Lousy manual (Full Version)

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JPFisher55 -> Lousy manual (3/17/2019 9:42:59 PM)

The manual to this game leaves out a lot. I figured out the repair system. Also, I am pretty sure that task forces on human control will not repeat their mission after it is done and they are in their home port, but task forces on computer control will repeat their missions. Also, the computer does not seem to set sub patrols after the first day even if computer sub patrol preference is set to on.




Anachro -> RE: Lousy manual (3/17/2019 9:47:09 PM)

The manual is out-of-date/not up-to-date with changes made to the game through patches, etc. There was a community effort by Alfred I think to do a community-driven update to the manual, but I don't believe that went anywhere. I would recommend you read the many helpful threads here instead, such as the FAQ / Info for Newbs thread in the War Forum.

In regards, to your questions: never use AI control. It is lousy, especially for sub patrols. You should set them manually. Once set, patrols will be repeated by subs until they 1) run out of fuel (no fuel at home base, 2) are damaged enough to require repair at home, or 3) are sunk. They will perform the same patrol according to the coordinates you set until you change the patrol manually. As for task forces, you can set them to performs patrols that act in the same manner if you so wish.




warspite1 -> RE: Lousy manual (3/17/2019 9:54:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JPFisher55

The manual to this game leaves out a lot. I figured out the repair system. Also, I am pretty sure that task forces on human control will not repeat their mission after it is done and they are in their home port, but task forces on computer control will repeat their missions. Also, the computer does not seem to set sub patrols after the first day even if computer sub patrol preference is set to on.
warspite1

I completely agree. For such a complex game it is fair to say it is about as useful as a not very useful thing that has out-lived it's usefulness.

However, there is something much better. This forum. I found that a good many of the peeps on this forum were more than happy to help with queries and questions when I tried to get into the game.

So my advice would be read the manual, sure, but then ask questions of the forumites. One word of caution though. Don't ask Chickenboy for help - he's like Jon Snow; he knows nothing. If he offers advice, politely thank him for his response and then do the opposite.






Anachro -> RE: Lousy manual (3/17/2019 9:57:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I completely agree. For such a complex game it is fair to say it is about as useful as a not very useful thing that has out-lived it's usefulness.

However, there is something much better. This forum. I found that a good many of the peeps on this forum were more than happy to help with queries and questions when I tried to get into the game.

So my advice would be read the manual, sure, but then ask questions of the forumites. One word of caution though. Don't ask Chickenboy for help - he's like Jon Snow; he knows nothing. If he offers advice, politely thank him for his response and then do the opposite.


My method for learning the game: don't read the manual at all, read the forums instead, and play a PBEM using the Guadalcanal scenario. Learn as you go. Also, Saudaukar's AAR/Tutorial for playing the Allies in an AI game is a good learning tool.




warspite1 -> RE: Lousy manual (3/17/2019 10:16:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I completely agree. For such a complex game it is fair to say it is about as useful as a not very useful thing that has out-lived it's usefulness.

However, there is something much better. This forum. I found that a good many of the peeps on this forum were more than happy to help with queries and questions when I tried to get into the game.

So my advice would be read the manual, sure, but then ask questions of the forumites. One word of caution though. Don't ask Chickenboy for help - he's like Jon Snow; he knows nothing. If he offers advice, politely thank him for his response and then do the opposite.


My method for learning the game: don't read the manual at all, read the forums instead, and play a PBEM using the Guadalcanal scenario. Learn as you go. Also, Saudaukar's AAR/Tutorial for playing the Allies in an AI game is a good learning tool.

warspite1

Well I think one should go through the motions as there is always some people who will give it the RTFM routine (which I can understand to an extent) - and it does at least give some information - albeit at a very high level. But your advice carries more weight than mine as you are a player of the game.




Anachro -> RE: Lousy manual (3/17/2019 10:21:33 PM)

I use the manual more as a reference for various mechanics. i.e. I was seeking to understand just how much fuel/endurance my carriers would burn up while I was doing a high speed maneuver, so I went into the book to find the specific mechanics/math regarding how ship fuel/endurance is consumed. Using that, I was able to calculate what my task force's fuel and endurance would be the next turn (would be disastrous if they ended up out of fuel). For learning the game and the UI, just playing it is better than reading the manual, which is "high level" as you mention.




