Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (Full Version)

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Olorin -> Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/22/2016 9:59:28 AM)

After a 16-month hiatus, I finally have spare time for a pbem. I’ll be playing the Allies for the first time against Mr Kane so I expect to get clobbered thoroughly.
We are playing with the latest beta, scenario #28 (DaIronBabes-B), with extended map and stacking limits.

Settings:
- FOW ON
- advanced Weather ON
- advanced Weather ON
- Allied damage control ON
- PDU ON
- historical first turn OFF
- Dec 7 surprise ON
- reliable USN torps OFF
- realistic R&D ON
- no unit withdrawals OFF

House Rules:
- pay PPs for restricted units crossing borders
- no strategic bombing in China
- no 4E bomber strikes below 10k feet
- no new allied TFs in turn 1

WARNING:
NO MR KANE FROM NOW ON





Olorin -> Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/22/2016 10:41:57 AM)

Pearl Harbor:
Although no BB was sunk outright, the strike was devastating. Arizona & Nevada will be operational in 3 months. The rest will be out for most of 1942. The KB did not stay for a second day.
[img]https://s12.postimg.org/themsyn99/PH_strike.jpg[/img]upload

Port strikes:
Georgetown & Rangoon ports were hit, all ships are sunk. Manila is also attacked by 60 Netties, two subs are damaged.
The only airfield that was attacked in the entire map was Clark Field, so air losses in turn 1 favored the Allies.

Landings:
Kota Bharu & Vigan are invaded.

Other stuff:
CVL Ryujo and lots of small IJN surface TFs take positions around the PI in order to intercept the exodus of the Asiatic Fleet. CA Houston and CL Boise will manage to escape.




Olorin -> Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/22/2016 11:02:08 AM)

December 8-14:

Large landings:
- San Fernando is invaded by 48th Div, 65th Bde, plus three tank regiments. 11th PA Div had no hope.
- Kota Bharu is captured by two IJA regiments.
- Kuching is captured by 1st Sasebo SNFL. The small British detachment was evacuated prior to the invasion and is heading to Koepang, where I intend to create a bastion.

Small landings:
- Sorong, Kavieng, Buin, Makin, Tarawa & Wake are captured by SNFL forces. The Wildcats at Wake are safe on Lexington.
- Jolo invasion was repelled by Force Z. The underescorted IJN transports retreat to the north.
- The Dutch cruisers intercepted the Sorong landing, but only after everything was unloaded. Still, 5-6 IJn transports were sunk.

Asiatic Fleet exodus:
- Going very well so far. Less than 10 transports are sunk by enemy surface forces.
- Two AS and one AG are unloading supplies at Mindanao.
- The entire Asian Fleet submarine force (save the Electric Boat class) is transporting supplies from NE Borneo and the small PI to Manila.

Battle of the Makassar Strait:
quote:

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai, Shell hits 6, on fire
CL Sendai, Shell hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Shinonome, Shell hits 3
DD Shirakumo, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Shikinami
DD Ayanami, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Asagiri, Shell hits 1
DD Sagiri
DD Yugiri, Shell hits 2, on fire

Allied Ships
CA Houston, Shell hits 6
CL Marblehead, Shell hits 5
CL Boise, Shell hits 5, on fire
DD Alden, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Barker, Shell hits 2
DD Bulmer, Shell hits 12, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Edsall, Shell hits 2
DD John D. Edwards, Shell hits 2
DD Stewart
DD Paul Jones, Shell hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Whipple, Shell hits 2
DD Parrott, Shell hits 2

Only DD Bulmer is sunk outright. The next day a Dutch sub put two torpedoes in CL Sendai, which is probably enough to sink her.
- My TF was attacked by CVL Ryujo, but Dutch fighters killed 9 Kates. The strike was unescorted due to range.

Other stuff:
Hong Kong was captured on Dec 14.




Olorin -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/22/2016 11:45:52 AM)

deleted




dave sindel -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/22/2016 12:04:50 PM)

Good luck and welcome back !




Olorin -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/22/2016 12:04:55 PM)

Logistics:

Only now I realize the acute lack of Allied escorts. Japanese subs can hunt with impunity until I organize my convoys, which will take 1-2 months. I am separating my transports by class, based mainly on endurance. The Allied merchant fleet starts with a capacity of roughly 1,5 million tons and I intend to use all of it. Everything that arrives later as reinforcements will be held as a reserve or to transport troops.

I 'll keep convoy routes to me, but I can tell you my 6 months projection.

