Armor in China? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Scenario Design and Modding



Message


Big B -> Armor in China? (5/5/2015 3:51:15 PM)

I know this is from Wiki... but - where are these tanks in the OOB?
I searched through the DB and didn't see where they are represented? Maybe I missed it?


quote:

Sino-Japanese conflict – World War II
T-26 tanks of Chinese Nationalist Army during WW2

At the beginning of the war in 1937 the armour were organized in three armoured battalions, equipped with tanks and armoured cars from various countries. When the Second Sino-Japanese War broke out in earnest, the 1st and 2nd Armored Battalions participated in the Second Battle of Shanghai and the Battle of Nanking and were more or less completely destroyed by the Japanese forces. Many of the tanks were captured by the Japanese. By 1938 nearly half of China's armor was either captured or destroyed as out of the 96 tanks they started with, only 48 remained. China, at that time, had German advisors, but these were withdrawn as German relations with Japan warmed. In early 1938, the Japanese government had demanded that the German government withdraw all German advisers from China. Given the closer relations between the two nations, Hitler agreed and soon after they left China.

After the Germans left, the Soviet Union started to support the Nationalists. The National Revolutionary Army facing Japanese forces had only the small number of armoured vehicles and mechanised troops formed into the three armoured battalions to defend a large front. In August 1937, Chiang Kai-shek's government negotiated with the Soviet government for military aid for the War of China's Resistance Against Japan (1937–1945) during a signing of a Treaty of Non-Aggression between the Republic of China and the Soviet Union. The Soviets came in and began to provide Soviet advisers and Soviet tanks arrived in China for the first time in March 1938.[7] After these battalions were mostly destroyed in the Battle of Shanghai and Battle of Nanjing, new tanks, armoured cars and trucks from the Soviet Union and Italy made it possible to create the only mechanized division in the army. The Soviet advisers organized the new mechanised unit in China, the 200th Division, which consisted of one tank regiment and one motorised infantry regiment.
BT-5 Tank
Republic of China army operating the M3 Stuart on Ledo Road
Chinese troops on Stuart tanks
U.S. medium tanks, manned by Chinese and American crews, use the Burma Road for the first time after the combined Allied offensive had broken the two-year Japanese control of the only overland supply route to China., ca. 1945.

The USSR sold 82 T-26 mod. 1933 tanks to China as Russia was weary of having Japan on its back door. These tanks were shipped to Guangzhou harbour in the spring of 1938, and used to set up the first tank regiment of the 200th Infantry Division of the Chinese National Revolutionary Army, the only motorized infantry formation in the Chinese Army at that time. The 200th Infantry Division was a mechanized division consisting of four regiments, including a tank regiment equipped with the T-26s, an armoured car regiment, a mechanized infantry regiment, and an artillery regiment.

Chinese tank crews were trained under the supervision of Soviet specialists. The 200th Division was set up as the first mechanised division in the National Revolutionary Army by General Du Yuming, who was also its first commander. The tank regiments had 70 T-26, 4 BT-5, 20 ( 92? ) CV-33 tanks. The armoured car regiment had around 50 BA armoured cars and 12 ( 18? ) Leichter Panzerspähwagen (Sd Kfz 221) armoured cars. The tank regiment consisted of four tank battalions. Each tank battalion had three tank companies. The tank regiments had approximately 200 armoured fighting vehicles (AFVs). The Nationalist government bought 88 T-26 tanks and BA-10 and BA-20 armoured cars. These AFVs and remaining German AFVs were deployed in the 200th Division and the division finally saw action in late 1938. Its first action was against the 14th Division in the Battle of Lanfeng. Following the division's combat in the Battle of Lanfeng and in operations afterward until September 1938 the division's original subordinate mechanized units were placed under direct command of the 11th Army, and the division was reorganized. It inflicted the devastating defeat upon the Japanese army at the Battle of Kunlun Pass. It suffered heavy losses after the battle at Kunlun Pass in an offensive against Batang, losing nearly two thirds of its strength and was rebuilt and reorganized.

With the Soviet and Japanese non-aggression pact signing, this help from the Soviets went out the window and China started searching for allies. After signing the nonaggression pact with Germany and defeating the Kwangtung Army at Khalkin Gol, Russia started to withdraw its help from China.

Soon relations were made with the USA who only slowly began to (officially) provide help and 233 U.S. M2A4 light tanks were acquired by the Nationalists when America entered the war along with some 48 M3A3, M5A1 Stuart tanks in Lend/Lease from the USA in 1943, and 35 M4A4 Sherman tanks were acquired under the United States Military Assistance Program between 1943 and 1944.