BillBrown -> RE: Lousy manual (3/17/2019 11:31:34 PM)

Interesting take. I played PacWar, UV, WitP and then witP:AE. When I got AE I read the manual from front to back. I then read it a second time with the game open and
compared the manual to the game. Only then did I start a game against the AI.

I do know that the many patches have added a number of items that are not in the manual and I do believe a few things work a bit different now, but the manual is still
appropriate reading. Either asking or searching the forums can answer questions that do not seem to be covered in the manual. Also note that not everything was meant
to be presented in the manual.




alanschu -> RE: Lousy manual (3/18/2019 2:22:10 AM)

I find WITP allied game to be a reasonably good way to "learn the mechanics." I did it with the original, and my not knowing what to do exactly meant I made mistakes and couldn't immediately deal with the Japanese advances. But by 1943 I was getting the hang of things and could push back pretty well :P




JPFisher55 -> RE: Lousy manual (3/18/2019 3:39:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

The manual is out-of-date/not up-to-date with changes made to the game through patches, etc. There was a community effort by Alfred I think to do a community-driven update to the manual, but I don't believe that went anywhere. I would recommend you read the many helpful threads here instead, such as the FAQ / Info for Newbs thread in the War Forum.

In regards, to your questions: never use AI control. It is lousy, especially for sub patrols. You should set them manually. Once set, patrols will be repeated by subs until they 1) run out of fuel (no fuel at home base, 2) are damaged enough to require repair at home, or 3) are sunk. They will perform the same patrol according to the coordinates you set until you change the patrol manually. As for task forces, you can set them to performs patrols that act in the same manner if you so wish.


I'm sorry, but my experience with the game does not support this view. My subs on human control perform their mission, then when they reach home port (after running bingo on fuel or winchester on weapons), they just sit at the port. When I assign them a patrol zone and set the sub patrol to computer control, it seems to repeat its mission.

This seems to hold for asw missions and most other missions.




BillBrown -> RE: Lousy manual (3/18/2019 3:59:05 AM)

If you give them a destination hex, they will do as you say. If you give them patrol orders, then they will return back after refueling and/or rearming.




Anachro -> RE: Lousy manual (3/18/2019 4:00:05 AM)

Do you have a sub tender to refill their torpedoes and/or is the port big enough to support re-arming? There is a guide to the various tenders in a thread in the war forum.

Also, you don't need to turn the sub onto AI control after setting up patrol. Leave it on manual control.




Canoerebel -> RE: Lousy manual (3/18/2019 4:04:17 AM)

I've been playing this game and its ancestors (WitP and UV) for 17 years. I've never read the manual. (Some of you will now interject, "Well, that explains some things....")

If you come equipped with a love for and knowledge of the Pacific War, the game is amazingly intuitive. You know that the Japanese are the aggressors early, that losing carriers is a bad thing, that sinking enemy carriers is a good thing, and that Hawaii is more important than Samoa. So you begin small, playing Guadalcanal or some-such against another newbie or a patient veteran and you start to learn. You make a zillion mistakes. You read the forum and pick up tips from the incredible Peanut Gallery that inhabits these parts. And you find that it's worth it because you plan to be engaged in the game for years - indefinitely! - forever! So it doesn't matter if the learning curve is steep. In fact, that's an attribute, because that means the game isn't likely to grow stale.

And you're careful about disagreeing with veteran players, because you know they typically know what they're talking about. Like Anachro. He knows what he's talking about. He's played a long time. He reads. He contributes. He's built up a large reservoir of good will.

And he's right - you never put subs on computer control. You mostly set them to patrol. When they run low on fuel or ammo, or incure moderate damage, they'll retire to port to replenish/repair. If repairs aren't necessary, they'll return to their patrolling station, just exactly as you wanted. And just like Anachro said they would.

The problem you have is that you probably didn't set your subs to "Patrol." You probably used "Remain on Station." Because the "Patrol" functions works perfectly and contrary to what you're describing.




