The trick of multiple attacks on one unit? (Full Version)

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Fred98 -> The trick of multiple attacks on one unit? (7/4/2003 8:46:12 AM)

I am aware that this is a vital tactic in the game. But I have never been very good at it.

If I find an enemy unit susceptible to attack, I rarely seem to have enough units nearby to make multiple attacks.

And on the rare occasions that I do, I find that the first group of attackers move up and put in an attack. But then they do not have enough movement points to withdraw so the second attack cannot go in.

For example, sometimes a unit can move over this terrain 6 hexes at normal movement speed. He moves forward 3 hexes, attacks and then cannot withdraw. I am not sure why that is.

And the last issue is that sometimes I plan ahead and have units in position to make 2 attacks.

But unfortunately, something inexplicable happens and the second force is not strong enough to get reasonable odds so I have to cancel the second attack.

What is the trick to making multiple attacks on one unit?

BrubakerII -> (7/4/2003 5:09:59 PM)

Hi Joe

Yes indeed multiple attacks are a very important part of the game and you will be delighted to know that they are even easier to accomplish in Korsun! The reason for this (I think) is the fact that there are more units on the board to move around (and at some points in mopre convined spaces) and also that in the right conditions can move longer distances. These two elements combined mean with a little careful planning multiple attacks are easier than in TAO.

Of course it goes without saying that this doesn't mean they are effective ;) You still need to plan them out effectively in order to achieve your desired results.

Out of interest the way I go about it is thus:

First of all I use the MAX button :eek: (yes I do) to see what the strongest odds available are in that attack and which units are providing them, and then I 'wind' the attack back from there using the principle that I will attack with the weakest units possible in order to achieve my initial aim. That of course leaves the strongest units available to conduct a second (or third!) attack. By weakest units I mean units that have a lower combat power.

Some other principles I keep in mind when attempting a multiple attack are:

  • try and move as few units as possible before conducting the initial attack. This then leaves more movement options open for a second attack.
  • Try and use the weaker artillery units first (provide less shifts). This then allows more choices later on.
  • STUDY THE TERRAIN! Did I yell loud enough? The easiest way to build a favorable odds ratio in an attack is to attack from a favorable direction. As we all know now from reading Chris and Rob's brilliant site there is an excellent right click tool available in KP that indicates by way of coloured arrows exactly which sides of a hex will provide shifts in an attack. So in a multiple attack I try and leave at least one unit unused in each favorable hex for the next attack. Savvy? So if there are multiple friendly units in each hex in an attack don't use ALL from one hex at a time, this leaves one to gain a shift next time.
  • When conducting overrun atttacks, again don't just max everything out! I like to get an overuun that only kills a unit and not forces it to retreat (a lower odds attack). This way you get multiple bites at it and can kill it as opposed to just pushing it backward.

    Anyway, these are just a few things I look for. Don't forget I am a very ordinary player :rolleyes:

    Out of interest the two best players I have come across for multiple attacks are:

  • The computer (because it has a maths co-pressor)
  • and Matthew Urch (who is a killer! Matthew you might have to change your name when joining a ladder )

    Hope this helps


  • Rob Gjessing -> (7/5/2003 6:03:52 AM)

    Hey this is an excellent thread thanks for starting it. Here are my thoughts..

    With overruns you will always be able to get multiple attacks - as thats the whole point of an overrun.. you dont lose your combat capability and can continue to attack with the same units! There are some slight exceptions to that rule though. If one of your overrun attacks results in a * loss, or a non loss to the defender then it is deemed that they repelled the attack.

    Generally with overruns I therefore always attack with MAX (but excluding ART, Leadership and Bombardment shifts).

    The other thing with overruns is if you do force a retreat on the enemy - and this is easy to do in Korsun Pocket where there is alot of clear terrain - the unit may retreat out of an overrun situation.

    In terms of normal multi attacks this is what I recommend:

    - Check the terrain! Attacking against a Town - forget it! Max it out and attack once!

    - Check the CRT's! This will give you an indication of what 'medium' odds you probably want to attack at.. because unless you have a superior amount of units that can attack, you generally wont be throwing down a 10-1 assault and expect to be able to give it another go. The AI, which I agree, is deadly with multi attacks, generally looks for about 8-1. I think 7-1 is even fair and even 6-1. I have even been known to have a shot at 4-1 odds depending upon the terrain.

