Matrix would be nowhere without SP (Full Version)

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Skotty702 -> Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 4:45:10 AM)

Wow, all the piss and venom displayed out here has me rather disappointed. I do appreciate all the work that has gone into these projects. And as work, I mean work that has been done by both designers AND PLAYERS.

IMO, Matrix would not be a "business" were it not for the intial time AND $$$ spent by the SP community.

What I have witnessed here over last couple of months strikes me with the trapping of flippant disregard of the customer. I KNOW SPWAW is FREE, but if Matrix wishes to continue to work on it, do it right or not at all. I know "right" is a subjective slippery slope. However, it appears that SPWAW has been open to a lot of group input without the will or decisiveness to deal with "group".

I know this is a bit of a pointless rant, but as a longtime player in SP community, I don't like to see what's been occuring here of late.[:o]




Rune Iversen -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 4:54:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skotty702

Wow, all the piss and venom displayed out here has me rather disappointed. I do appreciate all the work that has gone into these projects. And as work, I mean work that has been done by both designers AND PLAYERS.

IMO, Matrix would not be a "business" were it not for the intial time AND $$$ spent by the SP community.

What I have witnessed here over last couple of months strikes me with the trapping of flippant disregard of the customer. I KNOW SPWAW is FREE, but if Matrix wishes to continue to work on it, do it right or not at all. I know "right" is a subjective slippery slope. However, it appears that SPWAW has been open to a lot of group input without the will or decisiveness to deal with "group".

I know this is a bit of a pointless rant, but as a longtime player in SP community, I don't like to see what's been occuring here of late.[:o]


I can only concur.
I would wait and see what 8.2 brings though. If it is overwhelmingly positive, then good. If otherwise, well.....




KG Erwin -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 4:56:33 AM)

OK, Skotty , quit beating around the bush. What do you really mean?[:)]
Do you play SPWaW? Do you like it? have you played a Mega Campaign? How do you mean the consumers have been disregarded? I'm not being flippant with you. I'd like to know.




rich12545 -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 5:04:26 AM)

NO. DON'T TELL HIM. I'M WARNING YOU.

YOU'LL GET YOUR THREAD LOCKED DOWN. I KNOW.
IT HAPPENED TO ME.




Jeff Norton -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 5:09:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skotty702

Wow, all the piss and venom displayed out here has me rather disappointed. I do appreciate all the work that has gone into these projects. And as work, I mean work that has been done by both designers AND PLAYERS.

IMO, Matrix would not be a "business" were it not for the intial time AND $$$ spent by the SP community.

What I have witnessed here over last couple of months strikes me with the trapping of flippant disregard of the customer. I KNOW SPWAW is FREE, but if Matrix wishes to continue to work on it, do it right or not at all. I know "right" is a subjective slippery slope. However, it appears that SPWAW has been open to a lot of group input without the will or decisiveness to deal with "group".

I know this is a bit of a pointless rant, but as a longtime player in SP community, I don't like to see what's been occuring here of late.[:o]

No offense, but 'Go tell it to the Marines!'[:D]




pasternakski -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 5:10:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skotty702

What I have witnessed here over last couple of months strikes me with the trapping of flippant disregard of the customer. I KNOW SPWAW is FREE, but


What?




M4Jess -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 5:18:52 AM)

M4 Jess reporting in...

Oh please! [>:]
rich12545 I am soooo sick of your BS..at first I was on your side..then you became a "Oh-well" kind of thought, with a touch of "he has a point" but of late..I think you are a child and in need of some Prosaic, what the hell is your obsession? Hell even I have a life outside all of this..but IMO you are a trouble maker and a real life sissy..I would have banned you tonight if I had the power. And Rune Iversen, I dont know know you and have not read many of your post, But I really hope you are not on rich12545 side....[>:]as far as Skotty702, would you please tell us more?




Rune Iversen -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 5:23:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: M4Jess

M4 Jess reporting in...

Oh please! [>:]
rich12545 I am soooo sick of your BS..at first I was on your side..then you became a "Oh-well" kind of thought, with a touch of "he has a point" but of late..I think you are a child and in need of some Prosaic, what the hell is your obsession? Hell even I have a life outside all of this..but IMO you are a trouble maker and a real life sissy..I would have banned you tonight if I had the power. And Rune Iversen, I dont know know you and have not read many of your post, But I really hope you are not on rich12545 side....[>:]as far as Skotty702, would you please tell us more?


