Multiple attacks on one defender (Full Version)

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thedoctorking -> Multiple attacks on one defender (4/13/2018 2:26:53 PM)

In a game I'm in, my opponent has launched a number of attacks where he hits a well-defended hex ten or more times with single-brigade attacks, losing horribly, and then finally launches his major attack and wins. Looking at the detailed reports, it appears that my defending units' CV is going down by about 10% over the long series of preliminary attacks. My question is, what is causing this decrease? Fatigue? Lack of ammo? Morale issues? A combination of the above?

Do units resupply with ammo between battles? Or is this tactic actually depleting the defenders' ammunition supply before the main event?




Telemecus -> RE: Multiple attacks on one defender (4/13/2018 2:36:07 PM)

I am guessing probably ammo - once it is low it has quite a debilitating effect on CV. Worth looking at the Dinglir versus HLYA AAR on this where it is described as "soaking" attacks. In one turn there were several hundred attacks, mostly of the type you described. There is a lot written about it there. My guess is Mamluke has also used this a lot in the 2by3+ games - so could ask him for concrete examples there?

Ammo resupply for your enemy only occurs once at the end of your turn.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Multiple attacks on one defender (4/13/2018 2:40:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

In a game I'm in, my opponent has launched a number of attacks where he hits a well-defended hex ten or more times with single-brigade attacks, losing horribly, and then finally launches his major attack and wins. Looking at the detailed reports, it appears that my defending units' CV is going down by about 10% over the long series of preliminary attacks. My question is, what is causing this decrease? Fatigue? Lack of ammo? Morale issues? A combination of the above?

Do units resupply with ammo between battles? Or is this tactic actually depleting the defenders' ammunition supply before the main event?


Yup, I know who is doing this to you too since I conversed with them at length on how to do it ;-). But yes it is an old tactic reborn again to only die and reborn again in a never ending cycle. I used it against Dinglir only to postpone further attacks to build up enough manpower to start again in the Spring and continue to the end of the war. This pretty much runs your units out of Ammo so when the big attack comes the Soviets take hardly any loses on their good units thus raising their Morale, exp etc etc. Soviets don't care about the small brigade units or throw away divisions. The desired effect is to keep you on guard everywhere. Granted the Germans will get morale boosts from all the wins it is demoralizing to see it as the Germans. Good luck combating this because it is hard to do and if done correctly by the Soviets has the desired effect.




SparkleyTits -> RE: Multiple attacks on one defender (4/13/2018 3:32:07 PM)

Oh I did not think that ammo showed in CV, is that not the case?




Telemecus -> RE: Multiple attacks on one defender (4/13/2018 3:48:54 PM)

I think the logic was when you are low on ammo you start to conserve it just in case. So shooting less often means lower CV. I thought it was described somewhere in the old manual?




SparkleyTits -> RE: Multiple attacks on one defender (4/13/2018 4:04:50 PM)

Ah I thought that it meant that each individual element fired less throughout combat generally as I know when low on ammo there is definitely conservation like when you have loads of ammo you have a chance to shoot at your enemies more so but I did not think it effected the elements CV itself only how many times it shot back the similar to way ART does not have a CV in of itself

In laymans terms I did not think fire rate was calculated in CV stacks or battles?

Does that mean it is shown in battle then with modified CV etc and I was being blind [:D]




Telemecus -> RE: Multiple attacks on one defender (4/13/2018 4:08:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits
Does that mean it is shown in battle then with modified CV etc and I was being blind [:D]


Could be the blind leading the blind! I need to reread the mechanic to remember - so do not rely on me!




thedoctorking -> RE: Multiple attacks on one defender (4/13/2018 4:36:48 PM)

It is a little demoralizing to see strong positions go down, but fifteen victories and one defeat is good for morale. I also noticed that I took very few casualties in the final defeat, so my guys basically fell back in good order when they ran out of ammo.

I'm also thinking that the guys who lost all those early battles are now less combat-effective. I noticed in a couple of fights behind the lines in our game that your little rear-area guys were like 2 CV. This may have the negative consequence of making German offensives more likely to succeed once the front line positions are broken.




SparkleyTits -> RE: Multiple attacks on one defender (4/13/2018 5:01:25 PM)

Well the position was only a middling one of 50cv not a strong position like your X CV ones if I remember rightly?