Supplies hauled:
NoPac 0,75M
CenPac 0,6M
SoPac 80k
SwPac 1M
SE Asia 1,5M

Fuel hauled:
NoPac 0,45M
CenPac 0,65M
SoPac 70k
SwPac 1M
SE Asia 1,75M

Advice from AFBs is most welcome. Are these values enough for early '42?


quote:

ORIGINAL: dave sindel
Good luck and welcome back !

Thank you brother. Stay tuned, Mr Kane is an agressive player and I expect the Japanese katana to strike hard very soon.




ny59giants_MatrixForum -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/22/2016 2:20:21 PM)

More info to follow in the days ahead, but one thing I do is send the 12 to 15 APs to Mare Island to sit there until early '43 when they can upgrade to APAs. The Allies are very short on Assault shipping in '43, so every one of these ships counts. There are two class of xAKs that start in or around India that I send immediately to Cape Town to await 2/42 when they can convert to xAPs. Then, most head to San Fran. There are other's of these two classes in other CW countries, but they form the backbone of my troop lift for '42.
Good luck, my friend!!




obvert -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/22/2016 2:44:50 PM)

Looking forward to this one!!




Olorin -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/22/2016 3:08:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

More info to follow in the days ahead, but one thing I do is send the 12 to 15 APs to Mare Island to sit there until early '43 when they can upgrade to APAs. The Allies are very short on Assault shipping in '43, so every one of these ships counts. There are two class of xAKs that start in or around India that I send immediately to Cape Town to await 2/42 when they can convert to xAPs. Then, most head to San Fran. There are other's of these two classes in other CW countries, but they form the backbone of my troop lift for '42.
Good luck, my friend!!


Ah, Michael, the right man at the right time!
I believe the two classes you refer to are Pacific L and Dominion M. They are a bit slow to participate in invasions for my taste. Do you think they are absolutely necessary as xAPs? As it stands now, they are part of my supply convoys. I remember one of your older posts which detailed your general convoy plan but I can’t find it; I would love to take another look at it to compare it with mine[:)]




ny59giants_MatrixForum -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/22/2016 3:19:14 PM)

Not for invasions, but for moving troops in general. You have enough other xAKs to move supplies. The advantage in using them is they are big enough to get from USA to Australia and back along with being small enough to be made into single ship TF once you get to a base with only size 1 or 2 port. Remember that the Allies, especially the Americans have those large radar devices and motorized support to unload. They need to be able to get docked and/or have Naval Support present to do so. Your larger xAPs and APs are for invasions and to go on the far safer more southerly routes to avoid subs and raiders.

I do have those spreadsheets on what I usually do with each class. You'll get them soon. Just drop me your email address again. I got a new computer last year and may not have it.




JocMeister -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/22/2016 3:32:23 PM)

Good luck Nick!




ny59giants_MatrixForum -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/23/2016 11:17:46 AM)

These ships plus two more (19 total) like the smaller AP Henderson are at rest at Mare Island until 3/43 when they can become APAs.

[image]local://upfiles/15133/6E4D3E830DD04BCBA2028EB1861D24E1.jpg[/image]




ny59giants_MatrixForum -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/23/2016 11:20:04 AM)

Important difference from stock to DBB based PBEM
quote:


Engineers:
The “name” of a device does not matter, only the device data matters. Any Eng unit can always build, but if it has Anti-Armor <1, it cannot reduce forts. If it has Anti-Soft <9, it cannot AV. If it is “named” Construction or Labor Eng, but is a Type = 23 (squad), it will not build. If it also has a-a <1, and a-s <9, it won’t do anything but eat (i.e., nothing but ‘bodies’). So there is a matrix of different Eng squads that represent a mix of abilities; build stuff, reduce forts, able to AV, some of the above, none of the above. DaBigBabes uses this matrix (according to our appreciation as to how it falls out) to help limit in-game tempo, by limiting in-game infrastructure.

Shore Party:
Shore Party is a sub-set of Nav Sup. Shore Party devices assist in loading/unloading but do not assist in repairing or rearming. Repair/rearm bases were very far and few between, for both sides, and thus with BigBabes, but both sides recognized an imperative for stevedoring and non-integral lift capability. Thus Shore Partys and a skoosh of code that lets them give an unload bonus to TFs. A Shore Party switch may be set for a Vehicle, such as an LVT-2 Amph Trac; It may be set for a Type = 24 Eng squad, like USA Port Srvc Sq, in which case it may also help build; It may be set for a Type = 23 Squad, like USA Amph Sup Sq.

