Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (Full Version)

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Technopiper -> Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/12/2019 1:21:08 AM)

Hi everyone, my first post. In Coral Sea my carrier TF crossed path with enemy carrier TF: they ended up switching positions with each other during the span of a turn. That doesn't seem realistic to me. Carriers don't sail right into each other, that's not how they fight. In one game two carrier TFs even engaged each other in surface battle. No damage as both quickly disengaged. The problem seems to be the WEGO system. I suspect it would be less apparent in waters less confined than the Coral Sea. Not a complaint as I understand every simulation has limitations, and I enjoy the game so far. What's your take? Do you have similar experience?




geofflambert -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/12/2019 1:32:26 AM)

No, CVs don't deliberately try to engage in surface combat, but it can happen, especially at night. Lots of variables, commander aggressiveness and how good his info was. At the battle of the Coral Sea, Japanese airplanes were trying (at night) to land on the Yorktown. If that can happen, what can't?




geofflambert -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/12/2019 1:33:34 AM)

I'm probably thinking of Santa Cruz and the Enterprise.




Canoerebel -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/12/2019 1:33:59 AM)

I've been playing the game (and predecessors) for 17 years now and have only rarely had carrier TFs bump into one another. As far as I recall, every instance in which a clash occurred made perfect sense. On the scale of minor irritations with the game model, ranked from 1 to 10, this is a 0. :)




jdsrae -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/12/2019 1:37:36 AM)

It could happen if both task forces have insufficient search aircraft up so no detection level as the game calls it.
With no DL neither would launch attack strikes.
That means they could end up in the same hex and only see each other for the first time with binos or radar at night.
Set more % of DB and TB planes to search and see if that helps




Technopiper -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/12/2019 1:50:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I'm probably thinking of Santa Cruz and the Enterprise.

Oh you are correct, it was Coral Sea. Still, I think carrier TF, once spotting an enemy TF, would steer the other way rather than carrying on with its currently assigned plot.




Fishbed -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/12/2019 3:10:30 AM)

It is most probable in real life that in case of some sort of detection level (even limited, such as TF11/17's the night before the last engagement at Coral Sea) talks about detaching a surface TF would be made. Unfortunately as you say, more than the WEGO system I'd fault (if I can say so) the timespan of each turn. In real life carrier battles don't get fought with orders that are 24 hours-old. But it would be harsh and unfair, indeed, to expect the computer to react to everything on its own and detach surface TFs by itself. The system can't always please the player, or more often run the risk of displeasing him/her [;)]




Technopiper -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/12/2019 3:41:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alain-James

It is most probable in real life that in case of some sort of detection level (even limited, such as TF11/17's the night before the last engagement at Coral Sea) talks about detaching a surface TF would be made. Unfortunately as you say, more than the WEGO system I'd fault (if I can say so) the timespan of each turn. In real life carrier battles don't get fought with orders that are 24 hours-old. But it would be harsh and unfair, indeed, to expect the computer to react to everything on its own and detach surface TFs by itself. The system can't always please the player, or more often run the risk of displeasing him/her [;)]

Good points. WitP is a strategic wargame with a tactical aspect. One day per turn is very fine grain for strategy games, yet it struggles with the tactical department. I also play Carriers at War which is strictly operational/tactical, and has 5-minute turns. To think of it, "realtime" really implies WEGO with finely chopped up turns. ;-)




Phoenix100 -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/12/2019 6:52:14 AM)

Well, in RL Coral Sea two CV TFs did come within 70nm of each other. Without detecting each other. So. Not so unrealistic.




obvert -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/12/2019 8:49:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Technopiper

Hi everyone, my first post. In Coral Sea my carrier TF crossed path with enemy carrier TF: they ended up switching positions with each other during the span of a turn. That doesn't seem realistic to me. Carriers don't sail right into each other, that's not how they fight. In one game two carrier TFs even engaged each other in surface battle. No damage as both quickly disengaged. The problem seems to be the WEGO system. I suspect it would be less apparent in waters less confined than the Coral Sea. Not a complaint as I understand every simulation has limitations, and I enjoy the game so far. What's your take? Do you have similar experience?



All other comments get at the main points.

If asking about these situations in future it wold be best to include more data. You don't state anything about naval search, the previous day's knowledge of DL for either side, where there were accompanying surface TFs (which any good player will have with his CVs at all times) and whether there was a CV air strike the following turn.

AE is complex, and some thing don't work as in RL due to the abstraction, one day turns and most importantly, player ability to make decisions that would not have been made in history due to knowledge of historical outcomes.

So to get the best help in future, give a bit more detail. [:)]




Technopiper -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/12/2019 9:15:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

Well, in RL Coral Sea two CV TFs did come within 70nm of each other. Without detecting each other. So. Not so unrealistic.

Ah but actually brushing shoulders and swapping positions without an emergency response. That's pretty unrealistic.




Technopiper -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/12/2019 9:29:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
All other comments get at the main points.

If asking about these situations in future it wold be best to include more data. You don't state anything about naval search, the previous day's knowledge of DL for either side, where there were accompanying surface TFs (which any good player will have with his CVs at all times) and whether there was a CV air strike the following turn.

AE is complex, and some thing don't work as in RL due to the abstraction, one day turns and most importantly, player ability to make decisions that would not have been made in history due to knowledge of historical outcomes.