    - I dont use my weakest units first.. I tend to try and use a mix of weak and stronger units in each attack.. but generally I make my first one the strongest attack. The reason I do this is simple - I think. You dont attack unless you expect to inflict losses.. and the losses you inflict will make the defender weaker.. which means you shouldnt need as much force to be used for the second attack.

    So my first assault is always the strongest one. 8-1 odds maybe. Subsequent attacks my also get you 8-1 odds because the defender is weaker.

    Infact have a look at the article I wrote on Wacht am Rhein titled [URL=]Forming the Attack[/URL].

    When I move units up to the first attack, I dont stack them all in the same hex, try and position them so they are attacking from different directions. Not only will it aid in the attack, but it will also wont close of any hexes for future movement because of stack limitations.

    The reason sometimes a unit with a total movement hex of 6 (say) can move 3 hexes forward to the attack, but then cant move back, has to do with the movement penalties associated with being in contact with the enemy and penalties associated with combat.

    Its not as easy to disengage from contact - esp if combat has just taken place. The way SSG have incorporated this into the game is quite accurate I think. And is more testimony to the quality of the games they make.

    Finally, before committing any units for the attack, inspect each unit, look at where they can move to, look plan what units you want to put where for each of your multi attacks. Right planning can often get you 3 assaults! And that usually means a dead defender.

    Of course, you need to use judgement - trying to chase that next multi attack can put your units in a bad position and create holes in your line..

    Good luck!

    BrubakerII -> (7/5/2003 7:49:57 AM)

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Rob Gjessing
    [B] You dont attack unless you expect to inflict losses.. and the losses you inflict will make the defender weaker.. which means you shouldnt need as much force to be used for the second attack.

    So my first assault is always the strongest one. 8-1 odds maybe. Subsequent attacks my also get you 8-1 odds because the defender is weaker. [/B][/QUOTE]

    Very good point Rob - one I overlooked. I guess I have been caught out too many times not killing enough in the first attack to get good odds in the second :(


    Andy Brown -> (7/7/2003 10:55:09 AM)

    So how does Automatic Victory (10-1) work now then?

    Fred98 -> (7/7/2003 12:05:13 PM)

    "So my first assault is always the strongest one. 8-1 odds maybe. Subsequent attacks my also get you 8-1 odds because the defender is weaker"

    In TAO2 the defender was not weaker in this situation. Perhaps this is a change for KP?

    e_barkmann -> (7/7/2003 1:36:25 PM)

    Joe -

    [QUOTE]In TAO2 the defender was not weaker in this situation. Perhaps this is a change for KP?[/QUOTE]

    if your first attack fails to do anything - of course. A defender will be weaker in a second attack only if the initial attack manages to knock off a step or two.

    Keep in mind the interesting situation in clear and forest terrain (generally), where a high odds attack will force a retreat - in the situation where you haven't surrounded the unit it may retreat out of combat distance, meaning that secondary attacks won't be able to come into play. Depending on the situation, you may want to attack at lower odds where there is a higher chance of a step loss rather than a retreat - conversely, there will also be a higher chance of more damage to the attacker....


    Overrun odds are determined by the individual terrain CRT and ground conditions. To qualify, all combined combat unit strength, excluding Artillery, Air and Barrage but including Leadership bonus if available, must be a certain odds or higher.

    SSG have also built in a gotcha, where certain lower odds overruns may fail to materialise if you roll too low, and so combat capability for the turn is nothing is necessarily guaranteed.

    Cheers Chris

    BrubakerII -> (7/7/2003 4:20:01 PM)

    This is correct. Actually the overrun feature is probably the most important to utilise in the game. I think Ian has highlighted that in the tutorial. For this reason: overuns do not expend combat power. Therefore, if say 10 units can conduct 10 functions in any given turn, then if say 3 of them can conduct an overrun, then effectively they can then have another function, effectively increasing your side's workload in any given turn (as per that example) by 33%!

