2 major complaints (Full Version)

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lion_of_judah -> 2 major complaints (8/23/2018 7:01:44 PM)

I have one major complaint with this game, and that is there are only two sides, and not one where you could have at least 4-5 different nations instead of just two. My second complaint is that there is no production capacity.




Cabido -> RE: 2 major complaints (8/23/2018 8:27:27 PM)

I have never seen a game with a production system that works well. The problem is that we have a posteriori knowledge of what worked well as a piece of equipment and what didn't, so that most games with production tends to see units with one or two kinds of equipment that proved very efficient historically or in game. Simulating factors that influence production levels, instead of choosing what to produce is more reasonable, in my opinion, but that can be simulated through events.

Much more important, once more in my very humble opinion, is to give more control over logistics, which is a fundamental aspect of operations. Being able to distribute supply in a non uniform way, creating supply dumps, etc. That would enrich game experience. Having to plan ahead accumulating supply, having to protect it, losing supply when attacked. A simple way would be to allow supply units to have cumulative effect by an on/off option set by the designer, who could then decrease the historical supply levels overall and provide some supply units to boost the levels locally at the will of the player.

More than two players would be a nice feature, but I imagine it would be a complicated one to implement. I may be wrong though.




Lobster -> RE: 2 major complaints (8/23/2018 9:49:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cabido

Much more important, once more in my very humble opinion, is to give more control over logistics, which is a fundamental aspect of operations. Being able to distribute supply in a non uniform way, creating supply dumps, etc. That would enrich game experience. Having to plan ahead accumulating supply, having to protect it, losing supply when attacked. A simple way would be to allow supply units to have cumulative effect by an on/off option set by the designer, who could then decrease the historical supply levels overall and provide some supply units to boost the levels locally at the will of the player.



+1




lion_of_judah -> RE: 2 major complaints (8/24/2018 12:44:38 AM)

I think ATG does a pretty good job of doing the production of nations, if it is programmed correctly, just my opinion.




hingram -> RE: 2 major complaints (8/24/2018 12:39:31 PM)

It would be nice if you could code the supply points as units or cities or ports that can be attacked by air, ground or sea. I'm assuming an amount of OO in the code where you could take advantage of Inheritance.

Multiple players sounds pretty hairy. I was thinking it would be nice if you had a closing sequence where you could forward the friendly turn to multiple people and then one person approves it to send it to the opposing side.




MikeBrough -> RE: 2 major complaints (8/24/2018 7:25:09 PM)

It's The OPERATIONAL Art of War. Production doesn't figure in operations.

It's a good idea, though - a strategic version of TOAOW.




Curtis Lemay -> RE: 2 major complaints (8/25/2018 9:02:56 PM)

Virtually any aspect of wargaming comes with 20:20 hindsight issues. So, that doesn't nix production from my perspective - especially if both sides have it. For sure, my experience with it is that handling production is FUN! It would be great if TOAW could incorporate it in some subjects. But it's a big topic and will probably be a long way down the road before it hits the coding stage. Supply dumps will definitely come before that.

The scale of TOAW is Operational. The scope can include strategic issues. Some scenarios out there already do.




lion_of_judah -> RE: 2 major complaints (8/26/2018 5:20:36 PM)

if one does make a strategic scenario, then how would you mimic production. Thanks




Curtis Lemay -> RE: 2 major complaints (8/26/2018 5:50:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lion_of_judah

if one does make a strategic scenario, then how would you mimic production. Thanks

See my Soviet Union 1941 scenario. While you can't choose what to produce, you can model the destruction/displacement of factories and the capture of personnel centers.




josant -> RE: 2 major complaints (8/26/2018 5:50:48 PM)

I do not care about production so much,I think that at operational level is not necesary, but I would like that Toaw have more than two sides.




lion_of_judah -> RE: 2 major complaints (8/27/2018 3:18:40 AM)

I checked out the page for this, but where can I download it?




Oberst_Klink -> RE: 2 major complaints (8/27/2018 8:28:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lion_of_judah

I checked out the page for this, but where can I download it?

http://crossrl1.wixsite.com/my-toaw-site/soviet-union-1941

There you go.

Klink, Oberst




Curtis Lemay -> RE: 2 major complaints (8/27/2018 1:47:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lion_of_judah

I checked out the page for this, but where can I download it?