Well, I might be or I might not. Only I will decide that =)




Skotty702 -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 5:25:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

OK, Skotty , quit beating around the bush. What do you really mean?[:)]
Do you play SPWaW? Do you like it? have you played a Mega Campaign? How do you mean the consumers have been disregarded? I'm not being flippant with you. I'd like to know.


I do play SPWAW and have played it since v 1. I play SPWW2 and SPMBT. I play SP1/SP2/SP3/SP3MODENRA and have even played Scott Grasse's SP3 50m conversion back in the Steel Lightning days. I own MCLV, MC Watchtower and the north African MC. I even own a Matrix Desert Fox T-shirt. I LOVE Steel Panther no matter what guise or form it takes.

What I am getting at is the latest back and forth here on the forum. While I make no major assumptions of the details of the goings on with Matrix and the current state of SPWAW, from the tip of the iceberg I can see things just look a little fishy. MCLV thread "HEY" and the recently locked "Hmmmm" thread is what I am pointing too. There seems to be an air of dishonesty and indecisivness going on out here lately.

I am a self addmitted SP addict. It is the ONLY game system I play on my PC now. I PBEM like a madman, look at my recorded games at theblitz.org website. I play at least 5 hours a day. So I may be a bit zealous about SP more so than average player. What I don't like around is the apparent ATTITUDE towards the SP community conveyed by the SOME of the Matrix SPWAW folks to SOME of the members to the SP community. And no, I am not going to list individuals in either camp, the end user can find out the situation themselve by reading the last 3 months of forum posts.

It seems to me that v8 of SPWAW opened an unintended can of worms.




Wild Bill -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 5:30:45 AM)

I'm not part of Matrix per se, but I have worked for and with the organization since its inception and long before.

When you say, SKotty, from what you have "observed," Matrix has taken a flippant attitude towards its supporters. I guess my question is a request for some specifics here in order to be able to respond. In other words, what is it that you've noticed in particular that indicates a spirit of disdain or indifference to the public?

You are right, designers AND testers (let's not forget the lifeblood of any successful scenario design), programmers, musicians, artists and writers have all made wonderful contributions. And most of it was done gratis. That is important to note. I could make you a list...a very long one, of people who have given many hours of their time to make and improve SPWAW.

I have received some recompense for the Mega Campaigns I did. But everything else I have done with Matrix and SPWAW, including the other dozen or so campaigns and around 150 scenarios plus the writing of some of the manual itself were offered freely. My time spent in helping to collate, improve, enhance and make available the game has been for free. I can't even begin to calculate the time I have spent on these projects at no charge, but without exaggeration, they were thousands of hours of my life that I'll never get back and which I could have used for so many other things.

I could say the same of so many. If I start naming them, I'll forget someone.

The players have reaped the benefits of these thousands of hours of free labor. The only cost they have incurred is the time spent downloading.

And we have folks who even send copies of SPWAW burned on a CD for only the cost of postage.

To be honest, Skotty, I don't think the players have been treated badly or flippantly at all. If anything, being so attentive to the wishes of the players has cost additional hundreds of hours of work.

Unless you are in the mix, you can't possibly know all that is involved.

I've worked with six gaming companies in the last ten years. Matrix Games is the ONLY one that really showed concern for what the public wanted, who listened and responded to what the public said. That in itself tells us that Matrix Games is different.

But WHAT gaming company can accomodate every wish and desire, opinion or even whim that comes from the public? It just ain't gonna happen. It can't happen.

Please one, offend another. We all know that. So the effort has been to make it as right as possible, make the majority happy, and try to be understanding of all.

That in my mind is not flippant at all, but rather a very giving spirit, more than I've ever seen before in the wargaming community.

Wild Bill




M4Jess -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 5:35:52 AM)

may I please point out...

NONE OF US WOULD BE HERE RIGHT NOW WITHOUT MATRIX! [:-]

There would be no SPWAW...NOTA, No MCs...nothing...........

I guess my mommas rule of "never look a gift horse in the mouth" sets in..

I just got a PM from a old frienD he said...

