up the game all the upgraded units have supply requirements of roughly 900 and roughly 600 on-hand. As soon as the get in the littlest bit of combat (like they see a plane) their supply requirements go to around 1500.

Now since most of the bases are yellow and look to stay that way for awhile very few of these units have drawn supply. Thankfully the units in Yenan have all done so (have no idea why just these) but the ones in Changsa are still sitting at 600 supply with daily requirements of 1500.

Overall free base supply is slowly rising. Started with 83,258 and checked after 8 days and it was 87,258. So in the long run this may not be a problem. In the short run I have lots of units that I'm afraid to send to fight.

Everywhere else in the game you start out with each unit having enough supply to meet its monthly non-combat supply requirement. I'm not sure why these units shouldn't be balanced out in a similar way. Unless the goal is to prevent China from counterattacking early on.

EDIT: Just loaded game back up and made sure: Definately red.




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