Upon the American entry into the war in 1941, it began to supply China with AFVs which the Soviets were unable to provide. M3 Stuarts, M4 Shermans, and M18 Hellcats trickled in through Burma and formed part of the several well-equipped, well-trained armies that the Nationalists could deploy. These units were responsible for stopping numerous Japanese attacks during the later phases of the war.

The 200th Division also saw action in the Burma Theatre under Joseph Stilwell; it participated in the Battle of Yunnan-Burma Road in 1942 in the Burma campaign. The 200th Division distinguished itself in fighting in the Battle of Toungoo, and Battle of Hopong - Taunggyi but then suffered a disastrous defeat in the Battle of Hsipaw-Mogok Highway near the end of the campaign as it was attempting to retreat to China.[8] After World War II, the remaining Chinese T-26 tanks equipped the First Armoured Regiment of the Army of the Chinese Kuomintang government, which saw service in East China during the Chinese Civil War (1946–1950) where several T-26 tanks were destroyed or captured by the People's Liberation Army during the Huaihai Campaign in 1949.[9]


[image]local://upfiles/16855/8C74FE7B249547C69AB921A61962AD42.jpg[/image]




Yaab -> RE: Armor in China? (5/9/2015 4:16:20 AM)

I don't think the tanks are present in the stock or Babes scenarios. In the RHS mod, the Chinese T-26 tanks appear in TOEs of two units: the main Chinese HQ and 5th Group Army HQ.




Big B -> RE: Armor in China? (5/9/2015 7:56:22 PM)

Even RHS (though they did a splendid job with OOB) doesn't seem to account for them.
As to why they are totally missing elsewhere is a mystery to me.
But it seems some 300+ tanks have been left out of China's OOB (...an OOB completely bereft of any tanks at all)?

To paraphrase a well known movie - I can't help but to think of a fictitious conversation that may have gone something like this: [:D][;)]

quote:


Maj Fuller - The regular projector chap's at lunch,
sir. I'll have it in a moment.
Gen Browning - You're doing splendidly, Fuller.
Maj Fuller - Don't worry. I don't need lunch.
Damn. Nearly there, sir.
It's really worth your time, sir.
Believe me..
There.
Gen Browning - Splendid view of the Chinese countryside....Can't see any tanks.
Maj Fuller - Wait a moment, sir. It's a lot clearer in the next picture.
If I can just... Now.
Gen Browning - Next.
Maj Fuller - Yes, sir.
I've had this one enlarged.
Gen Browning - I shouldn't worry about them.
Maj Fuller - But, sir, you see
that they are tanks.
Gen Browning - I doubt if they're
fully serviceable.
Maj Fuller - Still got guns.
Gen Browning - Their only Chinese.
Maj Fuller - But, sir...
if they weren't serviceable,
why would they try to conceal them?
Gen Browning - Normal routine, Fuller.
Maj Fuller - But, sir, we keep getting reports
from the internet.
Gen Browning - I've read them!
And so has Field Marshal Montgomery.
Now look here.
There have been thousands of photographs
of Chinese units.
How many of them have shown tanks?
Maj Fuller - Just these, sir.
Gen Browning - And you seriously consider
asking us to change...the OOB
because of these photographs?
Maj Fuller - No, sir.
Gen Browning - Sixteen consecutive OOB's have been
changed in the last few months... for one reason or another.
But this time
the party's on...
and no one is going
to call it off.
Is that fully understood?
Maj Fuller - Yes, sir.



B




JeffK -> RE: Armor in China? (5/9/2015 10:29:00 PM)

The M3 Lights & M4s are included in the Provisional Tank Group (or it Battalions) and usually appear at Ramargh, India. They only get to China if the Road is open.

As for the T26 in 200 Division, I cant recall any reference to them being used in Burma, they would have had to traverse the Road as well so may have been detached (and stored for the final battle against the Reds)

PS Your bottom left photo is of M3 Lights fighting with PLA troops, so could be 1948-49




JeffK -> RE: Armor in China? (5/9/2015 10:52:36 PM)

A bit of a surprise, but still only 1 reference
From Fire & Fury http://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/pacburmachina1942_1.pdf
I have found them excellent

The 200th Infantry Division was the only such division in the
Chinese Expeditionary Force. Regarded as something of an élite, the
division had fought hard against the Japanese since 1939. However,
the division lost all its AFVs, transport and heavy equipment during the
fierce rearguard action at Taunggyi Burma in April 1942 and thereafter
was essentially the same as any other Chinese Infantry Division.