Roger Neilson 3 -> RE: Lousy manual (3/18/2019 4:34:34 AM)

Manual? There's a manual? Why didn't anyone tell me??????


Roger




JPFisher55 -> RE: Lousy manual (3/18/2019 3:13:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've been playing this game and its ancestors (WitP and UV) for 17 years. I've never read the manual. (Some of you will now interject, "Well, that explains some things....")

If you come equipped with a love for and knowledge of the Pacific War, the game is amazingly intuitive. You know that the Japanese are the aggressors early, that losing carriers is a bad thing, that sinking enemy carriers is a good thing, and that Hawaii is more important than Samoa. So you begin small, playing Guadalcanal or some-such against another newbie or a patient veteran and you start to learn. You make a zillion mistakes. You read the forum and pick up tips from the incredible Peanut Gallery that inhabits these parts. And you find that it's worth it because you plan to be engaged in the game for years - indefinitely! - forever! So it doesn't matter if the learning curve is steep. In fact, that's an attribute, because that means the game isn't likely to grow stale.

And you're careful about disagreeing with veteran players, because you know they typically know what they're talking about. Like Anachro. He knows what he's talking about. He's played a long time. He reads. He contributes. He's built up a large reservoir of good will.

And he's right - you never put subs on computer control. You mostly set them to patrol. When they run low on fuel or ammo, or incure moderate damage, they'll retire to port to replenish/repair. If repairs aren't necessary, they'll return to their patrolling station, just exactly as you wanted. And just like Anachro said they would.

The problem you have is that you probably didn't set your subs to "Patrol." You probably used "Remain on Station." Because the "Patrol" functions works perfectly and contrary to what you're describing.


I set them to patrol. They seem to patrol once when on human control.




Canoerebel -> RE: Lousy manual (3/18/2019 3:44:28 PM)

They will always return to their patrol station - as long, that is, as your port has sufficient fuel and ammo to replenish them. They aren't going to venture forward without fuel or ammo. So that may be what hindered you.

For instance, if you're using Midway as a forward sub patrol base, keeping fuel there can be a challenge and you'll need an AS or AKE or AE to replenish torpedoes. If Midway runs short of fuel, your returning sub won't be able to refuel and thus will simply sit there.

The reason for the failure to return to patrol station may elude the newcomer, simply because there are so many elements involved. But after playing the game awhile, these things become routine.

The patrol routine works flawslessly. :)




BBfanboy -> RE: Lousy manual (3/18/2019 4:25:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JPFisher55


I set them to patrol. They seem to patrol once when on human control.

This implies that normally you were playing with the AI in control of the subs? If so, that would explain why the Patrol routine (player controlled) did not return the sub to the PZ - the AI had other "ideas" which usually means it sets a new, random PZ every time it sets out from port.




tarkalak -> RE: Lousy manual (3/18/2019 4:31:03 PM)

I read the entire "cut down" manual, the one that you could find with google before buying the game, but I doubt I will have the time and patience to read the full thing.




HansBolter -> RE: Lousy manual (3/18/2019 4:54:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JPFisher55


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've been playing this game and its ancestors (WitP and UV) for 17 years. I've never read the manual. (Some of you will now interject, "Well, that explains some things....")

If you come equipped with a love for and knowledge of the Pacific War, the game is amazingly intuitive. You know that the Japanese are the aggressors early, that losing carriers is a bad thing, that sinking enemy carriers is a good thing, and that Hawaii is more important than Samoa. So you begin small, playing Guadalcanal or some-such against another newbie or a patient veteran and you start to learn. You make a zillion mistakes. You read the forum and pick up tips from the incredible Peanut Gallery that inhabits these parts. And you find that it's worth it because you plan to be engaged in the game for years - indefinitely! - forever! So it doesn't matter if the learning curve is steep. In fact, that's an attribute, because that means the game isn't likely to grow stale.

And you're careful about disagreeing with veteran players, because you know they typically know what they're talking about. Like Anachro. He knows what he's talking about. He's played a long time. He reads. He contributes. He's built up a large reservoir of good will.