    Sorry to be so analytical but that is the truth of it. In any given turn there are only so many units (x) that can conduct only so many operations (y) with only so many (z) results. By conducting overruns (?) the equation is effectively changed from x * y = z to (x+?) * y = z - an obviously greater return. Of course you still have to make effective decisions to make the results better ;)

    I am testing a scenario at present with Josan and we have the Combat Advisor turned off. I can tell you, it makes the game WAAAY harder. Obviously I had come to rely on it without even realising it.


    Rob Gjessing -> (7/7/2003 4:31:42 PM)

    Ha ha.. one does get used to the combat adviser.. and it can be an eye opener trying to play a game after you have become so used to it.

    One of the PBEM settings is for the combat adviser to be either on or off for the duration of the game. So players can agree to have it set off.

    Note, that some of the comps and tournaments that Chris and I will be hosting on our site will involve this setting to "off" :)

    Masters of the universe comps.. hey I wonder if any of the SSG boys will enter?

    Andy Brown -> (7/7/2003 5:20:09 PM)


    What sort of "certain odds or higher" are we talking about here?


    Rob Gjessing -> (7/7/2003 5:34:24 PM)

    Andy it depends upon the terrain that the unit is sitting in - so it will vary.

    For example, it may be 8-1 for Clear Terrain, 10-1+ for Forest and it may not be possible for Urban.

    Overruns as calculated based upon raw attack strength of the units attacking excluding any ART, Barrage Air shifts etc.

    BrubakerII -> (7/7/2003 6:00:35 PM)

    This is right Andy. Most terrain types in KP have an associated odds ratio that if reached or surpassed will allow overruns. These odds can be viewed from the menu. In addition, during a combat, if you right click in the area that shows current odds, you will get the following (example) display.


    In this example this shows you that although you currently have odds of 10-1 in operation (top line). This includes artillery however whioch is not counted for overruns. The raw odds used for overruns begin (above) at 2-1 and have incresed to 4-1 through legitimate means. The yellow line indicates an overrun is possible but requires 7-1. Some more work is to be done for this overrun to happen therefore. Inciodentally the line I like is the Strength one which tells you exactly how much more strength is needed to achieve another shift. In this case a unit of 8 or more added to the combat will lift the total raw odds to 5-1. Closer but not quite there :)


    Andy Brown -> (7/7/2003 6:13:22 PM)

    Thanks, lads. Most informative answers. This game really does tell you everything you need to know, doesn't it?

    e_barkmann -> (7/7/2003 7:54:05 PM)

    ...and as you will find, the overrun value will change for different ground conditions for the same CRT...

    so for Clear Terrain in the Ardennes scenario:


    on the left is the Frozen terrain overrun minimum odds, on the right is the Mud Terrain overrun minimum odds.

    It's easier to dig in when the ground isn't as hard as a rock!!

    and this one below is a nice touch:


    so if you ever have to defend on terrain such as clear or forest (clear should definitely be a no-no normally!), make sure you have at least one 3 step unit and an entrenched unit in the stack as it will prevent overruns (note that the 3 step unit does not have to be entrenched, just as long as one of the units in the stack is... so you could have a 3 step unentrenched unit and a one ot two step (eg) entrenched unit in the same hex and that would also validate the above exception to overrun).

    And that brings us to another point as per above - how would the attacker solve this particular problem? A double or triple attack, that's how - eg if it's just the one entrenched 3 step unit defending , big attack to knock off a strength point, then you might be able to get an overrun with the second group of attacking units - because the defender is now less than 3 steps and overruns are allowed!

    Man, this game is as deep as you want it to be.

    Or you can play it with beer and snax. But just make sure your opponent is too :-)


    Tbone3336 -> (7/8/2003 1:38:15 AM)

    Awesome info guys. I have one question, in your replay from Watch am Rhein, have there been any overrun attacks? I may have missed them or their implications.

    Rob Gjessing -> (7/8/2003 3:47:08 PM)

    Hey Tbone.. I think there have been a few overruns - but not many. Maybe early one against some single step support units. It all comes down to terrain really.. because of the terrain in the Ardennes, it can be harder to get an overrun.

    From the little experiance I have had at playing Korsun Pocket though.. where the terrain is very open and clear.. there are many opportunities for overruns - from both sides also - not just the Russians..

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