Like I mentioned before from what I can tell once you get around 70-80CV the results seem to become much less dramatic the higher the CV of the stack hence me not touching you X CV stacks in the slightest however I have a inkling the 70+ CV might change once rifle corps become my bread and butter instead of divisions but will have to see on that one




thedoctorking -> RE: Multiple attacks on one defender (4/13/2018 5:19:46 PM)

You did get Kharkov and that division had ~120 CV at the beginning. Another feature of the multiple attacks model is that each attacker draws artillery SU's and they reduce the fortification value. So my level 3 fort in Kharkov was completely worn away by the end.




SparkleyTits -> RE: Multiple attacks on one defender (4/13/2018 5:33:50 PM)

Ah yes if it was not a lone SEC unit I am unsure if it would of worked there hence me not trying the same near D-town where the situation is the same but is has real combat value and not a SEC etc
With it being a SEC it's TOE and manpower is woefully lacking to withold pressure properly especially when outnumbered so heavily by my first rate guards and SU's I imagine it's suggested CV was inflated beyond what it's fighting capability actually was

I can't remember exactly what happened at Kharkov but if I used brigades I don't recall me having any nearby that would of brought in SU to reduce fort levels?
I never thought of using SU's and brigades in that way of course that could help a tonne on entrenched positions I should of thought of that one already!




Crackaces -> RE: Multiple attacks on one defender (4/14/2018 6:53:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

In a game I'm in, my opponent has launched a number of attacks where he hits a well-defended hex ten or more times with single-brigade attacks, losing horribly, and then finally launches his major attack and wins. Looking at the detailed reports, it appears that my defending units' CV is going down by about 10% over the long series of preliminary attacks. My question is, what is causing this decrease? Fatigue? Lack of ammo? Morale issues? A combination of the above?

Do units resupply with ammo between battles? Or is this tactic actually depleting the defenders' ammunition supply before the main event?


Yup, I know who is doing this to you too since I conversed with them at length on how to do it ;-). But yes it is an old tactic reborn again to only die and reborn again in a never ending cycle. I used it against Dinglir only to postpone further attacks to build up enough manpower to start again in the Spring and continue to the end of the war. This pretty much runs your units out of Ammo so when the big attack comes the Soviets take hardly any loses on their good units thus raising their Morale, exp etc etc. Soviets don't care about the small brigade units or throw away divisions. The desired effect is to keep you on guard everywhere. Granted the Germans will get morale boosts from all the wins it is demoralizing to see it as the Germans. Good luck combating this because it is hard to do and if done correctly by the Soviets has the desired effect.


I do not think it is gamely although .. basically you are exhausting ammo with soakoff attacks and then bringing in the big guns to move a unit. The tactical/operational move has operational and strategic costs. Just what I have seen .. brigades that participate are occupying a space forward that might be occupied by a corps. That is just one observation. Multiple failed attacks to deplete ammo means some commander accumulates losses and is subject to replacement. I could go on ... Used judiciously I could see this is an operational move to counter the superman pz armor advantage. Used in the heat of the moment because you can push a unit back without further thought for strategy .. and it will be like spending a 401K (an American tax deferred retirement savings account) in your 30's ...




SparkleyTits -> RE: Multiple attacks on one defender (4/15/2018 3:10:16 AM)

Well I personally think as Axis there are ways you can use this tactic to your advantage

If you purposefully place Axis forces to be drained in 7-10 attack you can reliably gain 3 morale atleast which equates to around 10% total CV strength I believe?
If used purposefully and correctly this can very realiably be brought to Axis advantage

I know it's conveluted but from what I can tell there is a counter move to almost all moves

The only one as of yet to be otherwise in my opinion is suicide para drops




morvael -> RE: Multiple attacks on one defender (4/16/2018 8:50:59 AM)

Without combat delay this may indeed be a worthwile tactics. So I hope this will be gone in WitE2.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Multiple attacks on one defender (4/16/2018 12:53:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Without combat delay this may indeed be a worthwile tactics. So I hope this will be gone in WitE2.


Even with Combat delay you can still use the multiple attacks on a hex. Combat delay just add MP's to a hex if you move into then"leave" the hex. There is "no" delay for moving into the hex. Thus combat delay isn't going to do a thing on using "multiple attacks on one defender" in a hex.




morvael -> RE: Multiple attacks on one defender (4/16/2018 6:38:14 PM)

But combat delay should also increase the cost in MP to attack a hex. I could do such thing based on the number of land battles in hex, but without supporting data structures it would be slowing the game too much.




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