So to get the best help in future, give a bit more detail. [:)]

Not exactly asking for help, neither a complaint. Just an observation. But since you asked: I have all my dive bombers from both carriers at 30% naval search, arcs pointing at the enemy TF, which I've already discovered the previous day. Message also showed that I was spotted by his aircraft.

Naval search planes are only a fraction of the problem. Historically, carrier task forces have destroyer screen spread way ahead of the carriers themselves. As Alain-James pointed out, the "realistic" respond would probably be the detachment of surface forces to engage, while the carriers would try to put distance between. He was also right in saying that the problem lies as much with the turn length as the WEGO system.

Again I realize this is a game and, as such, has limitations. Carriers at War probably do a better job portraying carrier movements (5-min turns vs 1-day turns) but that game doesn't have a strategic aspect.

Edit: Correction. I searched with torpedo bombers. Was playing the Japanese. Won the first game as the Allied in Coral Sea, think I'll try the Japanese side as well. Yorktown sunk and Lexington severely damaged. Shokaku and Zuikaku took light damages. Port Moresby taken. Shocked to hear Orphan Ann. :-)




BBfanboy -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/12/2019 12:48:18 PM)

Carrier forces with aggressive commanders tend to react toward enemy carrier forces. Your previous detection on both sides would set up mutual reaction and the bump into each other in the night.

Going past each other is not so surprising if you imagine the forces actually brushing by each other with one force south of the other (assuming an E-W course). The hex is 40nm wide and visibility at night is only 12,000 yards in maximum moonlight. Weather effects can also play a part in just how close the forces get before they see each other.

What is great about it all is that nearly anything can happen - like a crime thriller movie - so you get the suspense that keeps the game from being a bore. Here's to FOW and chance! [sm=00000436.gif]




MakeeLearn -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/12/2019 12:52:19 PM)

Could have been stormy weather.




MakeeLearn -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/12/2019 1:20:08 PM)


Avoidance is a tactical strategy.




Lecivius -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/12/2019 1:39:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Technopiper


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

Well, in RL Coral Sea two CV TFs did come within 70nm of each other. Without detecting each other. So. Not so unrealistic.

Ah but actually brushing shoulders and swapping positions without an emergency response. That's pretty unrealistic.


Not at all. A few degree variance in course, at 20 knots, and there you go. The 2 sides got real close at Midway, too. And that was open ocean, not an enclosed sea.




tarkalak -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/12/2019 3:43:15 PM)

I had a night intercept between both carrier TFs in the Wake scenario. They traded 2-3 shots and then evaded each other.




Macclan5 -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/12/2019 5:03:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Technopiper


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

Well, in RL Coral Sea two CV TFs did come within 70nm of each other. Without detecting each other. So. Not so unrealistic.

Ah but actually brushing shoulders and swapping positions without an emergency response. That's pretty unrealistic.


Not at all. A few degree variance in course, at 20 knots, and there you go. The 2 sides got real close at Midway, too. And that was open ocean, not an enclosed sea.



+1 Lecevius

Each hex is what 60 nautical miles ? (Just a number from memory off the top of my head - point of illustration only)

Some 78 miles ?

As pointed out in the real battle of Coral Sea Carrier TFs missed one another on 70nmi.

Further - historical precedent - both commanders debated (seriously debated) during the night whether to 'send in the gun boats' for Night combat but instead altered course and avoided combat.

Two TFs in the same hex - withdrawing based upon variables - aggressiveness - original destination - fuel - local weather including cloud cover which can differ within a hex in theory - etc is NOT a game issue

This is a gamer perception issue.

No where in the manual does it say ships entering same hex automatically 'visually sights' the other.




BBfanboy -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/12/2019 5:31:09 PM)

The hexes in the prior game WITP were 60 miles across. WITP-AE uses 40NM hexes. That is why the land hexes are 46 statute miles.
A navy guy on this forum pointed out that on a clear day the horizon from the conning tower of a sub is about 11NM. Make it a bit more for surface ships but then the haze of evaporating water becomes a factor at the horizon (in most of the game area). So there is plenty of room for TFs to miss each other at night, or just brush close by or stumble directly into each other la Guadalcanal. [X(]




Macclan5 -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/13/2019 2:00:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

The hexes in the prior game WITP were 60 miles across. WITP-AE uses 40NM hexes. That is why the land hexes are 46 statute miles.
A navy guy on this forum pointed out that on a clear day the horizon from the conning tower of a sub is about 11NM. Make it a bit more for surface ships but then the haze of evaporating water becomes a factor at the horizon (in most of the game area). So there is plenty of room for TFs to miss each other at night, or just brush close by or stumble directly into each other la Guadalcanal. [X(]


Thanks BBF [8D]

I knew I had it 'not correct' but couldn't recall specifically.

But to your point - "same idea"

The other real life example of course is Battle of Santa Cruz - Enterprise and Hornet (or Wasp?) as I recall.

Not specifically 2 task forces bumping into each other but "Grey Ghost" ducked into a 'local rain squall" where as Hornet (or Wasp?) bore the full onslaught of the IJN carrier alpha strike.

They were operating well within 40nmi of each other - one survives to fight another day - the other doesn't.

All of which to say is " the game is still a representation and imperfect " but the core issue is 'it could happen' in real life and this is not a game engine or mechanics issue.







rustysi -> RE: Newbie comment - Carriers crossing path (2/13/2019 5:58:46 PM)

quote:

Enterprise and Hornet


Hornet IIRC, Enterprise got hit later.




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