Enough fuel? (Full Version)

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Bozo_the_Clown -> Enough fuel? (9/11/2013 3:14:52 AM)

In one of my games as Soviets. South of Leningrad four tank and mechanized units get a little bit of fuel delivered. One of them with 261 Ju-52. [X(][X(][X(]

I'm just glad there is a cap on movement points. Otherwise that unit would go all the way to the Ural in one turn. [:D]

It's a nice idea. I think he does HQ buildups in front of Smolensk and concentrates all transports in front of Leningrad. To his credit, he is not using bombers for fuel supply.

Should be an interesting game!



[image]local://upfiles/45102/F4FA41EB0C264DBF8B689E1BA268CC6A.jpg[/image]




Marquo -> RE: Enough fuel? (9/11/2013 12:13:56 PM)

The flying fuel fairies strike again [&:]. Don't complain, I still can't log back into our game. Hopefully someone from Slitherine will figure it out soon; I want to see what your little elves did to me [X(]





Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Enough fuel? (9/11/2013 12:24:06 PM)

I'm not complaining. I'm not in the realism crowd. It's a nice strategy to concentrate everything in one spot. It works well because you can build the rail lines so fast going north.

But here are a couple of question regarding the game mechanics. How much fuel does a unit actually need for 50 MP? If a unit gets 500 t of fuel delivered what happens to the leftover fuel at the end of the turn? Does it stay in the unit or does it go back to the HQ?





Gabriel B. -> RE: Enough fuel? (9/11/2013 12:40:17 PM)

Depends : 129 tons for LSAH , 386 tons for 3rd pz div.

Stays with the unit.




Marquo -> RE: Enough fuel? (9/11/2013 11:25:57 PM)

From the manual; quiz tomorrow.

14.1.2. Determining Movement Point Allowances
The following steps are used by the computer to determine a unitís MP allowance during the logistics phase at the start of a turn:
1) Start with base MPs (14.1.1)
2) Calculate average fatigue of the unit based on the number and fatigue of each type of ground element. Reduce the number of MP's by the average fatigue divided by ten, rounded down.
3) Check for leader initiative. If all leaders in the chain of command fail the initiative check, then multiply MPs remaining by 80 percent, rounding down.
4) Check for leader admin. If all leaders in chain of command fail the admin check, then multiply MPs remaining by 80 percent, rounding down. Note that units that did not move in the previous turn will automatically pass their next turn's admin check.
5) Determine if fuel (motorized unit) or supplies (non-motorized unit) is sufficient to enable the unit to use the remaining MPs it has. For example, if a motorized unit has only 50 percent of its base MPs remaining after steps 1 through 4, it will only require 50 percent of fuel needed. If fuel on hand is 60 percent of what the unit needs to use its remaining MPs, then it can only move 60 percent of those MPs, rounded down.
6) If a non-motorized unit, reset the unit's MPs to eight if determined to be lower than eight. If a motorized unit with zero MPs, reset the unitís MPs to one.
7) If the movement point allowance is greater than 16 and the unit is motorized, check to see if the vehicle shortage penalty applies. This penalty creates a maximum number of MPs the unit may have during the turn. For motorized units the maximum is equal to 16 + (34 * (vehicles in unit/vehicles required by unit. The maximum will never be less than 16.
As an example of the above rules, a motorized Axis unit that has 80 percent of its required vehicles will start with a base MP of 50. If average fatigue were 22, then the unit MP would be reduced by 2 to 48. If all the leaders in its chain of command failed their initiative and admin checks, the unitís MPs would be reduced first to 38 and then to 30. As 30 is 60 percent of the base MP of 50, the unit would need at least 60 percent of required supplies in order to move 30 MPs; if it had only 45 percent of its supply needs, its MPs would be lowered to 22. Since the unit has 80 percent of its vehicles, it has a maximum of 16 + (34*.8) or 43 MPs. Since the unit has only 22 MP, it is not affected further by the vehicle shortage. Had the unit had 100 percent of its fuel and had passed the leader and admin checks, instead of having 48 MPs the unit would be reduced to 43 M




Ketza -> RE: Enough fuel? (9/12/2013 2:41:37 AM)

Where are your fighters?




Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Enough fuel? (9/12/2013 4:22:04 AM)

Good question. I have intercept set to 300% but I think my airbases are too far away. I had to move them because he is rushing towards Leningrad. I don't want his tanks to plow over my airfields and get even more fuel.

Any hints regarding fighter intercepts would be welcome.




loki100 -> RE: Enough fuel? (9/12/2013 7:41:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

Good question. I have intercept set to 300% but I think my airbases are too far away. I had to move them because he is rushing towards Leningrad. I don't want his tanks to plow over my airfields and get even more fuel.

Any hints regarding fighter intercepts would be welcome.


I made this mistake - 300% means the mission will only kick in if you have 3 times what the AI thinks it needs. So if you want more missions then you need to set the value <100%. Not very intuitive, but I was very proud that I'd decided to proritise interdiction in one game, only to find that it was actually set to be the rarest mission I was carrying out




Gabriel B. -> RE: Enough fuel? (9/12/2013 9:31:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

Good question. I have intercept set to 300% but I think my airbases are too far away. I had to move them because he is rushing towards Leningrad. I don't want his tanks to plow over my airfields and get even more fuel.

Any hints regarding fighter intercepts would be welcome.



keep in mind that , transports can arive heavily excorted .

[image]local://upfiles/45093/BE1837E2E2CE465282AB3EA232D28B30.gif[/image]




SigUp -> RE: Enough fuel? (9/12/2013 10:40:38 AM)

Well yeah, but it's not like the Soviet really cares about aircraft losses in July 1941. [:D]




Gabriel B. -> RE: Enough fuel? (9/12/2013 12:32:18 PM)

The point was getting trough to the bombers/tranports which is near imposible when a full Jagdgeschwader is present .







Marquo -> RE: Enough fuel? (9/12/2013 1:40:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

Good question. I have intercept set to 300% but I think my airbases are too far away. I had to move them because he is rushing towards Leningrad. I don't want his tanks to plow over my airfields and get even more fuel.

Any hints regarding fighter intercepts would be welcome.


I made this mistake - 300% means the mission will only kick in if you have 3 times what the AI thinks it needs. So if you want more missions then you need to set the value <100%. Not very intuitive, but I was very proud that I'd decided to proritise interdiction in one game, only to find that it was actually set to be the rarest mission I was carrying out



Loki100,

Not sure you are correct.

"Fighter and Night Fighter Intercept: Determines the number of intercepting fighters based on a percentage of the number of enemy aircraft attacking. For example, at a setting of 50, the computer will select air group units in an attempt to have the number of fighter aircraft intercepting equal half the number of attacking aircraft."

"Ground Support, Interdiction Attack, Ground Attack, Airfield Attack and City Attack: Determines the number of bombers that the computer will attempt to have participate in a ground support or strike mission as a percentage of what the computer would normally attempt to send. For example, a setting of 50 results in the computer selecting air group units in an attempt to equal half the number of bombers it would select in a notional strike."

As for the fighters, I suspect that settings of 200-300 work based on above and devs recommendations; the question is whether it is all or nothing: does the AI come with a number X and fly as many fighters as possible even if less than X are available or does it simply abort because there are not enough? Same question for the interdiction mission.





morvael -> RE: Enough fuel? (9/12/2013 1:48:30 PM)

I think as loki100 does, that when you select too high and they can't match the numbers they won't fly. Plus, when they fly against one strike en masse there are no planes left for another strike (miles flown). Therefore by using lower setting you conserve air groups if there will be more than one air strike in their area.




Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Enough fuel? (9/12/2013 2:02:04 PM)

Thanks for the advice. I will experiment with the settings.




Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Enough fuel? (9/12/2013 2:45:07 PM)

quote:

14.1.2. Determining Movement Point Allowances
The following steps are used by the computer to determine a unitís MP allowance during the logistics phase at the start of a turn:
1) Start with base MPs (14.1.1)
2) Calculate average fatigue of the unit based on the number and fatigue of each type of ground element. Reduce the number of MP's by the average fatigue divided by ten, rounded down.
3) Check for leader initiative. If all leaders in the chain of command fail the initiative check, then multiply MPs remaining by 80 percent, rounding down.
4) Check for leader admin. If all leaders in chain of command fail the admin check, then multiply MPs remaining by 80 percent, rounding down. Note that units that did not move in the previous turn will automatically pass their next turn's admin check.
5) Determine if fuel (motorized unit) or supplies (non-motorized unit) is sufficient to enable the unit to use the remaining MPs it has. For example, if a motorized unit has only 50 percent of its base MPs remaining after steps 1 through 4, it will only require 50 percent of fuel needed. If fuel on hand is 60 percent of what the unit needs to use its remaining MPs, then it can only move 60 percent of those MPs, rounded down.
6) If a non-motorized unit, reset the unit's MPs to eight if determined to be lower than eight. If a motorized unit with zero MPs, reset the unitís MPs to one.
7) If the movement point allowance is greater than 16 and the unit is motorized, check to see if the vehicle shortage penalty applies. This penalty creates a maximum number of MPs the unit may have during the turn. For motorized units the maximum is equal to 16 + (34 * (vehicles in unit/vehicles required by unit. The maximum will never be less than 16.
As an example of the above rules, a motorized Axis unit that has 80 percent of its required vehicles will start with a base MP of 50. If average fatigue were 22, then the unit MP would be reduced by 2 to 48. If all the leaders in its chain of command failed their initiative and admin checks, the unitís MPs would be reduced first to 38 and then to 30. As 30 is 60 percent of the base MP of 50, the unit would need at least 60 percent of required supplies in order to move 30 MPs; if it had only 45 percent of its supply needs, its MPs would be lowered to 22. Since the unit has 80 percent of its vehicles, it has a maximum of 16 + (34*.8) or 43 MPs. Since the unit has only 22 MP, it is not affected further by the vehicle shortage. Had the unit had 100 percent of its fuel and had passed the leader and admin checks, instead of having 48 MPs the unit would be reduced to 43 M


Thanks, Marquo. It's good to remember that fuel isn't the only deciding factor for MPs. Although, I rarely get units with less than 48/49 MPs if they have maximum fuel.




Walloc -> RE: Enough fuel? (9/12/2013 3:46:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

Thanks, Marquo. It's good to remember that fuel isn't the only deciding factor for MPs. Although, I rarely get units with less than 48/49 MPs if they have maximum fuel.



Its near impossible to get back to 0 in fatigue so even if u sitting mometarily resting that residual fatigue will always cause 1-2 points to drop. With full fuel and all leader checks made.

Playing at stopping Pz/mot for recovering fatigue is another good way to reduce their ops tempo as russian not that that doesnt have a cost and depence on sitasion and german player skill to allow u that or not as teh case might be.

Kind regards,


Rasmus




Pelton -> RE: Enough fuel? (9/20/2013 7:04:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

Good question. I have intercept set to 300% but I think my airbases are too far away. I had to move them because he is rushing towards Leningrad. I don't want his tanks to plow over my airfields and get even more fuel.

Any hints regarding fighter intercepts would be welcome.


I made this mistake - 300% means the mission will only kick in if you have 3 times what the AI thinks it needs. So if you want more missions then you need to set the value <100%. Not very intuitive, but I was very proud that I'd decided to proritise interdiction in one game, only to find that it was actually set to be the rarest mission I was carrying out



Loki100,

Not sure you are correct.

"Fighter and Night Fighter Intercept: Determines the number of intercepting fighters based on a percentage of the number of enemy aircraft attacking. For example, at a setting of 50, the computer will select air group units in an attempt to have the number of fighter aircraft intercepting equal half the number of attacking aircraft."

"Ground Support, Interdiction Attack, Ground Attack, Airfield Attack and City Attack: Determines the number of bombers that the computer will attempt to have participate in a ground support or strike mission as a percentage of what the computer would normally attempt to send. For example, a setting of 50 results in the computer selecting air group units in an attempt to equal half the number of bombers it would select in a notional strike."

As for the fighters, I suspect that settings of 200-300 work based on above and devs recommendations; the question is whether it is all or nothing: does the AI come with a number X and fly as many fighters as possible even if less than X are available or does it simply abort because there are not enough? Same question for the interdiction mission.




Your missing one thing, the commanders rating.

Its the ONLY thing that matters in the air war.

How high or low it is determines how many planes are called up.

11.2.5 read the rules.




Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Enough fuel? (9/20/2013 1:06:57 PM)

quote:

Its the ONLY thing that matters in the air war.


Cool, I will try that out next time. It explains a lot as I have not changed any air commanders.[sm=sign0031.gif]




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