It comes with TOAW IV. WWII - East Front folder.




lion_of_judah -> RE: 2 major complaints (8/28/2018 1:43:39 AM)

okay, thanks




RobS61 -> RE: 2 major complaints (9/2/2018 2:33:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cabido

I have never seen a game with a production system that works well.

You've apparently never played Empire Deluxe. It's available from Killer Bee Software. I can't post a link because I'm still new here.




76mm -> RE: 2 major complaints (9/2/2018 3:29:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobS61
You've apparently never played Empire Deluxe

With all due respect, AFAIK that is a much more rudimentary production system than most players would expect in a TOAW campaign on the Eastern Front, for instance.




Lobster -> RE: 2 major complaints (9/2/2018 3:52:17 PM)

Typically in a game with production players will find the 'perfect' set of units to produce and that is all that will ever be produced regardless of historical accuracy. About as historical as a fantasy game. The only way that could be avoided is to force them to produce a historical suite of units. Which would then beg the question, why have production at all?




76mm -> RE: 2 major complaints (9/2/2018 4:03:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
About as historical as a fantasy game. The only way that could be avoided is to force them to produce a historical suite of units. Which would then beg the question, why have production at all?

Yeah, I agree with this, although I do enjoy having production in "fictional" (ahem, I don't play fantasy) games.




RobS61 -> RE: 2 major complaints (9/3/2018 2:41:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobS61
You've apparently never played Empire Deluxe

With all due respect, AFAIK that is a much more rudimentary production system than most players would expect in a TOAW campaign on the Eastern Front, for instance.

Of course. I merely replied to someone's statement that he had never seen a production system that worked, implying that there has never been one at all.

Lobster pretty much sums it up:

quote:

Typically in a game with production players will find the 'perfect' set of units to produce and that is all that will ever be produced regardless of historical accuracy. About as historical as a fantasy game. The only way that could be avoided is to force them to produce a historical suite of units. Which would then beg the question, why have production at all?




Cabido -> RE: 2 major complaints (9/3/2018 6:44:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RobS61


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobS61
You've apparently never played Empire Deluxe

With all due respect, AFAIK that is a much more rudimentary production system than most players would expect in a TOAW campaign on the Eastern Front, for instance.

Of course. I merely replied to someone's statement that he had never seen a production system that worked, implying that there has never been one at all.

Lobster pretty much sums it up:

quote:

Typically in a game with production players will find the 'perfect' set of units to produce and that is all that will ever be produced regardless of historical accuracy. About as historical as a fantasy game. The only way that could be avoided is to force them to produce a historical suite of units. Which would then beg the question, why have production at all?



You went a bit to far with the implications of my sentence. "I have never seen" means just that. It doesn't mean there has never been one at all. I just followed this sentence with the reasons why I think it is problematic; the very same reasons you're corroborating when reproducing Lobster's words.

Is it possible to create a functional production system for TOAW? Perhaps. It just can't be based on the average war game production systems around. In the case of TOAW, which tends to reproduce historical situations with the granularity it does, it would be a real challenge to put on a functional production system which doesn't harm historical plausibility.

Of course we have previous knowledge of historical battle outcomes, so that one could be tempted to apply the same limitations to chosen tactics and strategies and that in fact happens after playing a scenario multiple times. But the dynamics of a battle are more open ended; in a certain historical circumstance, a single set of "moves" was tried, alternative "moves" outcomes remain obscure. We can't test multiple strategies for the same historical conjuncture in the real world. Regarding equipment, a single piece of equipment was tested in multiple situations and would, in hindsight, be completely discarded from production. Not only that, but a Tiger tank will be a Tiger tank in all scenarios you'll be playing, so your production preferences will tend to keep stable, while planning your tactical/strategical moves will be unique for each scenario.

I think production is fun too and I hope that whoever tries to implement it will take these problems in consideration. Perhaps a non-dictatorial system of decision, where your high command will present you some production options, in a slightly random way (as theater options), and you could accept them or reject them without knowing what options would be presented ahead of you. So, if you'll just be rejecting every proposal of P40 production saving your resources to produce P51s, the occasion may never present itself or may come too late. The proposals could have a probability based on historical production levels and the historical number of the specific kind of equipment on the represented theater.




2clicks -> RE: 2 major complaints (9/4/2018 10:44:10 AM)

Maybe somewhere in-between production and the current production that we have where we could influence production, especially in larger scenarios. Something along the lines of prioritise tank production so that you get more tank replacements that are needed instead of loads of planes sitting around.

Personally I feels this sits with the area of the game while giving the player options.




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