Check the editor often, and become familiar with all the different kinds of units available. For example:

USMC Pioneer Sq – Squad type – No Build, Yes AV, Yes Shore Party, No Reduce Forts
USN Constr Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, Yes AV, No Shore Party, No Reduce Forts
USN Spec Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, No AV, Yes Shore Party, No Reduce Forts
USN Base Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, No AV, Yes Shore Party, No Reduce Forts
USA Port Svc Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, No AV, Yes Shore Party, No Reduce Forts
USA Amph Sup Sq – Squad type – No Build, Yes AV, Yes Shore Party, No Reduce Forts

IJA Shipping Eng Sq – Squad type – No Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, Yes Shore Party, LC = 17
IJA Cmbt Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, Yes AV, Yes Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 17
IJA Const Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 17
IJA Const Labor Sq – Squad type – No Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 20
IJN Const Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 17
IJN Const Labor Sq – Squad type – No Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 20

So IJ Const Labor doesn’t 'do' anything and, what’s more, has a larger load cost. This represents the large manual labor component (Chinese/Korean) that results in 1000 man Eng Bns/Rgts without giving much additional capability. Typical IJA Const Bns/Rgts have 32 Const squads (590 ‘men’, 1088 total with the support, etc.), but 16 squads are Const Eng, while 16 are Const Labor. It's a way to have 32 squad (1000 man) Bns/Rgts with half the capability of a corresponding 32 squad Allied unit.

Even though many squad devices don’t ‘do’ anything (and many Eng devices can’t assault), they are still marginally useful (apart from the Eng devices being able to build). Anti-Soft = 8 (typically) so these units may still ‘shoot’ during the pre-assault fire phase. They ‘shoot’ better than the default firepower of a 251 Eng or 252 Sup device, so that’s something.

Different load costs also allow Const Bns/Rgts to be tailored as to troop count and, therefore, load ability and troop population on atolls and small islands.





ny59giants_MatrixForum -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/23/2016 11:23:16 AM)

Cargo Classes

Type Class Capacity Speed Endurance Where
xAK Transmarine 0/3200 12 11000 WC to Pearl
xAK Harriman 0/5200 12 14900 USA
xAK Isthmian 0/4800 12 13600 USA
xAK Hog Island 0/4900 12 14700 USA
xAK Luckenbach 0/6300 12 16600 USA
xAK Pacifc L 0/3900 12 12000 Convert to xAP…USA
xAK Dominion M 0/5550 13 14600 Convert to xAP…USA
xAK Euro K 0/5600/200 14 17900 Cape Town to
xAK Southwest 0/6410 14 13200 USA
xAK C1-A Cargo 0/4550 14 19300 Convert to xAP in 2/42
xAK C2 Cargo 0/5600/200 16 13500 Convert to xAP in 2/42
xAK C3-E Cargo 0/5700/400 17 15600 USA
xAK Euro L 0/7580/550 17 14000 USA

xAK Pacific M 0/2900 12 6000 Abadan to India
xAK Dominion L 0/6400 12 16800 Cape Town to…
xAK Euro M 0/4175 14 12300 Cape Town to….




ny59giants_MatrixForum -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/23/2016 11:29:53 AM)

Fast Transport TF - Unlike Japan, the Allies have very limited ships capable of this mission. I take some of my APDs (many of the Clemson DDs converted to APDs) and ALL the AMC to form one or two TFs. Use them wisely. [:-]




dave sindel -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/23/2016 4:57:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Fast Transport TF - Unlike Japan, the Allies have very limited ships capable of this mission. I take some of my APDs (many of the Clemson DDs converted to APDs) and ALL the AMC to form one or two TFs. Use them wisely. [:-]


I learned this lesson the hard way. I used my USN APD's on several meaningless raids early in 1942 and lost all but one of them. Now, in April 1943 when the momentum has shifted, I sure miss the flexibility they provide.




Olorin -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/23/2016 5:41:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dave sindel


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Fast Transport TF - Unlike Japan, the Allies have very limited ships capable of this mission. I take some of my APDs (many of the Clemson DDs converted to APDs) and ALL the AMC to form one or two TFs. Use them wisely. [:-]


I learned this lesson the hard way. I used my USN APD's on several meaningless raids early in 1942 and lost all but one of them. Now, in April 1943 when the momentum has shifted, I sure miss the flexibility they provide.


There are 26 Clemson-class destroyers at the start and in this game 15 of them will be converted to APD and 9 to DE. The Wicker-class (x9) will also become DE.