"wow, as your friend, i gotta say that what you said to rich was really not nice. i don't like his style, but he got his thread locked down, after being LIED to and LED on for YEARS. surely that earns him a little consideration. used to be that the liars and thieves were the bad guys."

I guess he is correct, but for the love of god man! Move on!

Im done with this....




rich12545 -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 5:39:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: M4Jess

M4 Jess reporting in...

Oh please! [>:]
rich12545 I am soooo sick of your BS..at first I was on your side..then you became a "Oh-well" kind of thought, with a touch of "he has a point" but of late..I think you are a child and in need of some Prosaic, what the hell is your obsession? Hell even I have a life outside all of this..but IMO you are a trouble maker and a real life sissy..I would have banned you tonight if I had the power. And Rune Iversen, I dont know know you and have not read many of your post, But I really hope you are not on rich12545 side....[>:]as far as Skotty702, would you please tell us more?


You're sick of it?
Oh, well.
What I'm sick of is an unfinished game, promises of the game being finished, no progress reports for two years and a totally uncaring attitude from Brent Richards. So we're even. We're both sick of something.
Getting the game finished isn't an obsession. It's been an ongoing inquiry for almost two years. It comes up every so often, right after Brent had promised an update and then didn't deliver.
Here's the obsession. It's his attitude. The game isn't finished. We paid for it. And he doesn't give a sh*t.
The game won't be finished (barring a miracle). That's done. But Brent's "Screw the mclv buying public" attitude still galls me.
And if you don't like that then all I can say is "tough."




Goblin -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 5:43:55 AM)

Alot of what he is refering to is the new policy of deleting/altering/locking threads, WB. I feel that way too. It has gooten bad enough that I do not bother posting, and have requested KG just delete my account. Why bother with a forum if what you read may or may not have come from the person who posted it, or whatever you post might be gone or altered? Might as well just have one person post every message here. Then there will be no dissenting opinions, unwanted forum members, or members voicing their frustration.

As for the Matrix part of it? Yes, I notice it somewhat. In the fact that they now support this type of forum, and ignore promises made to forum members, without even having the individual that broke the promise post about it. It used to be that people that broke promises and failed to honor their obligations were the ones in the wrong. Keep in mind also that people view the OOB team as reps of Matrix. Their disregard of reported errors, even before release, and of input from several members, no matter how politely or with how much info, does cause people to come away with a certain feel.

The sad part is, I was hoping like he!! to get another shot at being on a MC team again. But I have now irritated the wrong people, and can't even get a forum posts responded to. I had to speak up though.


Goblin




rich12545 -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 5:53:39 AM)

Jess, yeah I have moved on.
But it seems like there's always someone's post to reply to.
AND I REALLY DON'T LIKE MY THREAD LOCKED DOWN. THAT WAS TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR.

And can somebody PLEASE tell me how many megs are in the mcse download?




M4Jess -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 5:55:41 AM)

Rich needs a hug! [sm=00000947.gif] I dont think you are right in this..I just dont..and while I care for my friend who PM'd I dont think he is correct either..

I still have to ask...you paid 20 somthing bucks for the MC..hell I got that in the first 24 hours!

I have many games that need up-grades..and most of them cost $40 plus..and I have asked for them..I never even get an answer..

Bottom line the game plays well...chit! great! Chit, play it and give us a DAR ..do you even play at all?

DO YOU EVEN PLAY AT ALL?




rich12545 -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 6:24:26 AM)

Jess,
Big sigh.
As I've said several times, I originally bought the megas more to support Matrix in its spwaw effort which I thing is incredible. I didn't know if I'd ever have the time to play them but I get so much enjoyment playing scenarios I felt I wanted to support the game financially and that's the only way. As far as mclv is concerned the east front is really the one I am least interested of all the ww2 areas. Lately I find my time starting to open up and I can start thinking about playing campaigns. I want to play a couple of regular ones (including your commandos one which looks very interesting) before I tackle a mega. Mclv won't be my first. Probably Watchtower, maybe Screaming Eagles.