It is not clear as to exactly how much motor transport was held by
the three Infantry Regiments of 200th Division. It may be the case that
only a portion of each regiment (e.g. HQ, logistics, heavy weapons
and maybe the odd infantry company or battalion) was motorised, with
troop-carrying trucks being shared (as in British/Indian Infantry
Brigades).

The Chinese 1st Tank Regiment was originally a large, three-
battalion regiment, equipped with T-26B Light Tanks, BT-5 Fast Tanks
and CV-33 Tankettes. However, following hard battles in 1940 and a
complete lack of replacements or spares following the entry of Italy
and the USSR into World War Two, this number was likely to be
greatly reduced. It is our guess that the regiment had probably been
reduced to a battalion by the time it entered Burma in 1942.

The 200th Division’s Cavalry Regiment (originally designated in
1940 as an ‘Armoured Car Regiment’) is known to have been
equipped with BA-6, BA-20 & Sdkfz 221/223 in 1940, but the
equipment holdings for 1942 are not known. It seems to have been a
single battalion-sized unit. There are references to horsed cavalry and
armoured cars in Burma circa 1942, so it seems likely that the
regiment replaced some squadrons with horsed cavalry as the supply
of armoured cars ran out




JeffK -> RE: Armor in China? (5/9/2015 11:32:27 PM)

A thread from the AxisHistory Forum,

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=124083




Big B -> RE: Armor in China? (5/12/2015 3:28:29 AM)

Yes, I found the unit you refer to - Provisional Tank Brigade (DB Locations Slot 5223), appearing in Sep 43 (fair enough as far as that goes)...but they are an American Army unit with 100 M3's...not quite accurate it appears. Seems it should also include M4A4 Sherman's...but most importantly - they should be Chinese Army (as they are Chinese crewed).

I guess the Editor is the only solution, it just seems an oversight that could be delved into....not to mention the T-26's and other Chinese armor missing.

B

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

The M3 Lights & M4s are included in the Provisional Tank Group (or it Battalions) and usually appear at Ramargh, India. They only get to China if the Road is open.

As for the T26 in 200 Division, I cant recall any reference to them being used in Burma, they would have had to traverse the Road as well so may have been detached (and stored for the final battle against the Reds)

PS Your bottom left photo is of M3 Lights fighting with PLA troops, so could be 1948-49





witpqs -> RE: Armor in China? (5/12/2015 3:58:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Yes, I found the unit you refer to - Provisional Tank Brigade (DB Locations Slot 5223), appearing in Sep 43 (fair enough as far as that goes)...but they are an American Army unit with 100 M3's...not quite accurate it appears. Seems it should also include M4A4 Sherman's...but most importantly - they should be Chinese Army (as they are Chinese crewed).

I guess the Editor is the only solution, it just seems an oversight that could be delved into....not to mention the T-26's and other Chinese armor missing.

B

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

The M3 Lights & M4s are included in the Provisional Tank Group (or it Battalions) and usually appear at Ramargh, India. They only get to China if the Road is open.
Check Babes. IIRC that unit does include Shermans in Babes.

As for the T26 in 200 Division, I cant recall any reference to them being used in Burma, they would have had to traverse the Road as well so may have been detached (and stored for the final battle against the Reds)

PS Your bottom left photo is of M3 Lights fighting with PLA troops, so could be 1948-49







JeffK -> RE: Armor in China? (5/12/2015 7:06:51 AM)

I believe the Prov Tank Group was formed with ex British Stuarts.

The M4 also came from British stock, Sherman V I believe, but not as original equipment and only at approx 1 Company per Battalion.

Only 1st Battalion, with 1 American company and 2 Chinese companies saw combat.

It also had an assault gun battery of 3 M7 Priest's




el cid again -> RE: Armor in China? (4/25/2016 10:55:40 AM)

These tanks were supplied by the USSR in sufficient numbers that the ROC was able to form the 200th Tank Division.
It was very successful - but BEFORE the Pearl Harbor. By that time, most of the tanks were expended. So the 200th
lost its tanks, and became a motorized division (still very successful, with truck mounted infantry supported by
armored cars and motorized artillery). Most of the remaining tanks formed a company in its parent unit, the 5th Group
Army (Corps HQ). Both these units appear in RHS. As well, the ROC HQ has a "platoon" of these - mainly for show -
at Chunking. Over time, the US supplies Stuarts and then Shermans, and all these units upgrade to first Stuarts,
then to Shermans, later in the war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Even RHS (though they did a splendid job with OOB) doesn't seem to account for them.
As to why they are totally missing elsewhere is a mystery to me.
But it seems some 300+ tanks have been left out of China's OOB (...an OOB completely bereft of any tanks at all)?