I love APD, now that I look at my numbers again they seem too few to me.




Olorin -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/23/2016 6:03:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Cargo Classes

Type Class Capacity Speed Endurance Where
xAK Transmarine 0/3200 12 11000 WC to Pearl
xAK Harriman 0/5200 12 14900 USA
xAK Isthmian 0/4800 12 13600 USA
xAK Hog Island 0/4900 12 14700 USA
xAK Luckenbach 0/6300 12 16600 USA
xAK Pacifc L 0/3900 12 12000 Convert to xAP…USA
xAK Dominion M 0/5550 13 14600 Convert to xAP…USA
xAK Euro K 0/5600/200 14 17900 Cape Town to
xAK Southwest 0/6410 14 13200 USA
xAK C1-A Cargo 0/4550 14 19300 Convert to xAP in 2/42
xAK C2 Cargo 0/5600/200 16 13500 Convert to xAP in 2/42
xAK C3-E Cargo 0/5700/400 17 15600 USA
xAK Euro L 0/7580/550 17 14000 USA

xAK Pacific M 0/2900 12 6000 Abadan to India
xAK Dominion L 0/6400 12 16800 Cape Town to…
xAK Euro M 0/4175 14 12300 Cape Town to….



Michael, pls check the endurances in DaIronBabes B;they are reduced in almost all classes. I had prepared a comprehensive convoy setup only to find it wouldn't work for this mod. I changed it to this:

CAN --> ALE, Transmarine x29, 8420
CAN --> ALE, Euro D x2, 8525
WC --> Pearl, Transmarine x24, 8420
PAN --> Pearl, Isthmian x10, 11000
WC --> NZ, Isthmian x5, 11000
WC --> AUS, Empire L x3, 13670
WC --> AUS, Southwest x4, 13200
WC --> AUS, Euro L x8, 13780
WC --> AUS, C3-E Cargo x1, 14100
WC --> AUS, Euro K x20, 12020
WC --> AUS, Luckenbach x2, 14240
WC --> AUS, Harriman x10, 12080
WC --> AUS, Dominion L x30, 14160
CT --> IND, Euro M x43, 11800
CT --> IND, Pacifc L x60, 11000
ABA --> IND, Pacific M x9, 4060
EUSA --> CT, Dominion M x24, 11420
UK --> CT, Hog Island x12, 12000
UK --> CT, Isthmian x7, 11000
UK --> CT, Euro M x4, 11800

I 'll probably convert some of these to xAP.
Thoughts?





Wargmr -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/23/2016 7:10:24 PM)

Supply is not as big an issue as the allies. It is plentiful from many locations around the perimeter of the map.

One of Mr. Kane's greatest strengths is his air arm. This is where he is going to test you most in the first year of the war.




Olorin -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/23/2016 9:42:07 PM)

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Olorin -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/24/2016 9:02:50 AM)

Sunk ships:

Allied:
DD x3
AVD x1
AV Langley
xAKL x23
xAK x19
xAP x8
TK x3

Japanese:
CL Sendai
DD Yomogi
xAKL x4
xaK x3


Air losses:
70 (A) vs 83 (J)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

Supply is not as big an issue as the allies. It is plentiful from many locations around the perimeter of the map.

One of Mr. Kane's greatest strengths is his air arm. This is where he is going to test you most in the first year of the war.


Interesting bit of info, thanks.




Olorin -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/24/2016 9:13:53 AM)

Enemy intentions:

So far it's been a conservative opening by Mr Kane, although it's still early to make a definitive judgement. It looks as though he is investing a lot on an early capture of Singapore and Clark Field.

There is no sign that the three unrestricted Jap divisions (4th, 21st, 33rd) that start in the HI have moved forward. SigInt reports the 33rd still at Nagasaki.




PaxMondo -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/24/2016 12:12:03 PM)

Great to see you back in action ... and you are facing a really good IJ player in Mr. Kane. Really looking forward to this ...




ny59giants_MatrixForum -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/24/2016 12:14:17 PM)

American CVs - I've done this in just about every game, place an 18 plane Marine fighter group on them. Job #1 is survivability. I sleep better with 45 fighters on each, even if some are the old Buffaloes. [;)] You have the first USN fighter resize in Jan and then again in July to 36. I've taken off my TBs (now Avengers in Oct '42) and gone with just fighters and DBs. For the Allies, I feel that you need to find a way to get the TBs NavT to 70 or more and then I train them in GrnB. I will find some safe place afterwards to get them much needed experience. I believe that relatively low success of American TBs in CV clashes is because the pilots overall Exp levels are too low. I can look at some of my bomber groups and after training them up to near 70 in GrnB and somewhat in NavB, they need some time bombing a base before their hit rate goes up.