I didn't start out making a big deal out of this mclv update. Couple of years ago I remembered Brent said he was going to do one and I hadn't seen it or any progress reports. So I posted and asked about it. He replied and said it would be done by the end of the year 2002. When it wasn't done and he hadn't posted about it I began wondering so I posted again and he said it would be done by summmer 2003. When it wasn't and he didn't post about it I began getting pissed. Not so much about the update but about his broken promises and his non caring attitude. So here we go again. It's not going to be done. I'm through inquiring. I'll get around to playing mclv someday.

And thanks for the hug.[:D]




Wild Bill -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 6:58:17 AM)

Answer for Rich, about 60 megs, my friend. It comes pretty loaded. It is the biggest Mega Campaign to date, even bigger than Lost Victories, in terms of files included. There are nearly 2000 files, counting 142 possible scenarios, hundreds of articles, pictures same-same, and a host of other good things.

It is a different approach using the MC concept, different from the first three. That part you probably already know.

In my mind, it is the most up to date best MC we have...NOT because I did it, but I had perhaps the most fantastic team of testers, designers, writers, artists, techincal help, musicians and the cooperation of folks like Don Malarkey (living 101st paratrooper, depicted in Band of Brothers) Mark Bando and other members of the military.

Your collection won't be complete without it.

Wild Bill




rich12545 -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 7:09:51 AM)

Yeah, I'll be getting it I think this week. I know it's called Steel Panthers but I'm partial to scenarios that are mostly infantry. Wow. 60 megs. Definitely a getright overnighter. Thanks for the info. [:'(]




Wild Bill -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 7:33:34 AM)

Good! MC-NA and MC-LV are heavy on tanks, and rightly so.

MC-W and this newest MC are heavy on infantry, again, rightfully so.

But MC-Se will give you exactly what you expressed, dynamic, action-filled scenarios with infantry in about every situation you can imagine. Of course there are tanks. How could you do fighting in the Bulge or the advance up the highway in Market Garden and even the fighting for Normandy without them?

BUT...here is where Steel "Panthers" really shines. You get to see the full potential of the dogface, the Grenadier, in dozens and dozens of fights, ranging from Platoon to battalion level.

Most of the scenarios range in size from 10-15 turns, but there are some biggies with usually an alternate smaller scenario so marked.

You have perhaps more choice in this one than ever before.

Let me know your thoughts once you have it Rich. I'd be very interested in that.

Wild Bill




Tombstone -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 7:50:19 AM)

Hey Jess, *snicker*, I just have to quote you on this, "...I think you are a child and in need of some Prosaic..." HONESTLY, I think rich has PLENTY of prosaic dont you think?

Tomo




wulfir -> PBEM (3/9/2004 2:10:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skotty702

I PBEM like a madman...


Routed my FJ from Ortona, he did... [:@]
...and now he's cleaning out the Italians from the desert.
Ouch 15mm BESA! [X(] [;)]




robot -> RE: PBEM (3/9/2004 4:28:33 PM)

Dont want to start a bunch of controversy here. But im confused about this. Rich if you havent even played the mc in question how do you know it isnt finished. Is there something wrong with the way it plays. Im sorry i dont have it yet so i dont know. Im on a very limited income so am unable to purchase it at this time or back when it came out.




Alby -> RE: PBEM (3/9/2004 4:31:22 PM)

All I know is without Matrix, I would not be playing any Steel Panthers at all, as none of the DOS versions (sp3, spww2, spmbt) work on my XP computer.
in fact when I tried spww2, it damn near crashed my video card!!!
Thanks for SPWAW matrix.




David Heath -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 5:07:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

quote:

ORIGINAL: M4Jess

M4 Jess reporting in...

Oh please! [>:]
rich12545 I am soooo sick of your BS..at first I was on your side..then you became a "Oh-well" kind of thought, with a touch of "he has a point" but of late..I think you are a child and in need of some Prosaic, what the hell is your obsession? Hell even I have a life outside all of this..but IMO you are a trouble maker and a real life sissy..I would have banned you tonight if I had the power. And Rune Iversen, I dont know know you and have not read many of your post, But I really hope you are not on rich12545 side....[>:]as far as Skotty702, would you please tell us more?