To paraphrase a well known movie - I can't help but to think of a fictitious conversation that may have gone something like this: [:D][;)]

quote:


Maj Fuller - The regular projector chap's at lunch,
sir. I'll have it in a moment.
Gen Browning - You're doing splendidly, Fuller.
Maj Fuller - Don't worry. I don't need lunch.
Damn. Nearly there, sir.
It's really worth your time, sir.
Believe me..
There.
Gen Browning - Splendid view of the Chinese countryside....Can't see any tanks.
Maj Fuller - Wait a moment, sir. It's a lot clearer in the next picture.
If I can just... Now.
Gen Browning - Next.
Maj Fuller - Yes, sir.
I've had this one enlarged.
Gen Browning - I shouldn't worry about them.
Maj Fuller - But, sir, you see
that they are tanks.
Gen Browning - I doubt if they're
fully serviceable.
Maj Fuller - Still got guns.
Gen Browning - Their only Chinese.
Maj Fuller - But, sir...
if they weren't serviceable,
why would they try to conceal them?
Gen Browning - Normal routine, Fuller.
Maj Fuller - But, sir, we keep getting reports
from the internet.
Gen Browning - I've read them!
And so has Field Marshal Montgomery.
Now look here.
There have been thousands of photographs
of Chinese units.
How many of them have shown tanks?
Maj Fuller - Just these, sir.
Gen Browning - And you seriously consider
asking us to change...the OOB
because of these photographs?
Maj Fuller - No, sir.
Gen Browning - Sixteen consecutive OOB's have been
changed in the last few months... for one reason or another.
But this time
the party's on...
and no one is going
to call it off.
Is that fully understood?
Maj Fuller - Yes, sir.



B





Yaab -> RE: Armor in China? (4/25/2016 11:27:30 AM)

So how exactly did the Stuarts and Shermans made their way to China? They didn' t fit on transport planes in Leo, Rangoon - Myitkina road was controlled by Japs and the Burma Road from Ledo to China was still under construction. Did the Chinese receive them only in 1945 or earlier and by what means?

In the game you can create them from China-generated supplies once they are available in the pools.




el cid again -> RE: Armor in China? (4/27/2016 7:34:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

So how exactly did the Stuarts and Shermans made their way to China? They didn' t fit on transport planes in Leo, Rangoon - Myitkina road was controlled by Japs and the Burma Road from Ledo to China was still under construction. Did the Chinese receive them only in 1945 or earlier and by what means?

In the game you can create them from China-generated supplies once they are available in the pools.


Overland, using the Ledo Road, which is why they arrive so late in the war.




afspret -> RE: Armor in China? (5/5/2016 5:46:06 AM)

In my mod to Ironman I changed the Chinese 200th Div to an armored one and added some Russian devices, mainly light tanks, arm cars & arty. When I start the game its shown on the map as a Chinese unit, but at the start of the second turn the icon changed from the color of a Chinese unit to a red one and becomes a Russian unit, which I cannot do anything with, for obvious reason. Also, the CO changed from a Chinese general to a Russian one. This repeated several times, so I ended up removing all the Russian devices and replacing them with comparable US, Dutch & Brit devices. Just curious if anyone has any ideas on why this might have happened?




el cid again -> RE: Armor in China? (5/6/2016 6:17:27 AM)

The solution here is to define the Russian devices as Chinese. I have T-26 tanks - which only CAME FROM
Russia. They are CHINESE and that is why the work in the NRA (more generally called ROC in AE - its real
name is NRA = National Revolutionary Army).


quote:

ORIGINAL: afspret

In my mod to Ironman I changed the Chinese 200th Div to an armored one and added some Russian devices, mainly light tanks, arm cars & arty. When I start the game its shown on the map as a Chinese unit, but at the start of the second turn the icon changed from the color of a Chinese unit to a red one and becomes a Russian unit, which I cannot do anything with, for obvious reason. Also, the CO changed from a Chinese general to a Russian one. This repeated several times, so I ended up removing all the Russian devices and replacing them with comparable US, Dutch & Brit devices. Just curious if anyone has any ideas on why this might have happened?





Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
4.199219E-02