P38s - Unless you have restriction on altitude, these are your best early war sweepers (for me, set at 33k). I use the old P-25, P-26s, and even P-39s to replace the P-38s on your restricted air groups in USA. You should then be able to field a few air groups by mid-42.

Marine DB groups - You will get many of these with SBDs. However, VMSB 131, 143, and 233 'may be' able to upgrade to Avengers in mid-42. You may find that one area in which the Allies have surplus of airframes is the USN and Marines. So, go with Avengers where you can.

Leaders - At a steady rate, I go with changing my game long air groups starting with fighter pilots.

Canadian KVs - early war escorts for your many merchant TF.




Olorin -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/24/2016 12:51:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

American CVs - I've done this in just about every game, place an 18 plane Marine fighter group on them. Job #1 is survivability. I sleep better with 45 fighters on each, even if some are the old Buffaloes. [;)] You have the first USN fighter resize in Jan and then again in July to 36. I've taken off my TBs (now Avengers in Oct '42) and gone with just fighters and DBs. For the Allies, I feel that you need to find a way to get the TBs NavT to 70 or more and then I train them in GrnB. I will find some safe place afterwards to get them much needed experience. I believe that relatively low success of American TBs in CV clashes is because the pilots overall Exp levels are too low. I can look at some of my bomber groups and after training them up to near 70 in GrnB and somewhat in NavB, they need some time bombing a base before their hit rate goes up.

P38s - Unless you have restriction on altitude, these are your best early war sweepers (for me, set at 33k). I use the old P-25, P-26s, and even P-39s to replace the P-38s on your restricted air groups in USA. You should then be able to field a few air groups by mid-42.

Marine DB groups - You will get many of these with SBDs. However, VMSB 131, 143, and 233 'may be' able to upgrade to Avengers in mid-42. You may find that one area in which the Allies have surplus of airframes is the USN and Marines. So, go with Avengers where you can.

Leaders - At a steady rate, I go with changing my game long air groups starting with fighter pilots.

Canadian KVs - early war escorts for your many merchant TF.


Re: CVs, I moved the Wildcat groups at PH and Wake Island to Enterprise and Lexington. I want to follow your advice with Saratoga too, but the problem is she is already off map moving to CT and I have a spare Wildcat group sitting in San Diego. It takes 38 days to redeploy it to CT, which begs the questions:

a. is pilot training taking place while in transit?
b. only 3 USN airgroups will be left in WC for pilot training. Are they enough?





Olorin -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/24/2016 12:53:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Great to see you back in action ... and you are facing a really good IJ player in Mr. Kane. Really looking forward to this ...


Thank you Pax, I don't think I will present much challenge to Mr Kane in my first game as Allies. I have an aggressive strategy which will either result in a spectacular victory or -most likely- in an embarrassing defeat. [:D]




Olorin -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/24/2016 12:58:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants
P38s - Unless you have restriction on altitude, these are your best early war sweepers (for me, set at 33k). I use the old P-25, P-26s, and even P-39s to replace the P-38s on your restricted air groups in USA. You should then be able to field a few air groups by mid-42.


No restrictions on altitude. There are currently 32 P38s in WC but there are no replacements until May '42 [&:]
I'm building an airfield at Oak Harbor in order to move my P38s to Adak Island.




Olorin -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/24/2016 2:41:54 PM)

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BBfanboy -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/24/2016 4:36:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin


Re: CVs, I moved the Wildcat groups at PH and Wake Island to Enterprise and Lexington. I want to follow your advice with Saratoga too, but the problem is she is already off map moving to CT and I have a spare Wildcat group sitting in San Diego. It takes 38 days to redeploy it to CT, which begs the questions:

a. is pilot training taking place while in transit?
b. only 3 USN airgroups will be left in WC for pilot training. Are they enough?




You need more for fighter training, but you can use the many float plane squadrons that you get in the San Diego - LA area to train fighter pilots (after you chase off the Jap subs).

EDIT - I am not positive, but I think training does take place during transit on a CV. If you just transfer the fighter squadron directly I think it is assumed to be on an xAK and no training would take place.




Olorin -> RE: Mr Kane (J) vs Olorin (A) (11/26/2016 10:10:41 AM)

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