You're sick of it?
Oh, well.
What I'm sick of is an unfinished game, promises of the game being finished, no progress reports for two years and a totally uncaring attitude from Brent Richards. So we're even. We're both sick of something.
Getting the game finished isn't an obsession. It's been an ongoing inquiry for almost two years. It comes up every so often, right after Brent had promised an update and then didn't deliver.
Here's the obsession. It's his attitude. The game isn't finished. We paid for it. And he doesn't give a sh*t.
The game won't be finished (barring a miracle). That's done. But Brent's "Screw the mclv buying public" attitude still galls me.
And if you don't like that then all I can say is "tough."


Let me as President of Matrix make this very clear. It is my view that after talking to Brent there is NOTHING wrong with Lost Victories. Its works and plays fine.... Brent was considering and if anything was dum enough to post the fact that he wanted to add a few documents to the Lost Victories Mega Campaign. In his words a "Director's Cut" as one now sees for films. It did not and will not be happening. This is the end of the story. Rich12545 is the end of the story. I see nothing wrong with Brent attitude and I find many post from gamers in love with Lost Victories.

David




Goblin -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/9/2004 5:20:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grenadier
Regarding Directors Cuts. In the film world, we waited nearly 22 years before Robert Wise did the version of Star Trek, the Motion Picture he originally wanted to do and it took 12 years for Wolfgang Peterson to do his directors cut of Das Boot and 8 years for James cameron to redo Terminator 2. I promise I will not take that long[:)]



Thank you for the clarification of what Brent posted earlier, David. I am glad the matter seems settled now.



Goblin




rich12545 -> RE: PBEM (3/9/2004 7:38:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: robot

Dont want to start a bunch of controversy here. But im confused about this. Rich if you havent even played the mc in question how do you know it isnt finished. Is there something wrong with the way it plays. Im sorry i dont have it yet so i dont know. Im on a very limited income so am unable to purchase it at this time or back when it came out.


The reason I have been saying it isn't finished is because Brent has repeatedly said so. Three times he has promised he would come up with a final update by a certain time. It is only in the last few days the term "director's cut" has been introduced to soft soap the thing.

David, anybody who promises an update by a certain time and not only doesn't produce three times but doesn't even post about it has an attitude problem. If it's not going to be done then fine, all he has to do is say so and that's the end of it. The game is 99.999% done. It is playable without any bugs. All that's missing is a little historical data at the end. No problem. But his attitude tells me he doesn't give a sh*t about those who bought the game. And that's the way it is.

Now that you've said the update won't be done I can forget about it. This thing takes up way too much of my time anyway.




Warrior2 -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/10/2004 2:46:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skotty702

...flippant disregard of the customer. I KNOW SPWAW is FREE...


How does one manage to become a "customer" of a free product? Matrix-bashing is the rankest example of ingratitude I've seen in a long time.




Charles_22 -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/10/2004 4:56:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warrior

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skotty702

...flippant disregard of the customer. I KNOW SPWAW is FREE...


How does one manage to become a "customer" of a free product? Matrix-bashing is the rankest example of ingratitude I've seen in a long time.


OTOH, some complaints are directed towards "paid" products, such as the MC's (rich as an example, be his reasoning good or not). I realize you weren't being technical, but Matrix doesn't make just free products. Don't look at all complainers, as one might be wont to do, as somebody who complains about free products, as it's easy enough, for some reason, to link anything SPWAW, or anything Matrix with 'free', whereas it isn't necessarily.[:)]




Huffy -> RE: Matrix would be nowhere without SP (3/11/2004 12:37:07 AM)

Well,....Just my side of it, I've played from SP1 and on up...for many years...I have all the MC's, patches,....updates, and so on.
I thank all who have made the SPWAW game. I love to play it , some solo,...some on our LAN against each other. I wish I was able to do the number punching, graphic designing, prgramming stuff,media/music input,...and all the stuff I forgot.

I guess....thank you Matrix, volunteers, and the families who have lost time with the people who help this game to be here and improving. I have had many hours of fun and relaxation with it....and will continue to do so....
Just my thoughts...
Take care,
Huffy




Frank W. -> RE: PBEM (3/12/2004 10:43:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wulfir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skotty702

I PBEM like a madman...


Routed my FJ from Ortona, he did... [:@]
...and now he's cleaning out the Italians from the desert.
Ouch 15mm BESA! [X(] [;)]


mhh.. sounds interesting.

skotty: im at the blitz also.
we can play a game ! only H2H !




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