And he's right - you never put subs on computer control. You mostly set them to patrol. When they run low on fuel or ammo, or incure moderate damage, they'll retire to port to replenish/repair. If repairs aren't necessary, they'll return to their patrolling station, just exactly as you wanted. And just like Anachro said they would.

The problem you have is that you probably didn't set your subs to "Patrol." You probably used "Remain on Station." Because the "Patrol" functions works perfectly and contrary to what you're describing.


I set them to patrol. They seem to patrol once when on human control.



How did you send them to 'patrol'?

Patrolling is a distinct set of orders and has a defined meaning in game terms.
Patrolling is a form of computer control accessed in a very different way than the Player Control/Computer Control/Continuous Supply clickable yellow text.

I'm not at home and in front of the game where I could grab screen shots to better explain.

The patrolling interface is accessed on the second page of the TF interface, a page you may not know exists.
To the right of the TF picture there are several lines of yellow (clickable) text one of which will take you to teh second page of the TF interface. There you can set waypoints, give orders to follow, meet etc., establish threat tolerances AND establish Patrol patterns, either by letting the tactical AI lay out a pattern or by individually assigning up to three hexes to establish a patrol pattern. You can control number of days on station at each hex and if refueling will be allowed and to what degree (in case you establish one of the hexes in a port).




RangerJoe -> RE: Lousy manual (3/18/2019 5:26:14 PM)

You can also set fewer patrol hexes to just one or two. If you want to cover an approach vector, have you subs patrol just one hex but blanket the area with subs. Set the appropriate aggression level and wait for the enemy to enter your skirmish line and be detected. Or just check the DL to see the increase, decrease, and the locations of your detected subs and you can even follow a task force just from the patrolling planes. Maybe not the specific hex, but the general area that the task force is in.




zuluhour -> RE: Lousy manual (3/21/2019 7:57:48 PM)

I use the manual often. Alfred has expounded upon it a great deal. I use the manual as "whats there" not a how to.

ps. My biggest complaint regarding the manual is the %$#@ glue they used to bind mine. It's more of a leaflet now. [8D]




BillBrown -> RE: Lousy manual (3/21/2019 9:13:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I use the manual often. Alfred has expounded upon it a great deal. I use the manual as "whats there" not a how to.

ps. My biggest complaint regarding the manual is the %$#@ glue they used to bind mine. It's more of a leaflet now. [8D]


I use the PDF version they provided, I find it more useful since I can search it digitally.




BBfanboy -> RE: Lousy manual (3/21/2019 9:39:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I use the manual often. Alfred has expounded upon it a great deal. I use the manual as "whats there" not a how to.

ps. My biggest complaint regarding the manual is the %$#@ glue they used to bind mine. It's more of a leaflet now. [8D]


I use the PDF version they provided, I find it more useful since I can search it digitally.


You like running your digits over things, don't you Bill! [:D]




rustysi -> RE: Lousy manual (3/22/2019 7:18:01 PM)

quote:

And he's right - you never put subs on computer control. You mostly set them to patrol. When they run low on fuel or ammo, or incure moderate damage, they'll retire to port to replenish/repair. If repairs aren't necessary, they'll return to their patrolling station, just exactly as you wanted. And just like Anachro said they would.

The problem you have is that you probably didn't set your subs to "Patrol." You probably used "Remain on Station." Because the "Patrol" functions works perfectly and contrary to what you're describing.


quote:

The patrol routine works flawslessly.


+1





rustysi -> RE: Lousy manual (3/22/2019 7:24:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tarkalak

I read the entire "cut down" manual, the one that you could find with google before buying the game, but I doubt I will have the time and patience to read the full thing.


TBH, if you have neither the time or patience to 'read the full thing' you will continue to take longer to figure out the game. No matter what, the manual is required reading. It has much more info and is much more relevant than those that don't read it realize.

I've read it at least three times, and am about due for another, and I've been at the 'beast' heavily for at least the last five years.




rustysi -> RE: Lousy manual (3/22/2019 7:27:25 PM)

quote:

My biggest complaint regarding the manual is the %$#@ glue they used to bind mine. It's more of a leaflet now.


Hehe.[:D] Mine too.




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